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Thread: HOA's and GUN rules..

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I was going to use one of my HOA's facilities to teach a gun class but they wanted ALOT. Like 15% of the take if I charged a fee. No GUNS in the building during the class... they just wanted me to talk or show slides I guess.. Liability insurance of FIVE MILLION dollars and the HOA listed as "additional insured".

    So.. needless to say.. I will hold my classes somewhere else.. I did however get them to print a "safety" article in their newsletter.. Hey.. it's a start!

    Ed

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    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    And a question... could a handful of Anti's (like an HOA) post at all facilities and "vote amongst themselves" that no firearms are allowed on any common area (like the pool house, etc) If they/we the association owns the property (as private property) but I too am an owner? These 10 people represent 14,000 residents in 6500+ homes.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    might want to check your bylaws, but they sure could, if they had the required votes. However, I'd tell them promptly to ****. I hate hoas, and hate the fact that in one week ill be a member of one.

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    EFB16ACRX wrote:
    might want to check your bylaws, but they sure could, if they had the required votes. However, I'd tell them promptly to ****. I hate hoas, and hate the fact that in one week ill be a member of one.
    I am pretty sure curtilage provisions in our statues ensures they can't do this.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I can't stand them, either. A bunch of little wannabe-Nazis. I have never had a complaint lodged against me by another resident but here's what I would do should this happen.

    If I were to receive a letter from the HOA stating that, "A complaint has been made against your....", I would reply in the following with something along these lines.

    "I will be happy to work with you towards resolving this issue. Please supply the name(s) and address(es) of the complaintants in writing to me so that we may begin this process."

    Of course, they're not going to want to do this, and my response would be that the Sixth Amendment clearly states that I have a right to "be confronted with the witnesses against" me. So unless I am supplied with the names and addresses requested, there is nothing I can do to help them.

    As for HOA's and disallowing guns in community buildings, if it is not in the bylaws, I should think there is nothing they can do about it.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    I am pretty sure curtilage provisions in our statues ensures they can't do this.
    I'm pretty sure curtilage has nothing to do with Ed's circumstance. He was trying to rent a room in an HOA-owned building, which is in no way associated with the curtilage of Ed's house.

    I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that an HOA can prohibit firearms from their property, as long as they go about it the right way. Not that I'd agree with that action, of course, but there's not a shred of doubt in my mind that the HOA would win a legal challenge.

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    TexasNative wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    I am pretty sure curtilage provisions in our statues ensures they can't do this.
    I'm pretty sure curtilage has nothing to do with Ed's circumstance. He was trying to rent a room in an HOA-owned building, which is in no way associated with the curtilage of Ed's house.

    I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that an HOA can prohibit firearms from their property, as long as they go about it the right way. Not that I'd agree with that action, of course, but there's not a shred of doubt in my mind that the HOA would win a legal challenge.
    It looked as if EFB16ACRX was speaking to his second statement, which becomes a question of where does curtilage stop at.

    It would really depend on the case law surrounding curtilage as posted in this and other threads: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/7291-3.html



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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    The post you linked was all about apartment buildings, and that's not what we're talking about here. It would be a huge leap to consider HOA buildings, such as those found in Cascades, to be curtilage.

    I've spent quite a few years on the Board of Directors of a homeowners association, with a top-notch lawyer as our legal counsel. We never addressed the issue of firearms, but if I extrapolate from the various actions and issues I was involved in there, I still feel confident that a court would uphold an HOA's prohibition of firearms in their buildings.

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    TexasNative wrote:
    The post you linked was all about apartment buildings, and that's not what we're talking about here. It would be a huge leap to consider HOA buildings, such as those found in Cascades, to be curtilage.

    I've spent quite a few years on the Board of Directors of a homeowners association, with a top-notch lawyer as our legal counsel. We never addressed the issue of firearms, but if I extrapolate from the various actions and issues I was involved in there, I still feel confident that a court would uphold an HOA's prohibition of firearms in their buildings.
    I'd have to agree as a HOA is a Private not a Public entity thatan individualwillingly and contractually agreed to be part of and follow whenthey purchasedtheir house.

    See the case of the Marine in Henrico County who had to remove his flagpoles from his property in the Wyndham Subdivision.

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    HOA's have some serious power on almost everything to do with your home and the area. I know of one area of Charlotte, NC the HOA has contracted with a landscaping company to mow everyone's front yard at the same time and is paid from the HOA dues. One fellow anted to mow his own front yard when he did the back yard just as a hobby of working in the yard. The HOA took him to court and won. Contrary to some places where you get fined for not mowing your grasshe can't mow his own front yard. I imagine if they can do that then they can probably ban guns from the public areas.

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    TexasNative wrote:
    The post you linked was all about apartment buildings, and that's not what we're talking about here. It would be a huge leap to consider HOA buildings, such as those found in Cascades, to be curtilage.

    I've spent quite a few years on the Board of Directors of a homeowners association, with a top-notch lawyer as our legal counsel. We never addressed the issue of firearms, but if I extrapolate from the various actions and issues I was involved in there, I still feel confident that a court would uphold an HOA's prohibition of firearms in their buildings.
    Thus why I added a qualifier.

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    I wonder if they can change the HOA by-laws to ban weapons after you already live there.

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    JosephMingle wrote:
    I wonder if they can change the HOA by-laws to ban weapons after you already live there.
    Yes, it they follow the proper procedures to amend the by-laws. They are limited by the powers defined in the by-laws and granted or restricted by state/local laws.
    ---

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    Wow, I guess this is another pitfall I need to look into as I consider buying a house in the next year.

    Where do these HOAs get their "power" anyway? How are they permitted to totally trample private property rights?

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    ok, let me rephrase. The hoa can tell you not to carry on their community properties, and you can ignore them, and nothing will happen. As far as the class? Well, id have to say im not surprised.

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    asforme wrote:
    Wow, I guess this is another pitfall I need to look into as I consider buying a house in the next year.

    Where do these HOAs get their "power" anyway? How are they permitted to totally trample private property rights?
    Be sure to keep the two points straight: the HOA undoubtedly has the power to ban firearms from their property, just as any property owner has that power. They cannot prevent you from having guns in your house, or transporting them to and from your house.

    Their power is contractual, which is arguably the strongest power available in our legal system. Every member (i.e., homeowner) agreed on the HOA's powers when they bought their home.

    And as far as guns are concerned, they're not trampling on anyone's property rights. They could try, of course, but just as certain as I am that they have the power to ban guns on HOA property, I'm certain that they'd have their patooties handed to them in court if they tried to ban guns from homes.

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    TexasNative wrote:
    asforme wrote:
    Wow, I guess this is another pitfall I need to look into as I consider buying a house in the next year.

    Where do these HOAs get their "power" anyway? How are they permitted to totally trample private property rights?
    Be sure to keep the two points straight: the HOA undoubtedly has the power to ban firearms from their property, just as any property owner has that power. They cannot prevent you from having guns in your house, or transporting them to and from your house.

    Their power is contractual, which is arguably the strongest power available in our legal system. Every member (i.e., homeowner) agreed on the HOA's powers when they bought their home.

    And as far as guns are concerned, they're not trampling on anyone's property rights. They could try, of course, but just as certain as I am that they have the power to ban guns on HOA property, I'm certain that they'd have their patooties handed to them in court if they tried to ban guns from homes.
    I understand this, but I don't want some neo-nazi group telling me I can or can't mow my lawn or whatever else they want to do either. If it's contractual, what if I simply don't sign it?

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    A condition of the deed is that you must sign the agreement. If you don't, you can't buy the property.

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    asforme wrote:
    Where do these HOAs get their "power" anyway? How are they permitted to totally trample private property rights?
    1.) From Code of Virginia, Title 55, Chapter 26 - Property Owners' Association Act

    2.) From the the convenants being associated with the deed of the home/property you buying.

    Good or bad, one purpose of HOAs is to provide city like services to a specific audience. Some people want pools, trails, playgrounds, trash collection, etc while the rest of the people in that locality don't want to pay taxes to provide these services. So, you end up with a HOA that provides those services to a specific area.

    The other purpose is that nebulous concept of "maintaining property value". It's hard to quantify but usual means rules like "grass must be not taller than X inches", "Colonial Williamsburg exterior colors", "no chain link fences", and "no basketball goals visible from front yard".
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    One way to obtain full and non-negotiable ownership of your real property is to obtain an allodial title. With such, you fully and completely own the property, free from leins, encumberances, taxes, and eminent domain captures. It is inalienable and cannot be taken as a result of any "operation of law" for any reason.

    Clearly, you will never see this form of title bestowed upon a homeowner in a developement where an HOA holds the residents hostage.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Perhaps we should be pushing for a statute to protect gun owners who live in HOA's from overzealous HOA's that wish to strip their rights away.

    HOA's have their uses, which can be good. But a lot seem like mini-dictatorships.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    Perhaps we should be pushing for a statute to protect gun owners who live in HOA's from overzealous HOA's that wish to strip their rights away.

    HOA's have their uses, which can be good. But a lot seem like mini-dictatorships.
    And as far as their power goes regarding limiting or restricting your civil rights, they just cannot do that. By this I mean they cannot restrict your ownership and carrying of arms on your property, sidewalks, or streets within the development. If I am not mistaken, I think that type of criminal behavior on their part has already been tested in court.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    Perhaps we should be pushing for a statute to protect gun owners who live in HOA's from overzealous HOA's that wish to strip their rights away.

    HOA's have their uses, which can be good. But a lot seem like mini-dictatorships.
    And as far as their power goes regarding limiting or restricting your civil rights, they just cannot do that. By this I mean they cannot restrict your ownership and carrying of arms on your property, sidewalks, or streets within the development. If I am not mistaken, I think that type of criminal behavior on their part has already been tested in court.
    I've heard of them telling homeowners that they couldn't put political signs in their yards. Sounds like a civil rights violation to me.

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    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    Perhaps we should be pushing for a statute to protect gun owners who live in HOA's from overzealous HOA's that wish to strip their rights away.

    HOA's have their uses, which can be good. But a lot seem like mini-dictatorships.
    I personally have no use whatsoever for an HOA, but they are popping up all over even out in the country.

    In fact when it turned out a property we were going to buy was under an HOA we got out of the contract because they had not given us the bylaws. I mean, buying 10 acre plus property, 15 miles from the closest traffic light, no way in heck I am gonna submit to being micro-managed by a bunch of petty tyrants.

    Sorry - I mean an additional bunch of petty tyrants in addition to the ones I am already saddled with in our politicial leadership.:celebrate

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    asforme wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    Perhaps we should be pushing for a statute to protect gun owners who live in HOA's from overzealous HOA's that wish to strip their rights away.

    HOA's have their uses, which can be good. But a lot seem like mini-dictatorships.
    And as far as their power goes regarding limiting or restricting your civil rights, they just cannot do that. By this I mean they cannot restrict your ownership and carrying of arms on your property, sidewalks, or streets within the development. If I am not mistaken, I think that type of criminal behavior on their part has already been tested in court.
    I've heard of them telling homeowners that they couldn't put political signs in their yards. Sounds like a civil rights violation to me.
    Yes it does.. just like putting up a flag pole to flag our flag. I wonder if they get away with these crimes under the guise of altering the exterior appearance of the property?

    I suspect some of these things could really be skating on thin ice with them.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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