you got hassled in ferndale? figured that for one of the few towns it'd be considered okay.
It was in the thread about Businesses that Ban Guns that I described an OC incident at Key Bank in Ferndale, and over several days how that played out. If you want the details, you can look at that thread. FWIW, the outcome was positive for the guns, and Key Bank and the Ferndale PD came out winners. I was a really happy camper.
Tonight I went to the Haggen store, also in Ferndale, as I do almost daily. I had been in the store about ten minutes when the general manager approached me and very politely informed me that he had seen me in the store several times (I've been OC'ing every day now for about 3 weeks). He said he had received complaints from customers almost on a daily basis. I asked him if his basis for stopping me was a written company policy. He dodged the question; likely he didn't know. He was very courteous the whole time, but he explained that as a businessman he does not want to lose customers, referring to the people who complained to him. I explained about the RCW, but that didn't seem to matter, though he didn't try to dispute me. This is strictly a business issue for him. He was suggesting (and it was a suggestion, not a direct request) that I not OC in his store. The matter was left unresolved.
After two incidents in less than a week, I am now questioning whether OC is worth the hassle. Frankly, in my entire life I have never been confronted with a situation where I would have needed a gun, except once about 45 years ago in a dispute over a parking place when a guy brandished a tire iron at me. Even though the Key Bank incident ended positively for gunowners it was stressful; the incident at Haggen only two days after the bank incident is just too much. I am seriously considering quitting OC. Is there something I am missing here?
you got hassled in ferndale? figured that for one of the few towns it'd be considered okay.
You cleared up the Key Bank thing, that is a victory. As far as Haagen/Top Foods goes, I would say unless the manager has the stones to ask you flat out to quit carrying, or can show you corporate policy he was just trying to play all sides of the fence. Since he didn't flat out tell you to conceal my guess is either there is no policy on the matter, or if there is it reflects state law. Speak to Haagen Corporate about it.
It ain't hasselin' until a cop has you cuffed or with a gun out! :P
Cheer up man! A couple of minor confrontations should not change how you do things. Some of us here have never had a confrontation, others have been seriously jacked up by cops. YMMV.
Relax, conceal for a while and study up on the matter some more!
Richard6218 wrote:You're just running into the very reason to OC. People who aren't willing to recognize it as a basic human right.SNIP Is there something I am missing here?
I've had many more positive encounters than negative. The truth is, plenty of people are not upset by it. They understand that a peaceable citizen is not a danger.
I can't force you to continue to OC, but if you knuckle under the gun-phobes have won.
With that said, if you only OC for enjoyment, or comfort, I can't criticize you for giving it up.
Me? My first reason to OC is to exercise the right because a right unexercised is lost. My second reason is to promote the 2nd Amendment. Comfort, convenience, and tactics are lower on my list.
If you approach it with a concrete goal in mind, you find yourself preparing for encounters mentally. For me, I want people to ask me about it so I can promote the 2A to them. Thus, I'm looking for opportunities to talk. And I've prepared myself for most any objector, from the casual to the nutcase. Fortunately I've encountered only one nutcase, the other couple objectors were very mild.
Another thing to consider is that when CC'ing, you are not exercising a right, but a government controlled privilege. Only OC is a constitutional right.
I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.
If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?
There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.
to give you another perspective on this, I have been in Haggen's both yesterday and today.
I got no hassle, and actually was strong side to the manager at one point.
Usually a friendly conversation with one or more clerks of various sorts in there.
Went in the bank today, too. Got friendly service from the teller there. I know she noticed, cause her glance ay my Glock was more than casual.
Was in a couple other stores. All positive. One even yanked out a letter to the ed itor from the Seattle PI about the recent SCOTUS decision. "Liberal loonies" the letter writers were referenced. Store owner said he was glad folks such as I were packing. It kept the BGs at bay.
As to the frequency of need for a sidearm, I have needed one twice in 35 years. Both times I had one at the ready, and was very glad I did. In one instance my family (with kids 12 and 10 at the time) most certainly would have come to harm.
You may only need that piece once in your life. But the day you do you will be mighty glad you have it at hand.
I live in Blaine and OC in Haggen Ferndale on a pretty regular basis. I have never had a problem there. I'd say let it go unless it comes up again and then politely ask the manager what corporate policy is. Whatever he says, call or write corporate and ask for official verification. I'd be more than happy to sit down with you to make the calls or write the letters.
FWIW I suspect the manager is exaggerating. I don't think that most people even notice you have a gun, let alone take the time to find someone to complain to. Even if they do, the best tactic, assuming that the corporate policy is not anti-firearm is to educate the manager so that he starts telling complainants that it is perfectly legal.
Welcome to OC. Not everyone gets it but as Rush says, "I am not going to retire until everyone agrees with me". Sounds like a good goal for firearms rights.
So you will let the fear of the sheeple conform you into their herd?
Well it is tough. And I understand. I have been involved with guns and the shooting public most of my life and never knew about open carry till the local paper brought it to light. Thus I ended up here. Though I have dabbled with open carry I have not yet stuck my neck out. I have been passing info to my gun friends and their reaction have been mixed.
One friend tonight X-LEO said "Why screw it up? Washington is one of the best states for gun owners. If you upset enough people they may change the law or require more training." Having seen game laws change over the years and the banning of hound hunting he might not be far off base.
All of my friends CC. Non of them have shown an interest in open carry except around hunting camp. I can see it might be easier in a group. Most of the public just does not get it.
So I understand where you are coming from. The others have given good advice and are more experienced
WOW!!!!! I never imagined I would see so much feedback in such a short time. And thanks to all of you for the support. I was really bummed when I wrote this post.
The point that giving up would only be handing the gun-haters a victory is well taken. Another angle on that is that I can't be running my life catering to other peoples' irrational fears.
On the bigger scale (macro) it has been said that we are in a war, and our greatest enemy is not radical Islam, it's LIBERALISM. And the gun issue is just one skirmish in that war. Unfortunately we live in a Blue state and I continue to be amazed that we have one of the most gun-friendly set of firearms laws anywhere. That said, we can expect to encounter the whiners and gun-hating liberal wackos almost anywhere. The dilemma that the incident in Haggen presented for me is that this manager was not saying he was against me or my gun; he was trying to avoid a political fracas in his store. I can't say I blame him, as a businessman. So the issue is should I press the point just because I know I'm right? Being right isn't always the winning path. Maybe as one of you said I should just CC for a while, or perhaps take a time-out from OC.
I will admit, I conceal carry more than I open carry, but I do open carry enough to be "comfortable" doing it. The reason is that my CWP is only good in certain states....but in a lot of others....I can open carry and still have a defensive posture that doesn't include throwing rocks and sticks.
A year ago I would have agreed with you on the liberal thing. Now not so much. Part of this has is a direct result of OC. For the first time since I was a kid, I work in Seattle, with... many people from Seattle, most are unabashedly liberal (for that matter you can take Seattle out of the equation, just a lot of liberals). A funny thing happened when the weather started warming up and I came in with my holster sans weapon. People from all over the political spectrum started talking to me about guns, CPL, WAC shows, etc. Many of these Bush-hating, we need universal health care, global warming embracing people also embrace gun ownership and the right to carry. So I try to not paint with too broad a brush.
Richard6218 wrote:You need to lock it up!I am seriously considering quitting OC. Is there something I am missing here?
Lock it up? Are you disagreeing with all the people who have said here in this thread that quitting would be handing the gun-haters a victory? Or worse, are you a gun-hater?
Richard6218 wrote:I think he is being sarcastic.Lock it up? Are you disagreeing with all the people who have said here in this thread that quitting would be handing the gun-haters a victory? Or worse, are you a gun-hater?
Richard6218 wrote:Lock it up? Are you disagreeing with all the people who have said here in this thread that quitting would be handing the gun-haters a victory? Or worse, are you a gun-hater?
Lock it up:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6IpHHtl8gC4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Gun hater. Hahaha!!
Edit:Video didn't post. How does one do that?
This is a direct reply to Gene Beasley's post about the libs who approve of guns, and mineabout the war between liberalism and conservatism.
You do have a point, but it seems to me these libs are trying to have it both ways. Call it "crossing the aisle". I have more of a take-no-prisoners view of this conflict. As a body the liberal movement is bent on destroying our way of life as we know it, by attacking the Constitution and undermining the values that were so ably set down by the Founding Fathers. Their activist judges are one of their most dangerous weapons, such as Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. It is for conservatives everywhere to get organized and fight this very disturbing trend. If we don't win we will find ourselves with the Second Amendment repealed, cap-and-trade the order of our daily lives and attacks from radical Islam a regular occurrence because we have become too weak to resist. The fall of the Roman Empire is an example we should never forget.
So I respectfully disagree. We cannot "get along" with liberals.
This just shows what a simple typo can do to a thought. There's a big difference between "LOOK" and "LOCK" and in the context where it was used the result was devastating. Didn't mean to rattle your cage, man.
I don't care what any one's political bent is here. The only question I have is, "Is supporting and defending the Constitution important enough to you to exercise your your rights?" If it is, great! If not, then be prepared to lose them.
There are many folks on both sides of the political fence who are pro-rights, pro-Constitution.
There are also many who are anti-rights. They will turn in their guns when asked; they will let LE search their car, because they have "nothing to hide"; they will answer any question posed to them by LE just to get them off their back.
Liberal or conservative, if we don't exercise our rights, all of them, we will lose them.
Exercising your constitutional rights is seldom easy. Many reporters have gone to jail for freedom of the press issues. Many others have been hassled. Freedom of speech comes up frequently in the court system. Many people have been trained to believe we do not have second amendment rights and so are shocked to seesomeone exercising them. Consider yourself a teacher and roll model. It sounds like you have helped and educated those you came in contact with. I often remind peoplethey do not have to hide to exercisetheir rights nor is it necessary to conceal them. Newspapers do not have to be underground, free speech is ok in public places and so is the second amendment.
For your friend who was worried about what others might think. Hiding because you think someone may become upset and change laws to restrict your rights means you have already lost those rightsand it no longer matters what someone else does.
A few days ago I went to Covington WalMart open carrying. Nothing negative had ever been said to me at this store; after all, it is Covington. While I was looking at shirts another graybeard approached me. I could tell by his demeanor what was on his mind, so I gave him a welcoming smile. He said, a little hesitantly, that he knew that the gun was legal and all but "could I please put it in the car?" Still smiling I asked, "Why?"
He explained that I was "scaring customers". "Oh, that's odd," I said, "I've watched them and none was concerned." Come to find out that it wasn't customers but employees that called him (plural at this time). I went into the standard OCDO spiel and ended with, "I'm retired. I have all the time in the world. Bring these folks over so we can talk. Let me put their minds at ease."
More yadda yadda back and forth and he seemed fine with me and OC both so I continued shopping and OCing. Everything seemed fine. This was not unusual. People who object at first often perceive things to be safe after a quiet conversation. As with all other encounters I did an after-action review.
"You're scaring people" was the phrase he used, I'm sure, but he didn't mean it literally. He meant it in the sense of "people are concerned". However, it's not something that I will let pass in future. How I don't let it pass will be determined by the circumstances but the idea is from RCW 9.41.270 (with all the non-firearm references redacted out so you don't fall asleep)
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit,
display, or draw any firearm... in a manner, under
circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests
an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the
safety of other persons.
If I'm in violation of .270 then I probably am scaring somebody but if I'm not, then I'm not. I intend to push this concept because it's generally agreed among those who know anything substantive that as long as the pistol is in the holster and the grip not in my hand, I'm doing nothing threatening with the pistol. This doesn't say they're not scared, just that there's no legal reason to be scared. Thus their fear is generated by their imagination or, more probably, by the lamestream media.
Notice that I've said nothing about politics or political philosophy. In this context I don't care. One either supports the rights guaranteed by the Constitution or one does not. No support for rights, no financial support for your organization. No tickee, no washee.
Richard6218 wrote:Hi, just to give my two cents... This isn't a blue state. The Liberals just have more moxie to cheat and get away with it. Remember, to them, lying is only bad if you're a conservative, they don't have the same moral hang ups, therefore, they cannot be called hypocrites.On the bigger scale (macro) it has been said that we are in a war, and our greatest enemy is not radical Islam, it's LIBERALISM. And the gun issue is just one skirmish in that war. Unfortunately we live in a Blue state and I continue to be amazed that we have one of the most gun-friendly set of firearms laws anywhere. That said, we can expect to encounter the whiners and gun-hating liberal wackos almost anywhere.
I've done the legwork and research and my conclusion (as is many other's conclusion) is that the election of the Dem Governor is a fraud... they recounted until they won... then sued to block any more recounts.
Anyway, it is my belief that there are more constitution loving libertarians and conservatives in this state than there are weak kneed liberals... unfortunately, we believe in the philosophy of live and let live... and liberals are the worst of all busy bodies who think that everyones business is their business... and they won't stop screaming until they get their way.
The only way to defeat them is to be stronger and more resolute than they are... and to keep telling the truth to those around us. Win in the arena of ideas, and keep OCing as it is your right. Don't let them erode that right... because as soon as our right to carry is gone... the other rights will fall like dominoes.
Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington
MD, that's what I have found as well. Usually if someone will take the time to actually come to speak with me, rather than running off to the nearest manager of a store or LEO, they usually walk away reassured I'm not a crazy weirdo or whatever their mind associated with seeing a MWAG.....I really wish more people would have the cahones to come and speak with me, rather than running in sheer terror if they really have a problem.....but that would take common sense, something most of these same people have very little of.......
I haven't posted in quite a while but after reading the word "Liberal" written as though it were some sort of infliction (because a few slack-jawed yokels get all of their information from faux news and Rush Limbaugh), I felt obligated to help clarify the term. This is from the “About” section from the CATO Institute http://www.cato.org/about.php
Today, those who subscribe to the principles of the American Revolution--individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law--call themselves by a variety of terms, including conservative, libertarian, classical liberal, and liberal. We see problems with all of those terms. "Conservative" smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo. Only in America do people seem to refer to free-market capitalism--the most progressive, dynamic, and ever-changing system the world has ever known--as conservative. Additionally, many contemporary American conservatives favor state intervention in some areas, most notably in trade and into our private lives.
"Classical liberal" is a bit closer to the mark, but the word "classical" connotes a backward-looking philosophy.
Finally, "liberal" may well be the perfect word in most of the world--the liberals in societies from China to Iran to South Africa to Argentina are supporters of human rights and free markets--but its meaning has clearly been corrupted by contemporary American liberals.
The Jeffersonian philosophy that animates Cato's work has increasingly come to be called "libertarianism" or "market liberalism." It combines an appreciation for entrepreneurship, the market process, and lower taxes with strict respect for civil liberties and skepticism about the benefits of both the welfare state and foreign military adventurism.
The market-liberal vision brings the wisdom of the American Founders to bear on the problems of today. As did the Founders, it looks to the future with optimism and excitement, eager to discover what great things women and men will do in the coming century. Market liberals appreciate the complexity of a great society, they recognize that socialism and government planning are just too clumsy for the modern world. It is--or used to be--the conventional wisdom that a more complex society needs more government, but the truth is just the opposite. The simpler the society, the less damage government planning does. Planning is cumbersome in an agricultural society, costly in an industrial economy, and impossible in the information age. Today collectivism and planning are outmoded and backward, a drag on social progress.
Market liberals have a cosmopolitan, inclusive vision for society. We reject the bashing of gays, China, rich people, and immigrants that contemporary liberals and conservatives seem to think addresses society's problems. We applaud the liberation of blacks and women from the statist restrictions that for so long kept them out of the economic mainstream. Our greatest challenge today is to extend the promise of political freedom and economic opportunity to those who are still denied it, in our own country and around the world.
I apologize for the threadjack
"...our media are palace eunuchs gazing avidly at the harem of power and stroking their impotent pens in time to the rape of our liberties."
"America is at that awkward stage; it's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
Machoduck wrote:Nice approach. I went through the "you're scaring some of the customers" with someone once and didn't have a good response, although I hadn't seen anyone reacting to my pistol at all. My conclusion later in the conversation from other things he said was that it was he that was concerned, not the customers."Oh, that's odd," I said, "I've watched them and none was concerned."
Washingtonian, thanks for your input.
I was just beginning to digest this latest incident at Haggen when today I went to Cost Cutter in Ferndale, OC'ing. I had some half dozen items in my basket and was approaching the checkout line when the store manager approached me and without any of the preliminary niceties accorded me by the Haggen manager yesterday informed me that firearms are not allowed in his store. I asked him the standard question: Is this a written policy of Cost Cutter? He didn't know, he just said that's HIS policy. I said I was exercising my constitutional rights, and also citedthe RCW, and the argument was on. He said his father was a police officer; I said Good for him. I invited him to call the Ferndale PD. He didn't want to do that. I think he knew he was on shaky ground as to the law. He got out his cell phone but just then an employee interrupted us, and he put the phone away. He told me the call he was going to make was tohis manager. I said Please do, but he had lost interest in that. I think he realized he wasn't going to win this and he walked off.
This guy was a real jerk and the encounter with him was most unpleasant. This is my third negative incident in a week. I'm fed up. I do not enjoy getting hassledeverywhere I go, just for making a statement. Even though I may be right it just isn't worth it for me. So as of now I'm quitting OC. I'll still enjoy shooting at the range. That's enough for me.