TWO INCIDENTS of OC harassment against me IN A WEEK --- TOO MUCH FOR ME

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Richard6218 wrote:

On the bigger scale (macro) it has been said that we are in a war, and our greatest enemy is not radical Islam, it's LIBERALISM. And the gun issue is just one skirmish in that war. Unfortunately we live in a Blue state and I continue to be amazed that we have one of the most gun-friendly set of firearms laws anywhere. That said, we can expect to encounter the whiners and gun-hating liberal wackos almost anywhere.

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Hi, just to give my two cents... This isn't a blue state. The Liberals just have more moxie to cheat and get away with it. Remember, to them, lying is only bad if you're a conservative, they don't have the same moral hang ups, therefore, they cannot be called hypocrites.

I've done the legwork and research and my conclusion (as is many other's conclusion) is that the election of the Dem Governor is a fraud... they recounted until they won... then sued to block any more recounts.

Anyway, it is my belief that there are more constitution loving libertarians and conservatives in this state than there are weak kneed liberals... unfortunately, we believe in the philosophy of live and let live... and liberals are the worst of all busy bodies who think that everyones business is their business... and they won't stop screaming until they get their way.

The only way to defeat them is to be stronger and more resolute than they are... and to keep telling the truth to those around us. Win in the arena of ideas, and keep OCing as it is your right. Don't let them erode that right... because as soon as our right to carry is gone... the other rights will fall like dominoes.

WFL

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MD, that's what I have found as well. Usually if someone will take the time to actually come to speak with me, rather than running off to the nearest manager of a store or LEO, they usually walk away reassured I'm not a crazy weirdo or whatever their mind associated with seeing a MWAG.....I really wish more people would have the cahones to come and speak with me, rather than running in sheer terror if they really have a problem.....but that would take common sense, something most of these same people have very little of.......

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Hello everyone!

I haven't posted in quite a while but after reading the word "Liberal" written as though it were some sort of infliction (because a few slack-jawed yokels get all of their information from faux news and Rush Limbaugh), I felt obligated to help clarify the term. This is from the “About” section from the CATO Institute http://www.cato.org/about.php
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Today, those who subscribe to the principles of the American Revolution--individual liberty, limited government, the free market, and the rule of law--call themselves by a variety of terms, including conservative, libertarian, classical liberal, and liberal. We see problems with all of those terms. "Conservative" smacks of an unwillingness to change, of a desire to preserve the status quo. Only in America do people seem to refer to free-market capitalism--the most progressive, dynamic, and ever-changing system the world has ever known--as conservative. Additionally, many contemporary American conservatives favor state intervention in some areas, most notably in trade and into our private lives.
"Classical liberal" is a bit closer to the mark, but the word "classical" connotes a backward-looking philosophy.
Finally, "liberal" may well be the perfect word in most of the world--the liberals in societies from China to Iran to South Africa to Argentina are supporters of human rights and free markets--but its meaning has clearly been corrupted by contemporary American liberals.
The Jeffersonian philosophy that animates Cato's work has increasingly come to be called "libertarianism" or "market liberalism." It combines an appreciation for entrepreneurship, the market process, and lower taxes with strict respect for civil liberties and skepticism about the benefits of both the welfare state and foreign military adventurism.
The market-liberal vision brings the wisdom of the American Founders to bear on the problems of today. As did the Founders, it looks to the future with optimism and excitement, eager to discover what great things women and men will do in the coming century. Market liberals appreciate the complexity of a great society, they recognize that socialism and government planning are just too clumsy for the modern world. It is--or used to be--the conventional wisdom that a more complex society needs more government, but the truth is just the opposite. The simpler the society, the less damage government planning does. Planning is cumbersome in an agricultural society, costly in an industrial economy, and impossible in the information age. Today collectivism and planning are outmoded and backward, a drag on social progress.
Market liberals have a cosmopolitan, inclusive vision for society. We reject the bashing of gays, China, rich people, and immigrants that contemporary liberals and conservatives seem to think addresses society's problems. We applaud the liberation of blacks and women from the statist restrictions that for so long kept them out of the economic mainstream. Our greatest challenge today is to extend the promise of political freedom and economic opportunity to those who are still denied it, in our own country and around the world.
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I apologize for the threadjack

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Machoduck wrote:

"Oh, that's odd," I said, "I've watched them and none was concerned."

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Nice approach. I went through the "you're scaring some of the customers" with someone once and didn't have a good response, although I hadn't seen anyone reacting to my pistol at all. My conclusion later in the conversation from other things he said was that it was he that was concerned, not the customers.

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Washingtonian, thanks for your input.

I was just beginning to digest this latest incident at Haggen when today I went to Cost Cutter in Ferndale, OC'ing. I had some half dozen items in my basket and was approaching the checkout line when the store manager approached me and without any of the preliminary niceties accorded me by the Haggen manager yesterday informed me that firearms are not allowed in his store. I asked him the standard question: Is this a written policy of Cost Cutter? He didn't know, he just said that's HIS policy. I said I was exercising my constitutional rights, and also citedthe RCW, and the argument was on. He said his father was a police officer; I said Good for him. I invited him to call the Ferndale PD. He didn't want to do that. I think he knew he was on shaky ground as to the law. He got out his cell phone but just then an employee interrupted us, and he put the phone away. He told me the call he was going to make was tohis manager. I said Please do, but he had lost interest in that. I think he realized he wasn't going to win this and he walked off.

This guy was a real jerk and the encounter with him was most unpleasant. This is my third negative incident in a week. I'm fed up. I do not enjoy getting hassledeverywhere I go, just for making a statement. Even though I may be right it just isn't worth it for me. So as of now I'm quitting OC. I'll still enjoy shooting at the range. That's enough for me.

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Richard6218 wrote:

Washingtonian, thanks for your input.

I was just beginning to digest this latest incident at Haggen when today I went to Cost Cutter in Ferndale, OC'ing. I had some half dozen items in my basket and was approaching the checkout line when the store manager approached me and without any of the preliminary niceties accorded me by the Haggen manager yesterday informed me that firearms are not allowed in his store. I asked him the standard question: Is this a written policy of Cost Cutter? He didn't know, he just said that's HIS policy. I said I was exercising my constitutional rights, and also citedthe RCW, and the argument was on. He said his father was a police officer; I said Good for him. I invited him to call the Ferndale PD. He didn't want to do that. I think he knew he was on shaky ground as to the law. He got out his cell phone but just then an employee interrupted us, and he put the phone away. He told me the call he was going to make was tohis manager. I said Please do, but he had lost interest in that. I think he realized he wasn't going to win this and he walked off.

This guy was a real jerk and the encounter with him was most unpleasant. This is my third negative incident in a week. I'm fed up. I do not enjoy getting hassledeverywhere I go, just for making a statement. Even though I may be right it just isn't worth it for me. So as of now I'm quitting OC. I'll still enjoy shooting at the range. That's enough for me.

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Whatever floats your boat. To have that many minor incidents like that is unusual. Wonder how you would have dealt with a LEO pulling a gun out behind you?

Quite frankly nearly all of us have dealt with negative incidents in one fashion or another, some worse than what you describe, some just as mundane. Things change, stores don't want to lose customers and maverick managers are not appreciated by the higher ups in corporate.

Strangely I have been able to find a couple of OC friendly places where I live. Just curious but what kind of attitude do you have when OCing? A nervous unsure attitude is an invite to all manner of people hassling you. A postive, self assured attitude sends a message that you are doing nothing wrong.

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Richard6218 wrote:

This guy was a real jerk and the encounter with him was most unpleasant. This is my third negative incident in a week. I'm fed up. I do not enjoy getting hassledeverywhere I go, just for making a statement. Even though I may be right it just isn't worth it for me. So as of now I'm quitting OC. I'll still enjoy shooting at the range. That's enough for me.

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So...Themanager "very politely" saying that he didn't like you carry in his store was most unpleasant, now you're fed up and going to quit OC'ing...

OK.... See ya later.

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This is all very odd. I have OC'd all over Whatcom County for the past nine months and have had one negative encounter (Hardware Sales) that was resolved when he called the owner and was told to leave me alone. Other than that I haven't had anyone say boo to me. I shop in Haggen (all three of them), I shop in three different Costcutters and one Food Pavilion. Never a peep from any of them. I wonder what is different.

Are you wearing pants when you shop?

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DrewGunner wrote:

So...Themanager "very politely" saying that he didn't like you carry in his store was most unpleasant,

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DG, Keep in mind the stress level when you first started to OC. You aren't comfortable with the right way to approach and argument, you are assuming that you are going to be hassled because it is a new thing to you, you are probably expecting people to be jerks. So lets say he was a jerk. If you have had numerous conversations like this you just have the conversation, get the store policy straight, and move on. If you this is your first week, you are so nervous about carrying openly that you aren't quite sure how to deal with it. Let's cut the guy some slack.

Richard, rather than give up outright, how about OC occasionally when you aren't going to do errands or when you are going somewhere that you know is OK. Home Depot has a corporate policy confirming that it is OK, Hardware Sales owner has said OK to it, Bellingham PD knows it is fine, Taco Del Mar has never had a problem with me, and Wally's Too Barber is owned by a friend of mine who doesn't care. Get comfortable, have a few conversations with average Joe's rather than management types, and then expand your carrying as you feel up to it. It isn't an all or nothing proposition. I still sometimes just tuck the pistol under my truck seat if I am walking in somewhere that I think might be a hassle and I am in a hurry or just not feeling like dealing with it.

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sv_libertarian wrote:

Richard6218 wrote:

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Washingtonian, thanks for your input.

I was just beginning to digest this latest incident at Haggen when today I went to Cost Cutter in Ferndale, OC'ing. I had some half dozen items in my basket and was approaching the checkout line when the store manager approached me and without any of the preliminary niceties accorded me by the Haggen manager yesterday informed me that firearms are not allowed in his store. I asked him the standard question: Is this a written policy of Cost Cutter? He didn't know, he just said that's HIS policy. I said I was exercising my constitutional rights, and also citedthe RCW, and the argument was on. He said his father was a police officer; I said Good for him. I invited him to call the Ferndale PD. He didn't want to do that. I think he knew he was on shaky ground as to the law. He got out his cell phone but just then an employee interrupted us, and he put the phone away. He told me the call he was going to make was tohis manager. I said Please do, but he had lost interest in that. I think he realized he wasn't going to win this and he walked off.

This guy was a real jerk and the encounter with him was most unpleasant. This is my third negative incident in a week. I'm fed up. I do not enjoy getting hassledeverywhere I go, just for making a statement. Even though I may be right it just isn't worth it for me. So as of now I'm quitting OC. I'll still enjoy shooting at the range. That's enough for me.

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Strangely I have been able to find a couple of OC friendly places where I live. Just curious but what kind of attitude do you have when OCing? A nervous unsure attitude is an invite to all manner of people hassling you. A postive, self assured attitude sends a message that you are doing nothing wrong.

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I'm not too sure what you mean by What kind of attitude. I just go about my business, pushing my cart and not usually talking to anyone until I get to the checkstand. Both the Haggen and Cost Cutter situations happened before I even got in line at the checkstand, and I had not said a word to anyone until then. Are you maybe referring to body language? If so, I don't know how to answer the question. I was just "doing my thing". In both cases the managers approached me from the far end of the aisle and it was clear from the moment I saw them that they intended to stop me. In the Haggen case it was clear he was looking for me following the complaint he got. Today I think the guy was waiting for me to approach the checkstands after seeing me earlier. They both had their speeches outlined in their minds before they even said Word One.

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I'm still a bit puzzled by your question.

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Drew:

Thanks for the positive comment. I think maybe your advice about being selective about where I OC is well taken. I was just carrying every day, whenever I went out of the house. Putting on the Glock was just part of getting dressed. So I think now I'll pick and choose when/where I OC and maybe not do it every day.

Curiously, I have never encountered another OC'er. All this had me feeling like I was doing it alone, even though there's this site. Kind of a strange feeling, like being isolated but still having unseen backing.

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Richard6218 wrote:

Curiously, I have never encountered another OC'er. All this had me feeling like I was doing it alone, even though there's this site. Kind of a strange feeling, like being isolated but still having unseen backing.

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Kind of what I had been thinking and why I had intended to wait until I had a solid understanding and history of the situations others here had experienced. But, my son said lets do it and so I posted on another thread about meeting up somewhere in Whatcom county. I thought it would be better to be around others who had "been there, done that".

Anyway we are still open, but the women have our time a little limited so I hope we can work something out.

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Machoduck wrote:

A few days ago I went to Covington WalMart open carrying. Nothing negative had ever been said to me at this store; after all, it is Covington. While I was looking at shirts another graybeard approached me. I could tell by his demeanor what was on his mind, so I gave him a welcoming smile. He said, a little hesitantly, that he knew that the gun was legal and all but "could I please put it in the car?" Still smiling I asked, "Why?"

He explained that I was "scaring customers". "Oh, that's odd," I said, "I've watched them and none was concerned." Come to find out that it wasn't customers but employees that called him (plural at this time). I went into the standard OCDO spiel and ended with, "I'm retired. I have all the time in the world. Bring these folks over so we can talk. Let me put their minds at ease."

More yadda yadda back and forth and he seemed fine with me and OC both so I continued shopping and OCing. Everything seemed fine. This was not unusual. People who object at first often perceive things to be safe after a quiet conversation. As with all other encounters I did an after-action review.

"You're scaring people" was the phrase he used, I'm sure, but he didn't mean it literally. He meant it in the sense of "people are concerned". However, it's not something that I will let pass in future. How I don't let it pass will be determined by the circumstances but the idea is from RCW 9.41.270 (with all the non-firearm references redacted out so you don't fall asleep)

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit,
display, or draw any firearm... in a manner, under
circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests
an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the
safety of other persons.

If I'm in violation of .270 then I probably am scaring somebody but if I'm not, then I'm not. I intend to push this concept because it's generally agreed among those who know anything substantive that as long as the pistol is in the holster and the grip not in my hand, I'm doing nothing threatening with the pistol. This doesn't say they're not scared, just that there's no legal reason to be scared. Thus their fear is generated by their imagination or, more probably, by the lamestream media.

Notice that I've said nothing about politics or political philosophy. In this context I don't care. One either supports the rights guaranteed by the Constitution or one does not. No support for rights, no financial support for your organization. No tickee, no washee.

MD

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Walmart corporate policy is to reflect state law. So the nitwit is totally unaware of the corporate policy and you need to hunt his boss' ass down and have this corrected asap.

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Happy Fourth, everyone.

I've just had some thoughts about dealing with the two stores where I've been hassled. Obviously I need to buy groceries, and Haggen and Cost Cutter are the only convenient outlets for me. Following these incidents, it seems I have these choices:

1. Continue shopping there and OC'ing, thus risking further, and likely escalated, incidents
2. Continue shopping there and leaving the gun in the car, thus surrendering to these managers (translation: liberalism);
3. Drive further (about 7 miles down I-5 to Fred Meyer) and perhaps create another incident if I OC;
4. Drive further to Fred Meyer and not OC, thereby surrendering completely.

Any thoughts on these options??

Enjoy your Fourth.

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Washingtonian, your remarks about our wonderful governor and how she got where she is are 100% These people are cheats, liars, frauds and whatever else you want to call them. (I saw a great bumper sticker at the Custer Gun Show a couple weeks ago: "RE-elect Rossi)"

But I respectfully disagree about your characterization of this as NOT a blue state. Yes, there are a few localities that are Red (NOT communist, that is) but the Dems control the state legislature, the largest county (King) the largest city (Seattle) and we have two of the most liberal senators in the US Senate. And all the media analysts paint the state blue. Both major newspapers in the state are about as liberal as they can get. Can you explain your remark further?

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Option 1. My guess is you won't have more incidents. If management can't point to a specific corporate policy then they are probably trying to impose their personal opinions on you. The economy is too lousy to chase off customers, especially for higher end stores like Haagen.

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Richard6218 wrote:

Washingtonian, your remarks about our wonderful governor and how she got where she is are 100% These people are cheats, liars, frauds and whatever else you want to call them. (I saw a great bumper sticker at the Custer Gun Show a couple weeks ago: "RE-elect Rossi)"

But I respectfully disagree about your characterization of this as NOT a blue state. Yes, there are a few localities that are Red (NOT communist, that is) but the Dems control the state legislature, the largest county (King) the largest city (Seattle) and we have two of the most liberal senators in the US Senate. And all the media analysts paint the state blue. Both major newspapers in the state are about as liberal as they can get. Can you explain your remark further?

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It's called creative districting.... and they cheat. Now I admit, the flow of liberals out of California is quite overwhelming, but the fact remains, that if you're not in a city, there are far more Libertarians than there are Liberals.... unfortunately, Liberals have one goal.... power.... and Libertarians have no such goal... their main driving force is Liberty and Freedom... so we're not trying to get into power... but Liberals are. Everywhere you look, Liberals are getting into power, not because they're the best for the job, but because they actually desire the job.... they covet the job. They believe in big government... like me own mum... she's a big government lib through and through.... she believes that government is the be all end all as long as it's a Nanny State Gov.... she isn't for individual rights at all.... like most Liberals, she defers all decisions to the government.

We need to realize that we need to get into power, if only to keep Liberals from getting into power. And we need to educate the populace that it isn't the governments job to make .... jobs, or to take care of those less fortunate or to take care of our retirement.... it is each and every citizens job to do that.... but until we take up the mantel of trying to keep Libs out of government, they'll keep winning.

Remember this, Liberals only use the name Liberal, while we, the true Liberals continue our struggle for true Liberty.


WFL

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If you keep OC'ing in those stores, and the managers don't confront you, I'm willing to bet that, over time, it'll become a non-issue for them. The uneasy stinkeye probably don't last long.

They'll see you going about your business armed on a regular basis, and after the sky doesn't fall as they predicted, and they're reminded of the quality of your character instead of what is or isn't on your hip, they'll stop worrying about it. That's what OC is all about, and it rarely happens overnight.

On the other hand, if they do continue to escalate it, the worst that'll probably happen is you'll be banned from carrying there. Maybe they will dig up a corporate policy or something. But I find it unlikely they'll ban you altogether, should you choose to keep shopping there, unarmed.

Or face it head-on and tell them you intend to keep lawfully carrying and spending money with them, unless they tell you you can't in some kind of binding way (corporate policy or whatever). Put it back in their court.

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One needs to remember that this is an educational process. Sometimes it requires educating them all at once, but usually it is a one at a time deal. Which is what most of us have to deal with on a day to day basis. You just have to keep plugging away until you teach enough of the sheeple the facts that they begin teaching the rest of the sheeple the facts and truth of the matter.

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I believe it was Zora Hurston who said, "Speak, so you can speak again." I think it applies as much to the 2A bearing of firearms as it does to the 1A freedoms. Only the OP can decide whether to hang up his spurs or not, but I would encourage him to "Speak, so he can speak again."