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Well it happened. I had a bad...almost really bad encounter with law enforcement for open carrying. I'm still kinda shocked that it happened, and I'm at a complete loss as to what to do. I know a LOT needs to be done, but I haven't a clue where to start. So first things first, I'm letting you guys know what happened.
I live in North Carolina. I intended to go to the City of New Bern to watch the local Marine Band play in the park before the fireworks. I went through the State statutes and City ordinances again and again making sure that carrying, especially openly, was legal at that event, in that park. It was. It is. I am sure of it, beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind.
So I got out of my car and started walking down the public sidewalk towards the park. The park was surrounded with orange plastic fences, and the two entry points had police patting down bags to check for "contraband", which I later found out was mainly booze and bombs. I happened to be walking by the New Bern Police Departments mobile command center, and I didn't get 30 feet from my car before a female officer saw my sidearm, got the attention of one, Lt. Matthews, and yelled "sir, excuse me!"
I turned around, smiled, and lifted my sunglasses so they could see my eyes. We met on the sidewalk, Lt. Matthews standing slightly above me on a grass hill....
Me: Whats up?
Matthews: Well, uh, can I see some credentials?!
Me: Umm no? I don't have any.
Matthews: You don't have an ID?
Me: I do..whats the problem?
Matthews: You have a gun and you're headed towards a public gathering!
Me: Yes sir, I know. It's perfectly legal.
Matthews: NO IT'S NOT! This is a public gathering, you're NOT bringing that gun in there.
Me: Ok sir, if I may? I understand that this is not a usual sight around here, so I took the time to carefully review the state and city laws before I came out here to make sure there wouldn't be any problems.
Matthews: yeah, uh huh (with this "I don't care" look on his face)
Me: And I confirmed that there is no city ordinance that restricts carrying to an event like this.
Matthews: Ok, look, hey, look. I'm all for the 2nd amendment and whatever too, bud, but you're NOT bringing a gun in there. It is NOT allowed..
Me: Ok, sir, that surprises me since there is no law that says that.
Matthews: what?! There..
Me: Sir, I'm just curious if you could let me know what law you're referring to?
Matthews: I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about which law.
Me: Oh I'm not arguing sir, I'd just be very interested to know what ordinance you're referring to.
Matthews: I don't know the ordinances off the top of my head. Ok, I need to see your I.D.
Me: Um ok well am I being detained?
Matthews: I'm conducting an investigation! Let me see your I.D.
Me: Well, sir, unless I'm being detained I'd rather not.
Matthews: Oh, you wanna play this game. Ya know you're impeding an investigation if you don't show me your I.D.??
Me: No. Sir, if you aredetaining me and havereasonable suspicion to do so, I would be more than happy to provide my I.D.
Matthews:Look you're NOT...Hey! Sergeant Brown! (at this point he's yelling across the street as people walk by) This guy thinks he's gonna carry this gun into the park! And he's refusing to identify himself!
Sgt. Brown: Oh really??
Me: Hi, Sergeant, right?
Brown: Yeah
Me: Ok, I was just explain to...is it Officer? Oh, ok Lt. Matthews here that I took the time to read any pertenant laws before coming out here this evening, and I verified that there's nothing illegal about me being armed in the park.
Brown: Lets see some I.D.
Me: Sergeant, am I being detained? (the Lt. is huffing and puffing at this point)
Brown: Yeah, you are!
Me: Wow, well what law am I breaking?
Brown: wuh...You're going into a public gathering with a gun!
Me: Sergeant, I'm on a public sidewalk at the moment, and there isn't a city ordinance that says going to the event is illegal.
Brown: It's state law! You know, there's a law called "going armed to the terror of the people", and that's what you're doing.
Me: Actually Sergeant, that old law has quite a few requirements, none of which I'm currently meeting. I'm not being threatening to anyone, and..
Brown: Well all right, you want to refuse to identify yourself. You know, I don't know who you could be. You could be a convicted felon for all I know.
Me: You're absolutely right!
Brown: So ok if you don't want to cooperate, I guess we can just go talk to the magistrate about you obstructing justice.
Me: Sergeant, you and I both know that reasonable articulable suspicion is required to detain someone, so are you saying you have reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed?
Brown: Yeah! You're about to go into a crowd of people with a gun!
Me: That's not a crime, Sergeant.
Brown: Look, you've got two choices right now. Either you go secure your firearm and provide some I.D., or we can go chat with the magistrate.
Me: Ok, I'll tell you what Sergeant, I will go secure my firearm momentarily. Now that I've agreed to that, can I ask you a question?
Brown: what?!
Me: Well I took my time and searched the laws thoroughly. Is there honestly a law that you're aware of that..
Brown: What..are you a lawyer?
Me: Nope, I'm a mechanic.
Brown: Ok, but you think you're gonna sit here and argue law in the middle of the sidewalk with a cop?
Me: No..
Brown: Well that's what you're doing. You're trying to be a lawyer.
Me: No sir, I'm just trying to protect myself.
Brown: (he gets into my face now) Look, I could take that gun away from you right now. You know that? I can, legally. You know that? I could arrest you right now. Now either secure the firearm or I'll just ask you to leave. This is a public gathering, so I can do that, too. Ya know what? Hey Lt! This gentleman is just going to leave.
Me: Well Sergeant, I just agreed to secure my firearm, that's not a problem. I'd like to attend the event.
Brown: Fine, well...
Me: I'd just like to verify that you, Sergeant Brown, and Lt. Matthews here are ordering me to disarm or leave without a law to back it up, correct?
Brown: I uh wuh?! Look, either secure the firearm, leave, or we'll go see the magistrate. You've got about 5 seconds. (he looks at his watch)
Me: Ok, I'll take that as a yes. I'll go secure my firearm!
I walked away with my girlfriend as a few of the cops that had gathered around kept their distance but followed me to my car. As I walked, I used my phone to voice record the names of the two LEO's, since I'm horrible with remembering names. I then secured my SW99 in the glove box of my car, slid my P3AT into my pocket, and made my way back to the park without any further problems.
So yeah, the dialogue I just provided is NOT verbatim. It's as well as I can recall the situation, and I made sure to include the key statements that everyone made. I'll admit I sound a lot more confident reading it then I did when I was saying it. My girlfriend said my voice was a little shaky, but damnit I was scared! I'll admit that!
I'm kicking myself now for not buying and having a voice recorder with me, but I honestly didn't think I'd need it. Earlier just this year I carried all over this same town, in the same park, while one of the biggest celebrations of the year, Mum Fest,went on. The whole downtown area of New Bern is blocked off and filled with booths and vendors and food and what have you. I openly carried the entire day, past New Bern cops, even had a brief conversation with one about where the shuttle stopped. I was SURE they had their duck's in a row. I was terribly wrong.
So now I'm back at home. We left after about 30 minutes...we just didn't feel like being there after that happened. We got some dinner at one of our favorite restaurants, then headed home. I'm still just...flustered about the whole thing.
So yeah, what do I do now? Write letters? To who? The Chief of Police? Anyone else?
If you care, this is the ONLY semi-applicable New Bern ordinance:
Ok guys, I'm sorry this post was so long, but I had to get it all off my chest...so there ya go!
Well it happened. I had a bad...almost really bad encounter with law enforcement for open carrying. I'm still kinda shocked that it happened, and I'm at a complete loss as to what to do. I know a LOT needs to be done, but I haven't a clue where to start. So first things first, I'm letting you guys know what happened.
I live in North Carolina. I intended to go to the City of New Bern to watch the local Marine Band play in the park before the fireworks. I went through the State statutes and City ordinances again and again making sure that carrying, especially openly, was legal at that event, in that park. It was. It is. I am sure of it, beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind.
So I got out of my car and started walking down the public sidewalk towards the park. The park was surrounded with orange plastic fences, and the two entry points had police patting down bags to check for "contraband", which I later found out was mainly booze and bombs. I happened to be walking by the New Bern Police Departments mobile command center, and I didn't get 30 feet from my car before a female officer saw my sidearm, got the attention of one, Lt. Matthews, and yelled "sir, excuse me!"
I turned around, smiled, and lifted my sunglasses so they could see my eyes. We met on the sidewalk, Lt. Matthews standing slightly above me on a grass hill....
Me: Whats up?
Matthews: Well, uh, can I see some credentials?!
Me: Umm no? I don't have any.
Matthews: You don't have an ID?
Me: I do..whats the problem?
Matthews: You have a gun and you're headed towards a public gathering!
Me: Yes sir, I know. It's perfectly legal.
Matthews: NO IT'S NOT! This is a public gathering, you're NOT bringing that gun in there.
Me: Ok sir, if I may? I understand that this is not a usual sight around here, so I took the time to carefully review the state and city laws before I came out here to make sure there wouldn't be any problems.
Matthews: yeah, uh huh (with this "I don't care" look on his face)
Me: And I confirmed that there is no city ordinance that restricts carrying to an event like this.
Matthews: Ok, look, hey, look. I'm all for the 2nd amendment and whatever too, bud, but you're NOT bringing a gun in there. It is NOT allowed..
Me: Ok, sir, that surprises me since there is no law that says that.
Matthews: what?! There..
Me: Sir, I'm just curious if you could let me know what law you're referring to?
Matthews: I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about which law.
Me: Oh I'm not arguing sir, I'd just be very interested to know what ordinance you're referring to.
Matthews: I don't know the ordinances off the top of my head. Ok, I need to see your I.D.
Me: Um ok well am I being detained?
Matthews: I'm conducting an investigation! Let me see your I.D.
Me: Well, sir, unless I'm being detained I'd rather not.
Matthews: Oh, you wanna play this game. Ya know you're impeding an investigation if you don't show me your I.D.??
Me: No. Sir, if you aredetaining me and havereasonable suspicion to do so, I would be more than happy to provide my I.D.
Matthews:Look you're NOT...Hey! Sergeant Brown! (at this point he's yelling across the street as people walk by) This guy thinks he's gonna carry this gun into the park! And he's refusing to identify himself!
Sgt. Brown: Oh really??
Me: Hi, Sergeant, right?
Brown: Yeah
Me: Ok, I was just explain to...is it Officer? Oh, ok Lt. Matthews here that I took the time to read any pertenant laws before coming out here this evening, and I verified that there's nothing illegal about me being armed in the park.
Brown: Lets see some I.D.
Me: Sergeant, am I being detained? (the Lt. is huffing and puffing at this point)
Brown: Yeah, you are!
Me: Wow, well what law am I breaking?
Brown: wuh...You're going into a public gathering with a gun!
Me: Sergeant, I'm on a public sidewalk at the moment, and there isn't a city ordinance that says going to the event is illegal.
Brown: It's state law! You know, there's a law called "going armed to the terror of the people", and that's what you're doing.
Me: Actually Sergeant, that old law has quite a few requirements, none of which I'm currently meeting. I'm not being threatening to anyone, and..
Brown: Well all right, you want to refuse to identify yourself. You know, I don't know who you could be. You could be a convicted felon for all I know.
Me: You're absolutely right!
Brown: So ok if you don't want to cooperate, I guess we can just go talk to the magistrate about you obstructing justice.
Me: Sergeant, you and I both know that reasonable articulable suspicion is required to detain someone, so are you saying you have reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed?
Brown: Yeah! You're about to go into a crowd of people with a gun!
Me: That's not a crime, Sergeant.
Brown: Look, you've got two choices right now. Either you go secure your firearm and provide some I.D., or we can go chat with the magistrate.
Me: Ok, I'll tell you what Sergeant, I will go secure my firearm momentarily. Now that I've agreed to that, can I ask you a question?
Brown: what?!
Me: Well I took my time and searched the laws thoroughly. Is there honestly a law that you're aware of that..
Brown: What..are you a lawyer?
Me: Nope, I'm a mechanic.
Brown: Ok, but you think you're gonna sit here and argue law in the middle of the sidewalk with a cop?
Me: No..
Brown: Well that's what you're doing. You're trying to be a lawyer.
Me: No sir, I'm just trying to protect myself.
Brown: (he gets into my face now) Look, I could take that gun away from you right now. You know that? I can, legally. You know that? I could arrest you right now. Now either secure the firearm or I'll just ask you to leave. This is a public gathering, so I can do that, too. Ya know what? Hey Lt! This gentleman is just going to leave.
Me: Well Sergeant, I just agreed to secure my firearm, that's not a problem. I'd like to attend the event.
Brown: Fine, well...
Me: I'd just like to verify that you, Sergeant Brown, and Lt. Matthews here are ordering me to disarm or leave without a law to back it up, correct?
Brown: I uh wuh?! Look, either secure the firearm, leave, or we'll go see the magistrate. You've got about 5 seconds. (he looks at his watch)
Me: Ok, I'll take that as a yes. I'll go secure my firearm!
I walked away with my girlfriend as a few of the cops that had gathered around kept their distance but followed me to my car. As I walked, I used my phone to voice record the names of the two LEO's, since I'm horrible with remembering names. I then secured my SW99 in the glove box of my car, slid my P3AT into my pocket, and made my way back to the park without any further problems.
So yeah, the dialogue I just provided is NOT verbatim. It's as well as I can recall the situation, and I made sure to include the key statements that everyone made. I'll admit I sound a lot more confident reading it then I did when I was saying it. My girlfriend said my voice was a little shaky, but damnit I was scared! I'll admit that!
I'm kicking myself now for not buying and having a voice recorder with me, but I honestly didn't think I'd need it. Earlier just this year I carried all over this same town, in the same park, while one of the biggest celebrations of the year, Mum Fest,went on. The whole downtown area of New Bern is blocked off and filled with booths and vendors and food and what have you. I openly carried the entire day, past New Bern cops, even had a brief conversation with one about where the shuttle stopped. I was SURE they had their duck's in a row. I was terribly wrong.
So now I'm back at home. We left after about 30 minutes...we just didn't feel like being there after that happened. We got some dinner at one of our favorite restaurants, then headed home. I'm still just...flustered about the whole thing.
So yeah, what do I do now? Write letters? To who? The Chief of Police? Anyone else?
If you care, this is the ONLY semi-applicable New Bern ordinance:
Obviously this refers to recreational structures and nothing else. The park is not included. The only NC law that comes close is this:Sec. 50-32. Possession of firearms prohibited.
It shall be unlawful for any person to possess any firearm within a recreational structure owned by the city, whether or not the same shall be concealed; provided, however, this prohibition shall not apply to sworn law enforcement officers who are permitted by law to carry firearms.
(Ord. No. 1996-63, § 1, 9-24-96)
This statute is often incorrectly referred to as the "public gathering" law. As you can see, however, it only specifically prohibits carrying in parades, funeral processions, picket lines, and demonstrations.§ 14‑277.2. Weapons at parades, etc., prohibited.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any private health care facility or upon any public place owned or under the control of the State or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any dangerous weapon. Violation of this subsection shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor. It shall be presumed that any rifle or gun carried on a rack in a pickup truck at a holiday parade or in a funeral procession does not violate the terms of this act.
Ok guys, I'm sorry this post was so long, but I had to get it all off my chest...so there ya go!