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Thread: Michigan State Police Legal Update 16 June 08: OC is legal!

  1. #1
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    Interesting that all of a sudden this year, just like Connecticut authorities clarifying that open carry is legal in Connecticut, Michigan authorities have done same:

    "Open carry of firearms

    Subject to
    MCL 750.234d, it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public."

    Source: Michigan State Police Legal Update No. 66 (June 16, 2008), available at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...6_238184_7.pdf.

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    Mike wrote:
    Interesting that all of a sudden this year, just like Connecticut authorities clarifying that open carry is legal in Connecticut, Michigan authorities have done same:

    "Open carry of firearms


    Subject to
    MCL 750.234d, it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public."


    Source: Michigan State Police Legal Update No. 66 (June 16, 2008), available at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...6_238184_7.pdf.
    I just don't like this part of the Document.

    "Without a CPL, a non-resident may not have a pistol in Michigan. "

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    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    I just don't like this part of the Document.

    "Without a CPL, a non-resident may not have a pistol in Michigan. "
    All you have to do is hold a gun carry permit from your home state.

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    I give the Michigan State Police credit they've always been good about updating their websites to inform police of legal issues.

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    EXCELLENT post

    A+ to the MSP for keeping up to date.

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    I never knew that a non resident could not have a sidearm in Michigan without having a carry permit from his home state. My friend Col. Randy always brings at least one pistol with him when he visits. Now I guess I'd best tell him the skinny.

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    DickTracy1953 wrote:
    I never knew that a non resident could not have a sidearm in Michigan without having a carry permit from his home state. My friend Col. Randy always brings at least one pistol with him when he visits. Now I guess I'd best tell him the skinny.
    That is my understanding due to the "safety inspection" (i.e., registration) requirement in Michigan - any expert from Michigan care to chime in with specifics? Like can non-permit holder visiting or moving to Michigan keep the handgun in his home till he gets it safety inspected?

    Clearly Heller implies that regulations banning gun possession in one's home are unconstitutional - all state statutes need to be checked and reformed so that, where registration is required, a grace period exists for visitor and new residents.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Yes, it is ILLEGAL to "bring" a gun across Michigan border with out being a holder of a concealed carry license issued by the persons "home" state.

    Assume NOTHING else!

    If you are a resident from lets say TX and have a carry permit from a different state, say FL, you CAN NOT carry it into MI. You must have a license from "your state of residence".

    Another way is to transfer it through an FFL. But thats a bunch of BS, hoop jumping and paper work.

    Like can non-permit holder visiting or moving to Michigan keep the handgun in his home till he gets it safety inspected?
    Yes, they can "keep" it at home until he gets it SI. Which I believe should be "immediate". I'm not so sure about the legality's of bringing them into the state while moving here. (who the hell is moving TO Michigan I was just gunna hang out and shut off the lights after everyone has left)

    IANAL and your question, while seeming simple when you wrote it, is far from easy to answer.

    some other info - http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=27257

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    Mike wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    I just don't like this part of the Document.

    "Without a CPL, a non-resident may not have a pistol in Michigan. "
    All you have to do is hold a gun carry permit from your home state.
    But does this not mean that a person CANNOT OC as a right but rather a privilege?



    TJ



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    Looks like the "safety inspection" (read "registration") requirement might have been repealed in Michigan, to take effect sometime in the near future if it hasn't already:

    http://www.michiganvotes.org/2007-HB-4491

    Anyone have any more information about this?

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    mvpel wrote:
    Looks like the "safety inspection" (read "registration") requirement might have been repealed in Michigan, to take effect sometime in the near future if it hasn't already:

    http://www.michiganvotes.org/2007-HB-4491

    Anyone have any more information about this?
    From House Bill 4491
    Enacting section 2. This amendatory act takes effect 180 days after the date it is enacted into law. Enacting section 3. This amendatory act does not take effect unless all of the following bills of the 94th Legislature are enacted into law: (a) Senate Bill No. 370. (b) House Bill No. 4490.
    From Senate Bill no. 370:
    Received in the House on June 27, 2008, to concur with the Senate-passed version of the bill. Passed in the House (95 to 12) on June 27, 2008
    So if I understand this correctly, would take affect 180 days from June 27,2008

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    d_clark wrote:
    mvpel wrote:
    Looks like the "safety inspection" (read "registration") requirement might have been repealed in Michigan, to take effect sometime in the near future if it hasn't already:

    http://www.michiganvotes.org/2007-HB-4491

    Anyone have any more information about this?
    From House Bill 4491
    Enacting section 2. This amendatory act takes effect 180 days after the date it is enacted into law. Enacting section 3. This amendatory act does not take effect unless all of the following bills of the 94th Legislature are enacted into law: (a) Senate Bill No. 370. (b) House Bill No. 4490.
    From Senate Bill no. 370:
    Received in the House on June 27, 2008, to concur with the Senate-passed version of the bill. Passed in the House (95 to 12) on June 27, 2008
    So if I understand this correctly, would take affect 180 days from June 27,2008
    I'm totally confused as to what version of what bill passed and what it does so some Michigan expert needs to summaRIZE it in plain English for us.

    If the registration scheme is Michigan is repealed, this is great news and can be used as an example to show DC that they need to repeal their scheme and gives support to courts scrutinizing registration schemes as well.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    No Mike, it's not all peaches and cream.

    "Look, here is what we gained:

    No trip to PD for pistol safety inspection
    Misdemeanor, now civil infraction for failure to report purchase

    Here is what we lost, gave up.

    Express legislative authority for State Police LIEN/centralized pistol database.
    Registration burden shifted from seller to purchaser
    30 day must carry permit to purchase
    Must either mail or vist PD with purchase permit in 10 days.
    Must self-report to police lawful constitutional activity--possession of a pistol.
    Four copies of permit, not three
    Must show CCP to security officers if stopped.

    What we gave up has nothing to do with safety or fighting crime--but rather, we increased governmental control over our own lawful activity. Some call this progress.

    Here is what I learned:
    1) Legislators do not care what you say where key Michigan pro-gun organizations give prior blessing.
    2) Key-pro gun organization do not care what you say, unless its consistent with what they already want.
    3) Not a single Michigan pro-gun organization that supported these laws, believes for one minute that you or I have a Michgan Constitutional right to bear arms that cannot be balanced by "reasonable legislative restrictions." If they did believe it, they could not have supported these bills.

    Here is what I already knew:
    What a man sows, he reaps."

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    dougwg wrote:
    No Mike, it's not all peaches and cream.

    "Look, here is what we gained:

    No trip to PD for pistol safety inspection
    Misdemeanor, now civil infraction for failure to report purchase

    Here is what we lost, gave up.

    Express legislative authority for State Police LIEN/centralized pistol database.
    Registration burden shifted from seller to purchaser
    30 day must carry permit to purchase
    Must either mail or vist PD with purchase permit in 10 days.
    Must self-report to police lawful constitutional activity--possession of a pistol.
    Four copies of permit, not three
    Must show CCP to security officers if stopped.

    What we gave up has nothing to do with safety or fighting crime--but rather, we increased governmental control over our own lawful activity. Some call this progress.

    Here is what I learned:
    1) Legislators do not care what you say where key Michigan pro-gun organizations give prior blessing.
    2) Key-pro gun organization do not care what you say, unless its consistent with what they already want.
    3) Not a single Michigan pro-gun organization that supported these laws, believes for one minute that you or I have a Michgan Constitutional right to bear arms that cannot be balanced by "reasonable legislative restrictions." If they did believe it, they could not have supported these bills.

    Here is what I already knew:
    What a man sows, he reaps."
    So, I guess a marginally positive net gain by precluding need to physically transport handgun to authorities for "safety inspection"?

    DC registration requires physical presentation of firearm - the Michigan move away from that is still a nice thing to point to.

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    What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

    As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?

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    NO

    FOID is really nothing more than a permission slip.Which is BS.

    We don't even need one in Michigan.

    YouMUST have a concealed carry permit issued by your state of residence!
    I can't be MORE clear than that.

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    Ok just so this is crystal.

    If you live in Michigan you do not need a CPL to open carry?

    If you do not live in Michigan you need a CPL from your home state to open carry in Michigan?



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    lockman wrote:
    Ok just so this is crystal.

    If you live in Michigan you do not need a CPL to open carry?
    Correct

    If you do not live in Michigan you need a CPL from your home state to open carry in Michigan?"
    I see no alternative.


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    lockman wrote:
    What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

    As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?
    Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

    The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

    I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.

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    vmaxanarchist wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

    As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?
    Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

    The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state.
    A great reason for folks with nonres FL CHPs to sue to quash this violation of the privileges and immunities clause.

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    vmaxanarchist wrote:
    SNIP

    Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

    The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

    I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.
    I disagree. There are only2 ways for a non-resident to possess/use a handgun in Michigan, whether you OC or CC:

    1) You must have a permit/license from your state of residence.

    2) You are relocating/moving to the State of Michigan, then see, per MCRGO:

    10. I have just moved to Michigan from another state. How much time do I have to register my pistols?

    MCL 28.422&MCL 28.429Upon establishing legal residency, you should immediately contact your local law enforcement agency, pass the basic safety questionnaire, and complete both a License to Purchase and Safety Inspection Certificate.

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    vmaxanarchist wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

    As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?
    Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

    The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

    I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.
    This is not clear. The law states any CPL from any state. True. But an AG opinion has stated it must be from your home state. You could test it, which I think someone did and was convicted??? I'm not sure on this. But the State police are telling us it must be from your home state.

    On another thread I posted that a bill is introduced to recognize any non-resident that can posses a handgun in their home state to posses it in Michigan. Here is the link to the bill, with the gist of it below.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...8-HIB-5985.pdf

    (1) Sections 2 an 1d 9 do not apply to any of the following:

    (J) A NONRESIDENT WHO IS LICENSED TO CARRY, POSSESS, USE, AND TRANSPORT A PISTOL IN ANOTHER STATE OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE IN THAT OTHER STATE, WHO CARRIES, POSSESSES, USES, OR TRANSPORTS A PISTOL IN THIS STATE FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED 30 DAYS. AS USED IN IN THIS SUBDIVISION, "NONRESIDENT" MEANS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A LAWFUL RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE, THE [/b]DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA[/b], OR A TERRITORYOR POSSESSION OF THE UNITED STATES.[/b]
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    SNIP
    Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

    The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

    I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.


    This is not clear. The law states any CPL from any state. True. But an AG opinion has stated it must be from your home state. You could test it, which I think someone did and was convicted??? I'm not sure on this. But the State police are telling us it must be from your home state.

    On another thread I posted that a bill is introduced to recognize any non-resident that can posses a handgun in their home state to posses it in Michigan. Here is the link to the bill, with the gist of it below.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...8-HIB-5985.pdf

    (1) Sections 2 an 1d 9 do not apply to any of the following:

    (J) A NONRESIDENT WHO IS LICENSED TO CARRY, POSSESS, USE, AND TRANSPORT A PISTOL IN ANOTHER STATE OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE IN THAT OTHER STATE, WHO CARRIES, POSSESSES, USES, OR TRANSPORTS A PISTOL IN THIS STATE FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED 30 DAYS. AS USED IN IN THIS SUBDIVISION, "NONRESIDENT" MEANS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A LAWFUL RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE, THE [/b]DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA[/b], OR A TERRITORYOR POSSESSION OF THE UNITED STATES.[/b]
    I still read this as the non-resident of Michigan is still required to possess a permit/license from their residential state. I'm not sure about this at all. May need MSP and AG opinion.

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    The Second Amendment is an individual right now, so Michigan's laws to the contrary regarding possession of lawfully-owned firearms are effectively null and void.

    But then, in New Hampshire, I'm exempt from licensure to possess, use, and transport, and exempt from licensure to carry openly, so does that count?

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    Venator wrote:
    vmaxanarchist wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

    As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?
    Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

    The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

    I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.
    This is not clear. The law states any CPL from any state. True. But an AG opinion has stated it must be from your home state. You could test it, which I think someone did and was convicted??? I'm not sure on this. But the State police are telling us it must be from your home state.

    On another thread I posted that a bill is introduced to recognize any non-resident that can posses a handgun in their home state to posses it in Michigan. Here is the link to the bill, with the gist of it below.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...8-HIB-5985.pdf

    (1) Sections 2 an 1d 9 do not apply to any of the following:

    (J) A NONRESIDENT WHO IS LICENSED TO CARRY, POSSESS, USE, AND TRANSPORT A PISTOL IN ANOTHER STATE OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE IN THAT OTHER STATE, WHO CARRIES, POSSESSES, USES, OR TRANSPORTS A PISTOL IN THIS STATE FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED 30 DAYS. AS USED IN IN THIS SUBDIVISION, "NONRESIDENT" MEANS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A LAWFUL RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE, THE [/b]DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA[/b], OR A TERRITORYOR POSSESSION OF THE UNITED STATES.[/b]
    Can you post the AG opinion? I haven't seen one that says the CC permit exemption for possesiononly applies to resident permits. Also who was this someone?

    Here is the exemption.

    "28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422 and 28.429; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

    Sec. 12.

    (1) Sections 2 and 9 do not apply to any of the following:

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state."

    I still do not see how this says the permit must be from the non-residents own state. I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the holder of aCC permit would be usingit to CC and thus not be exempt from the CC law. However possesion and thus OC is expressly legal.

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