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Michigan State Police Legal Update 16 June 08: OC is legal!

SpringerXDacp

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vmaxanarchist wrote:
SNIP

Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.

I disagree. There are only2 ways for a non-resident to possess/use a handgun in Michigan, whether you OC or CC:

1) You must have a permit/license from your state of residence.

2) You are relocating/moving to the State of Michigan, then see, per MCRGO:

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]10. I have just moved to Michigan from another state. How much time do I have to register my pistols?[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]MCL 28.422 &MCL 28.429Upon establishing legal residency, you should immediately contact your local law enforcement agency, pass the basic safety questionnaire, and complete both a License to Purchase and Safety Inspection Certificate.[/font]
 

Venator

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vmaxanarchist wrote:
lockman wrote:
What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?

Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.

This is not clear. The law states any CPL from any state. True. But an AG opinion has stated it must be from your home state. You could test it, which I think someone did and was convicted??? I'm not sure on this. But the State police are telling us it must be from your home state.

On another thread I posted that a bill is introduced to recognize any non-resident that can posses a handgun in their home state to posses it in Michigan. Here is the link to the bill, with the gist of it below.

[url]http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2007-2008/billintroduced/House/pdf/2008-HIB-5985.pdf[/url]

(1) Sections 2 an 1d 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(J) A NONRESIDENT WHO IS LICENSED TO CARRY, POSSESS, USE, AND TRANSPORT A PISTOL IN ANOTHER STATE OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE IN THAT OTHER STATE, WHO CARRIES, POSSESSES, USES, OR TRANSPORTS A PISTOL IN THIS STATE FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED 30 DAYS. AS USED IN IN THIS SUBDIVISION, "NONRESIDENT" MEANS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A LAWFUL RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE, THE [/b]DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA[/b], OR A TERRITORYOR POSSESSION OF THE UNITED STATES.[/b]
 

SpringerXDacp

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Venator wrote:
SNIP
Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.


This is not clear. The law states any CPL from any state. True. But an AG opinion has stated it must be from your home state. You could test it, which I think someone did and was convicted??? I'm not sure on this. But the State police are telling us it must be from your home state.

On another thread I posted that a bill is introduced to recognize any non-resident that can posses a handgun in their home state to posses it in Michigan. Here is the link to the bill, with the gist of it below.

[url]http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2007-2008/billintroduced/House/pdf/2008-HIB-5985.pdf[/url]

(1) Sections 2 an 1d 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(J) A NONRESIDENT WHO IS LICENSED TO CARRY, POSSESS, USE, AND TRANSPORT A PISTOL IN ANOTHER STATE OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE IN THAT OTHER STATE, WHO CARRIES, POSSESSES, USES, OR TRANSPORTS A PISTOL IN THIS STATE FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED 30 DAYS. AS USED IN IN THIS SUBDIVISION, "NONRESIDENT" MEANS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A LAWFUL RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE, THE [/b]DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA[/b], OR A TERRITORYOR POSSESSION OF THE UNITED STATES.[/b]
I still read this as the non-resident of Michigan is still required to possess a permit/license from their residential state. I'm not sure about this at all. May need MSP and AG opinion.
 

mvpel

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The Second Amendment is an individual right now, so Michigan's laws to the contrary regarding possession of lawfully-owned firearms are effectively null and void.

But then, in New Hampshire, I'm exempt from licensure to possess, use, and transport, and exempt from licensure to carry openly, so does that count?
 

vmaxanarchist

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Venator wrote:
vmaxanarchist wrote:
lockman wrote:
What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?

Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.

This is not clear. The law states any CPL from any state. True. But an AG opinion has stated it must be from your home state. You could test it, which I think someone did and was convicted??? I'm not sure on this. But the State police are telling us it must be from your home state.

On another thread I posted that a bill is introduced to recognize any non-resident that can posses a handgun in their home state to posses it in Michigan. Here is the link to the bill, with the gist of it below.

[url]http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2007-2008/billintroduced/House/pdf/2008-HIB-5985.pdf[/url]

(1) Sections 2 an 1d 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(J) A NONRESIDENT WHO IS LICENSED TO CARRY, POSSESS, USE, AND TRANSPORT A PISTOL IN ANOTHER STATE OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE IN THAT OTHER STATE, WHO CARRIES, POSSESSES, USES, OR TRANSPORTS A PISTOL IN THIS STATE FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED 30 DAYS. AS USED IN IN THIS SUBDIVISION, "NONRESIDENT" MEANS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A LAWFUL RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE, THE [/b]DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA[/b], OR A TERRITORYOR POSSESSION OF THE UNITED STATES.[/b]

Can you post the AG opinion? I haven't seen one that says the CC permit exemption for possesiononly applies to resident permits. Also who was this someone?

Here is the exemption.

"28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422 and 28.429; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

Sec. 12.

(1) Sections 2 and 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state."

I still do not see how this says the permit must be from the non-residents own state. I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the holder of aCC permit would be usingit to CC and thus not be exempt from the CC law. However possesion and thus OC is expressly legal.
 

Mike

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vmaxanarchist wrote:
Can you post the AG opinion? I haven't seen one that says the CC permit exemption for possesiononly applies to resident permits. Also who was this someone?

Here is the exemption.

"28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422 and 28.429; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

Sec. 12.

(1) Sections 2 and 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state."

I still do not see how this says the permit must be from the non-residents own state. I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the holder of aCC permit would be usingit to CC and thus not be exempt from the CC law. However possesion and thus OC is expressly legal.
I think you are on to somthing as for OCing with nonres permit - besides, the nonres discrimination is unconstitutional under the priv. and Imm. clause - law suit in Georgia takibng this on in part right now.
 

Venator

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vmaxanarchist wrote:
Venator wrote:
vmaxanarchist wrote:
lockman wrote:
What about OC by an Illinois resident? I have a FOID card which shows I have had a criminal background check and am authorized by the state of Illinois to purchase, possess and transport firearms. The only stipulation on my FOID card other than carrying or using firearms unlawfully is "This does not authorize the carrying of a concealed weapon".

As far as OC is concerned, a FOID card does allow open carry in the state of IL except where prohibited by law. Will MI honor it?

Get a CC permit from any other state. Michigan law allows the possession of a handgun by a U.S. citizen with a CC permit from any state. You can then OC. Also you would be exempt from the pistol free zones.

The CC law requires the permit to be from your own state. So, no CC and you can only transport in a car under the same manner with a legal reason as a resident of MI who does not have a CC permit.

I have posted the pertinent laws on other previous posts.

This is not clear. The law states any CPL from any state. True. But an AG opinion has stated it must be from your home state. You could test it, which I think someone did and was convicted??? I'm not sure on this. But the State police are telling us it must be from your home state.

On another thread I posted that a bill is introduced to recognize any non-resident that can posses a handgun in their home state to posses it in Michigan. Here is the link to the bill, with the gist of it below.

[url]http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2007-2008/billintroduced/House/pdf/2008-HIB-5985.pdf[/url]

(1) Sections 2 an 1d 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(J) A NONRESIDENT WHO IS LICENSED TO CARRY, POSSESS, USE, AND TRANSPORT A PISTOL IN ANOTHER STATE OR WHO IS EXEMPT FROM LICENSURE IN THAT OTHER STATE, WHO CARRIES, POSSESSES, USES, OR TRANSPORTS A PISTOL IN THIS STATE FOR A PERIOD NOT TO EXCEED 30 DAYS. AS USED IN IN THIS SUBDIVISION, "NONRESIDENT" MEANS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS A LAWFUL RESIDENT OF ANOTHER STATE, THE [/b]DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA[/b], OR A TERRITORYOR POSSESSION OF THE UNITED STATES.[/b]

Can you post the AG opinion? I haven't seen one that says the CC permit exemption for possesiononly applies to resident permits. Also who was this someone?

Here is the exemption.

"28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422 and 28.429; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

Sec. 12.

(1) Sections 2 and 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state."

I still do not see how this says the permit must be from the non-residents own state. I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the holder of aCC permit would be usingit to CC and thus not be exempt from the CC law. However possesion and thus OC is expressly legal.

It wasn't an AG opinion and after talking with the MSP I was referred to MCL 28.432a (h) which states exemptions to obtaining a CPL. This states a CPL must be from your home state to be recognized in Michigan. This is all I have found at this time.

FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
Act 372 of 1927


28.432a Persons to whom requirements inapplicable; "local corrections officer" defined.

Sec. 12a.

(1) The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following:

(a) A peace officer of a duly authorized police agency of the United States or of this state or a political subdivision of this state, who is regularly employed and paid by the United States or this state or a subdivision of this state, except a township constable.

(b) A constable who is trained and certified under the commission on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.601 to 28.616, while engaged in his or her official duties or going to or coming from his or her official duties, and who is regularly employed and paid by a political subdivision of this state.

(c) A person regularly employed by the department of corrections and authorized in writing by the director of the department of corrections to carry a concealed pistol during the performance of his or her duties or while going to or returning from his or her duties.

(d) A person regularly employed as a local corrections officer by a county sheriff, who is trained in the use of force and is authorized in writing by the county sheriff to carry a concealed pistol during the performance of his or her duties.

(e) A person regularly employed in a city jail or lockup who has custody of persons detained or incarcerated in the jail or lockup, is trained in the use of force, and is authorized in writing by the chief of police or the county sheriff to carry a concealed pistol during the performance of his or her duties.

(f) A member of the United States army, air force, navy, or marine corps while carrying a concealed pistol in the line of duty.

(g) A member of the national guard, armed forces reserves, or other duly authorized military organization while on duty or drill or while going to or returning from his or her place of assembly or practice or while carrying a concealed pistol for purposes of that military organization.

(h) A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.

(i) The regular and ordinary transportation of a pistol as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

(j) A person while carrying a pistol unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of his or her vehicle or, if the vehicle does not have a trunk, from transporting that pistol unloaded in a locked compartment or container that is separated from the ammunition for that pistol from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(k) A peace officer or law enforcement officer from Canada.

(2) As used in this act, "local corrections officer" means that term as defined in section 2 of the local corrections officers training act, 2003 PA 125, MCL 791.532.




History: Add. 1964, Act 216, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 1976, Act 102, Imd. Eff. Apr. 27, 1976 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 282, Imd. Eff. July 6, 1978 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 519, Imd. Eff. Dec. 19, 1978 ;-- Am. 2000, Act 381, Eff. July 1, 2001 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 719, Eff. July 1, 2003 ;-- Am. 2006, Act 559, Imd. Eff. Dec. 29, 2006
Popular Name: CCW
Popular Name: Concealed Weapons
Popular Name: Right to Carry
Popular Name: Shall Issue
 

vmaxanarchist

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Venator wrote:

"It wasn't an AG opinion and after talking with the MSP I was referred to MCL 28.432a (h) which states exemptions to obtaining a CPL. This states a CPL must be from your home state to be recognized in Michigan. This is all I have found at this time."

I was aware of the law you posted. That was why Iadvised that for a person with only a CC permit not from their home state, they cannot CC. The law in question that requires a resident permit is only a exemption forconcealed and car carry.
 

vmaxanarchist

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Mike wrote:
vmaxanarchist wrote:
Can you post the AG opinion? I haven't seen one that says the CC permit exemption for possesiononly applies to resident permits. Also who was this someone?

Here is the exemption.

"28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422 and 28.429; citation as “Janet Kukuk act”.

Sec. 12.

(1) Sections 2 and 9 do not apply to any of the following:

(f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state."

I still do not see how this says the permit must be from the non-residents own state. I think the confusion comes from the assumption that the holder of aCC permit would be usingit to CC and thus not be exempt from the CC law. However possesion and thus OC is expressly legal.
I think you are on to somthing as for OCing with nonres permit - besides, the nonres discrimination is unconstitutional under the priv. and Imm. clause - law suit in Georgia takibng this on in part right now.
I agree that these discriminatory laws are unconstitutional. However as a practical matter these exemptions are a way for someone like me who cannot obtain a resident permit to carry in Michigan right now, and not have to wait for another SCOTUS opinion.

I also find it ironic that kind of like restaurants in Virginia, Michigan requires me to OC as the only legal way for me to carry while visiting. I can imagine an MI LEO telling me I should conceal after showing him my non-resident UT permit, and having to tell him "sorry, that would be illegal".
 

Big Gay Al

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dougwg wrote:
Like can non-permit holder visiting or moving to Michigan keep the handgun in his home till he gets it safety inspected?
Yes, they can "keep" it at home until he gets it SI. Which I believe should be "immediate". I'm not so sure about the legality's of bringing them into the state while moving here. (who the hell is moving TO Michigan :uhoh: I was just gunna hang out and shut off the lights after everyone has left)
I can tell you, from practical experience. When I moved to Michigan from The People's Democratic Republic of Illinois, in 2001, I called MSP to find out what I had to do with my firearms when I moved here. The officer I talked to, told me that yes, I could bring my firearms into Michigan, since I was moving here permanently. That I'd have to get my pistols registered....sorry, "safety inspected" as soon as it was possible to do so.

I never could get any sort of time table, as far as how soon I had to do this, just that the sooner, the better. Although, he indicated that the best way to do it was to get my driver's license switched first, then get the guns registered. And as long as I didn't do something silly, like carry without a permit, or do something else with them that might draw attention to myself, by members of law enforcement, I'd be fine.

Turned out, this was a good thing. When I went to register my pistols, there was some sort of hiccup in the system, and another person with the same name was coming up as me. This person had a felony record. It took a while (and a couple of phone calls to the Illinois state police) to get the record stuff straightened out.

Needless to say, I got to know the clerks in the Ingham County Sherrif's office pretty well. We were almost on a first name basis. ;) And then, when everything did get straigtened out, I went back later to have a pistol I'd bought, safety inspected, the clerks there (almost all female) would be joking with me the whole time. "I dunno, he's a felon, should we let him keep this very nice pistol? Ah, might as well, I don't think he'll harm us." :D
 

Sheldon

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Now for the good part... althoughit has specific language that originally answers a question pertaining to "Private Investigators" language in the text is not specific on this point, therefore it would seem to indicate that certain areas that are often referred as Criminal Empowerment Zones, do not apply to those who are licensed by the State of Michigan to carry a Concealed Weapon.

from http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10173.htm

: “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison....According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder....that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"



Below is a partial quote of that opinion...







(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.



b) A peace officer.



c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.



d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]



By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition "[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon." Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

 

Venator

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Sheldon wrote:
Now for the good part... althoughit has specific language that originally answers a question pertaining to "Private Investigators" language in the text is not specific on this point, therefore it would seem to indicate that certain areas that are often referred as Criminal Empowerment Zones, do not apply to those who are licensed by the State of Michigan to carry a Concealed Weapon.

from http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10173.htm

: “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison....According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder....that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"



Below is a partial quote of that opinion...







(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:



a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.



b) A peace officer.



c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.



d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]



By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition "[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon." Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

Kind of old news here. Since I'm the one that put all three opinions together some time ago and have included it in our info packet for over 6 months.
 

Big Gay Al

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I have just a few questions and comments on this.

dougwg wrote:
Here is what we lost, gave up.
Express legislative authority for State Police LIEN/centralized pistol database.
You mean, they didn't have this already???

Must either mail or vist PD with purchase permit in 10 days.
Ok, but before it was MUST visit PD with permit and pistol within 10 days. I'd call this one a plus.

Must self-report to police lawful constitutional activity--possession of a pistol.
Already had to do this under the old law. After buying a pistol, have to present it for "safety inspection." No loss, but gain not having to go to the station for fake inspection.

Four copies of permit, not three
Big deal, one more piece of paper, not a different piece, just a copy of another we already have to have.

30 day must carry permit to purchase
What does this mean?

Must show CCP to security officers if stopped
Where does it say that?
 

Sheldon

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Received this e mail today it may help to clarify some issues...


[align=center]Michigan Eliminates it's so-called Pistol 'Safety' Inspection
Commentary by Steve Dulan[/align]


The way we handle post-purchase paperwork for pistols will be changing. New legislation amending Public Act 372, co-sponsored by 4 members of the MCRGO Board of Directors (Representatives Sheltrown and Casperson and Senators Cropsey and Richardville) among others, was signed into law last week by the Governor. The new rules (paraphrased for clarity) are as follows:

The so-called "safety inspection" is eliminated. The seller of a pistol shall immediately record the sale on a 4-part (quadruplicate) form provided by the Department of State Police, which the purchaser shall sign. One copy is kept by the seller. One copy is kept by purchaser. Two copies are sent to the police department or county sheriff within 10 days. The forms can be hand-delivered or sent by first-class or certified mail (I recommend certified and hang onto your receipts.) Failure to comply with this rule is civil infraction punishable by a fine of $250 maximum. Violations will also be reported to the state police and the county gun board.

The police agency will forward one copy to the state police within 48 hours, and keep the other for at least 6 years. The state police will enter the information into the computer data base within 10 days of receiving it. The purchaser has a right to get a copy of the information that is entered to verify the accuracy of the information. The police or sheriff's department can charge a fee of $1.00 maximum for the copy. The purchaser has to keep his/her copy of the form while carrying or using the pistol for the first 30 days after purchase. After that time, the form need not be carried.

This law takes effect January 7th, 2009. Public Acts No. 194, 195, 196.

I've had the opportunity to hear and read many comments on this law, including during a recent visit to the Multi Lakes Conservation Club, where I was honored to be welcomed as a representative of MCRGO and hear questions and comments. Some of the comments expressed disappointment that we still have pistol registration. While it is true that this legislation, like most legislation, has gone through changes from the original proposed law, it is still a victory for gun owners. Even though we didn't get everything on our wish list, our friends in the legislature have managed to eliminate the ridiculous "safety inspection." Now, we don't have to make that trip down to the police station to hold the gun up to the bullet-proof glass for a clerk to copy down the serial number.

Keep in mind that there are legislators who are not at all supportive of gun rights and would just as soon increase our inconvenience and expense rather than make things better for gun owners. Politics in a representative democracy is the art of the possible. While this new law still requires registration, that has been a fact of life for a couple of generations in Michigan. At least we don't have to make that post-purchase trip to the police station anymore once this new law takes effect.

In fact, for those with a CPL (Concealed Pistol License), no trip to the police/sheriff's department is required. The seller simply records the CPL license information on the form and the new owner signs and submits the forms by mail. This is much more efficient and less time-consuming than the old system.

Those of us who think logically about this issue know that the central fallacy of all gun control law is the idea that criminals will obey gun control laws while ignoring other laws. However, we still have a long way to go in convincing our fellow citizens and arriving at a consensus on this issue. Since being elected to the MCRGO Board of Directors a few years back, I've had numerous discussions with gun owners about this simple truth. The best suggestion I have for all of us is to continue to engage gun control advocates in calm, reasoned debate. The truth is on our side of this argument. But, being correct is not sufficient. We have to sway our fellow citizens.

They key area of agreement on both sides of the gun control debate is the desire for safety. Some of our neighbors are lacking in experience with, and knowledge of guns. Why not invite a few anti-gunners to the range? Let them see how a well-run range is one of the safest places on Earth. Let them see that we gun owners are thoughtful, solid citizens. Give them the opportunity to realize that guns are useful in their lives for self-defense and recreation. If we want to further improve the legal and public policy system regarding guns, we need to win more hearts and minds so that our allies in the legislature can continue to push the law more into line with common sense.

In short, instead of complaining that the glass is still half empty, let's congratulate our legislators for successfully pouring a little more water into it even as some of their colleagues were attempting to jostle their collective elbow.
 

Sheldon

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Venator wrote:
Kind of old news here. Since I'm the one that put all three opinions together some time ago and have included it in our info packet for over 6 months.
Ah yesbut you forget those of us that need bigger easer to read un cluttered fonts, I post for that group as well.
 

Venator

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Sheldon wrote:
Venator wrote:
Kind of old news here. Since I'm the one that put all three opinions together some time ago and have included it in our info packet for over 6 months.
Ah yesbut you forget those of us that need bigger easer to read un cluttered fonts, I post for that group as well.
Like me? I don't know what that has to do with posting old information?
 

Sheldon

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Venator wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Venator wrote:
Kind of old news here. Since I'm the one that put all three opinions together some time ago and have included it in our info packet for over 6 months.
Ah yesbut you forget those of us that need bigger easer to read un cluttered fonts, I post for that group as well.
Like me? I don't know what that has to do with posting old information?
so which looks better and is easer to read a cluttered post with a lot of information that is repeated a lot or....
 

Sheldon

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Battle Creek, ,
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Venator wrote:

Like me? I don't know what that has to do with posting old information?
or something like this, as you reply and re quote the thread tends to get messy and may end up being reposted to clean things up to be easer to follow, at 50sh your eyes are in better condition than they will be at 57 so please have pity on those of us with not quite there vision. I keep telling my 21 year old that this is the reason he is a better shot at 100 + yards his eyes are shaper than mine are now but just wait someday he will understand...
 

theboyzmom

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Jun 14, 2008
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New Lothrop, Michigan, USA
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This is a bit late in the conversation, but my understanding of the ability to carry with a permit from another state is based upon the reciept of the permit from the other state. For someone to get one in most states, you must be a resident of that state. The legislative intent was to allow people to carry thier guns when they visit our state. I am not sure if you would be legal to go to another state and get a CPL based upon out of state residence. But I could be wrong - it happens a couple of times a day. :lol:
 

Bronson

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Jul 14, 2008
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Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
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theboyzmom wrote:
I am not sure if you would be legal to go to another state and get a CPL based upon out of state residence.
There are states that offer non-resident permits or allow non-residents to obtain a permit.

Bronson
 
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