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Thread: Handcuffs.... Voice Recorders...

  1. #1
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    I have been reading through all the forms.... Not just the oregon one... And Iv read that alot of people actually carry a pair of handcuffs on them... Does anyone have any thoughts on this?? I think its a pretty strainge idea... I mean.. if my lifes in danger in not gonna think about handcuffing them.. lol... but wat do you guys think about this??

    And now to Voice recoders... Do you have to Tell a police officer you are recording the conversation?? can anyone give me the laws on this?? And do you think i should get a voice recoder and start carrying it?

    Im just curious wat Oregons laws are on this

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    Dead men don't need to be handcuffed...

    Voice recorders...I can't open carry in AR..so don't really need one. Even when I open carry in KY and TN I don't really see the need for a recorder.
    Chris Matthews
    Executive Director | Arkansas Carry
    ============================
    e: chris.matthews@arkansascarry.com
    o: www.arkansascarry.com
    p: 501-291-4839

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    Do you have to Tell a police officer you are recording the conversation??

    Generally not. There are a few questionable states where you may have to have permission or give notification. Generally, if you are in public, there is no expectation of privacy and anything you can say is fair game for being recorded. I would NEVER tell anyone I am recording a call or conversation (of course I live in a 1 party state)

    can anyone give me the laws on this??


    Sure thing:

    http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

    Or. Rev. Stat. §§ 165.535, 165.540: It is illegal to obtain or divulge a telecommunication or radio communication, unless one is a party or has obtained consent from at least one party to the conversation. It is illegal to obtain or divulge an oral communication unless all parties to the communication are informed that their conversation is being obtained. Certain enumerated exceptions apply. Violations are punishable by a maximum sentence of $5000 or one year in jail.
    Or. Rev. Stat. § 165.543: It is also a misdemeanor to intercept a wire or oral communication where one is not a party to the communication, and none of the parties to the communication have consented.
    Under the statute, consent is not required for the taping of a non-electronic communication uttered by a person who does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that communication. See definition of "oral communication," Or. Rev. Stat. § 133.721.
    Apparently, in Oregon, you have to give notice that you are going to obtain the conversation. I would say no more than "I am going to obtain this conversation" and leave it at that. If they can't figure out the meaning, that is their problem. Just make sure you get it on tape.

    Alternatively, exercise your right to remain silent as a "conversation" requires the involvement of 2 or more people so said an oregon appeals court.

    And do you think i should get a voice recoder and start carrying it?



    I think you are silly to not have one at any time or any place.

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    Carry a voice recorder, and notify. Reading the law, I don't believe you are required to notify, but the police think so, as does the DA, and it will cost you a lot of money to prove that you didn't have to. Just do it.

    I don't carry handcuffs, and I think personally that it'd be a bit "mall ninja" to do so, but that's just me. To each his own.

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    If and only if you are in a state that requires it, I would make the most oblique statement regarding "documenting" or making a record and not recording the event.

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    Glockguy wrote:
    ...Do you have to Tell a police officer you are recording the conversation?? can anyone give me the laws on this?? And do you think i should get a voice recoder and start carrying it?

    Im just curious wat Oregons laws are on this


    Oregon,is an ALL-PARTY state when it comes to recording conversations. You must notify all parties involved that you are recording the conversation. See ORS 165.640(1)(c)

    Here is a link to a thread about a couple of guys up in Portland that did NOT notify the LEOs they were recording and were arrested for it:

    codename_47 wrote: [/b]


    If and only if you are in a state that requires it, I would make the most oblique statement regarding "documenting" or making a record and not recording the event.
    That sounds likea good way to do it, as long as you're clear saying it in the recording. Using a little verbal slight-of-hand in the rare case you would interact with one of the few non-friendly LEOsthat doesn't want the conversation recorded and would accidentally "drops" your recorder.

    Mine's going directly onto the micro SD card of my cellphone, so even if the phone was destroyed, I think the micro SD card would survive to tell the tale

    If they figure out the conversation and ask you why, tell them "Some friends of mine thought police officers would be real jerks about me open carrying, and I want to record this so I can prove them wrong! "

    ...Officer, I am making a record of this conversation -harrassment's greatest hits!...
    ...Orygunner...

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    For some reason I couldn't get the links to stick in my previous reply no matter how hard I tried...

    Here's the link to ORS chapter 165 (concerns recording starting at 165.535):

    http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/165.html

    And here's the link to the case of the guys up in Portland arrested for violating165.540(1)(c).

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum45/9080.html

    ...Orygunner...

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Handcuffs? What the heck for? Handcuffs require two hands to apply, which means you will have to holster your gun. If you were felt that the risk was such that you didn’t need to keep the bad guy at gunpoint, you pretty much wrote your case for not having drawn in the first place.

    If you holster your weapon to handcuff the guy and he jumps up and runs away, what are you going to do?
    Do you have any training or practice handcuffing a person?
    Can you do it without injuring the person?
    Do you really want to get contagious-disease close to the criminal?
    Now, whydo you want to carry handcuffs again?


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    Orygunner wrote:
    Glockguy wrote:
    ...Do you have to Tell a police officer you are recording the conversation?? can anyone give me the laws on this?? And do you think i should get a voice recoder and start carrying it?

    Im just curious wat Oregons laws are on this


    Oregon,is an ALL-PARTY state when it comes to recording conversations. You must notify all parties involved that you are recording the conversation. See ORS 165.640(1)(c)
    Just to clarify: Oregon requires notification, not consent. When we think of an all-party state, we think of an all-party consent state, which Oregon is not.

    Oregon is one-party consent for telecommunications, which means you can record your own phone call, but be sure when you're recording the cop that you don't accidentally catch his radio traffic. (Stupid, huh?) There's a specific rule for recording phone calls and other telecommunications that you "overhear".

    The same set of statutes prohibits the use of those little "spy ear" things that amplify sound, as well. Insanity.




    If they figure out the conversation and ask you why, tell them "Some friends of mine thought police officers would be real jerks about me open carrying, and I want to record this so I can prove them wrong! "
    This is a great answer. Wish I'd thought of it.

  10. #10
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    IANAL, but:

    Recording the audio of his radio call would not be intercepting a telecommunication or radio communication, as it is no longer being intercepted by radio wave.None of the parties involvedwould havean expectation of privacy if it is audible in public. It's also an official communication, subject to FOIA, so there goes any penalty for "divulging" it; at worst you would subpoena it and they can't deny it.

    I cannot see any possible purpose in a person whose job does not include restraining people carrying handcuffs. Even if you work as a private security person, your chances of being charged with assault and unlawful restraint, perhaps even kidnapping,are far better than your chances of actually restraining someone legitimately.

    It's not my place to restrain people. If someone threatens me with a credible risk of death or grave injury, I can defend myself, including shooting them if necessary. I can't see any circumstances where the law or morality would require (or in most cases even allow) me to physically restrain them. It's also more dangerous to me, and people in my vicinity.
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

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  11. #11
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    thebastidge wrote:
    IANAL, but:

    Recording the audio of his radio call would not be intercepting a telecommunication or radio communication, as it is no longer being intercepted by radio wave.None of the parties involvedwould havean expectation of privacy if it is audible in public. It's also an official communication, subject to FOIA, so there goes any penalty for "divulging" it; at worst you would subpoena it and they can't deny it.
    Ok, I'll lay it out as I understand it:

    ORS 133.721:

    (3) “Electronic communication” means any transfer of signs, signals, writing, images, sounds, data or intelligence of any nature transmitted in whole or in part by a radio, electromagnetic, photoelectronic or photo-optical system, or transmitted in part by wire, but does not include:
    Summary: A radio transmission is an electronic communication.

    133.721 Definitions for ORS 41.910 and 133.721 to 133.739. As used in ORS 41.910 and 133.721 to 133.739, unless the context requires otherwise:

    [...]

    (7) “Oral communication” means: (b) An utterance by a person who is participating in a wire or electronic communication, if the utterance is audible to another person who, at the time the wire or electronic communication occurs, is in the immediate presence of the person participating in the communication.
    So an electronic communication occuring in your presence is an oral communication.


    165.535 Definitions applicable to obtaining contents of communications. As used in ORS 41.910, 133.723, 133.724, 165.540 and 165.545: (1) “Conversation” means the transmission between two or more persons of an oral communication [...]
    Oral communications occurring between two or more persons (officer and dispatcher) is a conversation, and...


    165.540 Obtaining contents of communications. (1) Except as otherwise provided in ORS 133.724 or 133.726 or subsections (2) to (7) of this section, a person may not:

    (c) Obtain or attempt to obtain the whole or any part of a conversation by means of any device [...] if not all participants in the conversation are specifically informed that their conversation is being obtained.
    It's illegal to obtain the contents of conversations.

    As mentioned, there is a specific exception for obtaining electronic communications transmitted by law enforcement officers, and if you happened to have a scanner on you, and happen to be listening to the talkgroup/channel he's talking on, maybe, maybe an expensive lawyer could make that argument work for you.

    Another saving grace might be that the dispatcher's communications didn't count as "oral communications," meaning that no conversation took place, meaning nothing was protected. And then there is all the lines of defense we dreamed up for my case that we never got to test because the plea deal was cheaper and quicker... are probably applicable as well. If you can afford to fight it.

    So, in summary: It's legal to record him on your scanner, but not if he's standing next to you. Retarded, isn't it?

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    Mainsail wrote:
    SNIP
    Do you have any training or practice handcuffing a person?
    Can you do it without injuring the person?
    I have military police (handcuff) training. Do I carry handcuffs? No. Would I? I accidentallyhave had some in my BDU pocket from time to time. Can I handcuff a person without injuring them? Yes. Why would I? Citizens arrest, but chances are, I am not going to, even if I have handcuffs. Unless there is more than one BG and I need to restrain them for some reason, I would just use pain compliance until LEO showed up. Chances are, I personally would just prone any BGs out and hold them at gunpoint until PD shows up.

    LOL! I was kind of wishy-washy on this post. Main line: 99% of the time I will not handcuff, but I can if needs be (if cuffs are on me).

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    Glockguy wrote:
    I have been reading through all the forms.... Not just the oregon one... And Iv read that a lot of people actually carry a pair of handcuffs on them...
    Like who??

    .

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