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Thread: Odd situation today while CC'ing at the mall...

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    I was at the mall today with my lovely g/f and her sister shopping around. We procede to leave and head out to dinner with her parents.

    We are walking through a pretty packed parking lot, a car pulls into a handicap spot in front of us and we keep on walking, as thinking nothing of it. The woman in the car yells out "I am backing up" as we are walking behind and backs into us. I narrowly escape and tap the trunk as she almost runs me over. She still keeps going and almost runs over my g/f who yells out "watch out" and taps the trunk as well.

    Some could construe tapping the trunk as "aggression" but what else are you to do as a 4000lb object comes at you and you try to dodge the way! I've had it done to my vehicle a time or two when someone appears out of my rear I didn't see in a parking garage.

    But we keep walking and ignore it - no harm no foul - one shouldn't get them selves into confrontations. The woman starts screaming expletives at us while we are walking away, all while her young 4-5 year old child is in the car with her. It goes on for 10-15 seconds as we are walking with her adding a "I will kick your ass" on the end of it.

    My g/f knows better than to engage in verbal confrontations, especially now that I carry. Leading on arguments is just, as you all know, a bad situation. So we say nothing and walk to my vehicle.

    My question being, if the woman actually got out of her vehicle and started to approach us, at what point would you deem it acceptable to switch to defensive mode? If she started approaching and got within 50 feet, what would you do? Demand her to stop? Switch to OC if she doesn't stop and continues towards you? At that point the confrontation really escalates - I would have had one of them get on the phone with 911 first off if she had gotten out and followed. To me it seems like an all around bad situation which thankfully never got anywhere near out of hand. I think most are filled with hot air, which graciously this turned out to be.

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    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    You done good. She was not a threat (at least once you avoided her car), so you did right by not escalating the situation. Let blow hards blow and walk away when you can.
    If she approached me aggressively on foot I would walk into the mall. She simply isn't a real threat.

    Do not go from CC to OC without a serious physical threat from the BG - that's brandishing.

    It sounds like both you and your gf are well versed in the need to keep cool while carrying. Well done.

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    IMHO, you handled it as you should have......if she had started heading towards me/us when she got out of her car, I would have dialed 911. I don't think that I would have gone from CC to OC unless she was obviously armed and appeared to be a real threat though....just my .02

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, a simply pissed off lady doesn't construe a deadly or serious threat........I'd be ready to OC her though if she wanted to fight with you. Only if she pulled out a weapon or turned out to be a champion kickboxer with the intent to kill you would you be justified in pulling your weapon and using it........I'd just ignore her like you did and just be ready with the less than lethal tools if she wanted to make it physical.......

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    Thanks all, I agree it didn't construe deadly threat. I didn't even think about the firearm issue until I got into the car and headed to dinner.

    Too many crazy people out there.

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    Two things, one is I think you did good by ignoring her the best you could. I don't see a thing wrong with what you did.

    Second I would like to commend you on your statement about you girlfriend not engaging in verbal confrontations now that you carry. More people should pick up on this and thankfully I have heard many say that they now let things slide that they would not have before. If carrying helps someone develop a new outlook on trivial disagreements then I am all for them carrying OC or CC. Unfortunately there are some that have stated that carrying a gun gives them a feeling of power and safety that they are now ready to tackle anything. Thank goodness they are the small minority.

    Well done.

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    I'm not quite sure of the details but it sounds like either assault or, if there is such a thing, reckless endangerment.

    Alone, I'd have been writing down a license number and plannig a visit toa magistrate. Especially if the vehicle had made contact with me.

    Then, if she started making verbal noise and threats, I'd have made a pre-emptive call to the police.

    "Yes, dispatcher, after narrowly missing running us over, she then threatened to beat our a$$es."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Two things, one is I think you did good by ignoring her the best you could. I don't see a thing wrong with what you did.

    Second I would like to commend you on your statement about you girlfriend not engaging in verbal confrontations now that you carry. More people should pick up on this and thankfully I have heard many say that they now let things slide that they would not have before. If carrying helps someone develop a new outlook on trivial disagreements then I am all for them carrying OC or CC. Unfortunately there are some that have stated that carrying a gun gives them a feeling of power and safety that they are now ready to tackle anything. Thank goodness they are the small minority.

    Well done.
    Agreed, she understood when we started dating I told her, "doesn't matter what anyone says to you, walk away (unless they are coming at you or threatening you, then walk away and call the police)"

    Far to many people will confront when someone "disses" them and it is becoming pretty bad in our society I think. The better man/woman is the one that can walk away.

    And carrying a firearm, you BETTER had walk away from someone spouting garbage.

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    Citizen wrote:
    I'm not quite sure of the details but it sounds like either assault or, if there is such a thing, reckless endangerment.

    Alone, I'd have been writing down a license number and plannig a visit toa magistrate. Especially if the vehicle had made contact with me.

    Then, if she started making verbal noise and threats, I'd have made a pre-emptive call to the police.

    "Yes, dispatcher, after narrowly missing running us over, she then threatened to beat our a$$es."
    I thought about it afterwards when we got back to our vehicle. Sort of wish I did sort of glad I didn't waste my time on it type of deal.

    This is a civilized society, we can't have people threatening to "kick your ass" because they tried to run you over!

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    I have to wonder...since it's not clear here....

    What was her intent in yelling "I'm backing up!" - did she see you and it was an angry / menacing "Stay the **** out of my way you pedestrian a-holes" kind of yell...?

    or since she was pulling into a handicap spot...perhaps she had limited vision and/or range of motion and it was a verbal "back-up beeper" since she was unable to verify the area behind her as clear...?

    If it was the latter, she could have perceived you as being aggressive for walking behind her despite her "warning" and was ticked at you for being a jerk....?

    Either way...nice that it ended harmlessly.
    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

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    You did just fine. Unless she was Wonder Womanor hada weapon, most men can roundhouse a woman and stop the threat. I don't advocate that....but.....beats drawing on her at this point.

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    hsmith wrote:
    My question being, if the woman actually got out of her vehicle and started to approach us, at what point would you deem it acceptable to switch to defensive mode?
    My God man you are talking about a woman. An unarmed woman what are you afraid of? The answer would be after she put her front paws on you or your girl friends. If all she does is slap you you walk away or let your girl fiend deal with her. If she displays a weapon with intent to do you grievous bodily harm or trys top mow you down with her car than you shoot her until she stops but come on dude it is a disabled woman go eat some Wheaties

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    LongRider wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    My question being, if the woman actually got out of her vehicle and started to approach us, at what point would you deem it acceptable to switch to defensive mode?
    My God man you are talking about a woman. An unarmed woman what are you afraid of? The answer would be after she put her front paws on you or your girl friends. If all she does is slap you you walk away or let your girl fiend deal with her. If she displays a weapon with intent to do you grievous bodily harm or trys top mow you down with her car than you shoot her until she stops but come on dude it is a disabled woman go eat some Wheaties
    Good Lord, where have you been? Don't you know the femi-Nazis would have a cow if he didn't punch her senseless in response to her slapping him? After all don't those nut cases think men and women are the same and therefore should be treated exactly the same?

    Flatten her then walk away. Keep the femi-Nazis happy the the PC squirrels content.

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    When to switch to defensive mode? I would as soon as she started talking aggressively to me. A person can go from talk, to attacking and skipping everything between in no time flat. Now I not saying I would have been ready to draw down on her or anything, but I would keep my eye on her, I would have been in condition red.

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    LongRider wrote:
    come on dude it is a disabled woman go eat some Wheaties
    Or, someone driving their elderly relative's car just so she can take the handicapped spot by the store.

    It's more likely than you think, and this woman seems to be enough of an arse to do something like that.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    You can be a defensive as you'd like, but what you can't do, at least not in North Carolina, is escalate the threat. If she is yelling and cursing, in NC the law is that "words can not provoke an assault". If she starts throwing rotten tomatoes at you, you can't pull you gun, that would be escalating the threat by the use of deadly force.

    In NC you have a duty to retreat, or you can stand there and argue with a moron. Personally I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man (or woman).

    Here, at least in public, you have a duty to retreat, and not raise the threat level.

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    rangerdavid wrote:
    You can be a defensive as you'd like, but what you can't do, at least not in North Carolina, is escalate the threat. If she is yelling and cursing, in NC the law is that "words can not provoke an assault". If she starts throwing rotten tomatoes at you, you can't pull you gun, that would be escalating the threat by the use of deadly force.

    In NC you have a duty to retreat, or you can stand there and argue with a moron. Personally I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man (or woman).

    Here, at least in public, you have a duty to retreat, and not raise the threat level.
    Good response, RangerDavid.

    It needs just one tiny ingredient more that I'm sure you didn't realize. On this board we cite the law. Would you cite the case youdid on the other thread, please.

    From the forum rules:

    7) if you state a rule of law, it is incumbant upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when avaiable,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    hsmith wrote:
    My question being, if the woman actually got out of her vehicle and started to approach us, at what point would you deem it acceptable to switch to defensive mode? If she started approaching and got within 50 feet, what would you do? Demand her to stop? Switch to OC if she doesn't stop and continues towards you? At that point the confrontation really escalates - I would have had one of them get on the phone with 911 first off if she had gotten out and followed. To me it seems like an all around bad situation which thankfully never got anywhere near out of hand. I think most are filled with hot air, which graciously this turned out to be.
    "Defensive mode?" I'm not sure, exactly, what you're trying to describe. There's nothing wrong with giving a verbal challenge (ie: stop) to a threat.

    "Switch to OC?" I agree grandma can put one down just as fast as a hardened criminal, but each situation is dependant. Whenever one carries a gun (and they should AWAYS carry their gun), every confrontation they get into involves a gun. When to go to the gun is dependant on the ammount of force the bad guy in the case.

    One has to be smart in choosing their fights. Sometimes it's just better to walk away. In any event, it's better to not get shot than it is to shoot the badguy.

    *edit - there'd be nothing wrong with calling the police than to get the police called on you by the old woman or a 3rd party.
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

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    In this situation I was taught to use the "Reasonable Person" standards.

    First, who is the possible attacker?

    Sounds like it was an unarmedwoman who may or may not have been handicapped. A reasonable man would assume that no deadly force was needed to defend against this woman, and therefore no weapon was needed. Which is exactly how you interperated the situation, job well done!

    Now, if it was the other way around.

    If you were the woman, and a man was the aggressor, weapon or not, a reasonable person would assume that a certain level of self defense was needed. Therefore, "skinning your smokewagon", IMO, would have been justified.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    For this scenario a gun is appropriate in my view. I would suggest handling and most interpersonal conflicts as if you had no firearm at all. A handguns primary use is to defend your life, in most cases it pretty obvious when you need to use it.

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    Let's keep in mind thathitting someone with a car is battery, and threatening them with a car is assault. So the woman has possibly assaulted HSMITH with the carand continues with a verbal assault after parking. Fortunately, no injuriesoccurred from the initial assault, and HSMITH acted appropriately by doing nothing.

    Even given that, had she continuedher unarmed approach, I have a hard time imagining ANY situation where I would drawon her. Drawing your weapon assumes you are prepared to fire and this doesn't pass that test for me.

    Even ifshe was beating on the g/f with a cane I'd likely try to pull her offinstead of brandishingand/or using a weapon. There are an awful lot ofserious consequences involved.What if it was a huge 'roid-raging male bodybuilder? What if the it was a huge 'roid-raging female bodybuilder? What if she was a little old granny?

    Actually my first though was that I'd run away beforeshe got too close. I don't mess with crazy people.

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    If she hit you and then verbally assaulted you, it would appear she is a thug. Society doesn't need thugs randomly assaulting and battering others.

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    Unless she was a 300 pound power lifter for the Russian Olympic team with a mean unibrow I'd say even if she did approach you you were not in any real danger. Besides, I believe in equal rights for everyone. One hit and I'd take her down with a right hook.
    "Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world." ~ Musashi

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    There sure are a lot of people around here who are willing to get into a fistfight while they are armed.

    Yeah it's a woman and all, but any physical encounter is going to make it very difficult to be aware of the rest of your surroundings and keep your gun safe.

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    asforme wrote:
    There sure are a lot of people around here who are willing to get into a fistfight while they are armed.
    Well, thank you very much for handing ammunition to the anti-gunners.

    Whose side are you on anyway?

    I scanned the thread and only saw one who mentioned slugging a woman, and even then it was only in a general context regarding likely effectiveness.

    For the occasional one that does show up on the forum, great. That's one of the reasonswe're here--to educate. In this case to educate new members on the fine points of self-defense, including law on self-defense.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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