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Thread: Home Defense Against Police Raid

  1. #1
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    This is a terrible tragedy, but it could happen to anyone.

    Anyone in a self defense situation has to make split-second decisions, but any action taken is subject to review.

    See the links below for details (and avery interesting discussions).

    http://hamptonroads.com/2008/06/pros...ryan-frederick

    http://antipolicemisconduct.meetup.com/37/boards/

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    Another victim to the "war on drugs" that has done nothing to curb drug usage and only turned America into a police state where we have no idea whether or not the folks busting down our front doors are criminals or agents of our Police state. Unfortunately my bullets don't know the difference either.

    Now all any smart home invader has to do to disarm any LAC is announce that they are police and have a warrant before breaking and entering.

    Lets hope a Jury not only finds this man innocent, but finds the police department responsible for putting these officers lives on the line for the sake of killing a plant.

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    Maybe I could see consideration of involuntary manslaughter. Maybe.


    But guess what? You know who's responsible for bullsh*t like this? It's not the pansy-assed liberals... it's not the evil, demonic Democrats who want to take your guns... not those evil bastards at the ACLU who want to award an orphanage to every child molester... You can thank all of the good conservatives who know what's better for your body than you do!



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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    You can't fire through your door. The warrant was lawful, the guy had weed. It is not murder, even 2nd degree,and no jury would convict him of that. Voluntary manslaughter "acting with reckless disregard of the potential to take a life without defense of situation and in so doing taking a life." Too bad for the cop, and I mean that, although I am clearly no big fan of kicking in doors for a misdemeanor allegation. And allegation is all a search warrant is based upon. But he was just doing his job.



    PS: Should have added to make a charge of 2nd degree murder, it must be established that the accused had intent to kill the victim. That won't fly in this case, hence voluntary manslaughter. This is a case that looks like plea bargain, to me. The DA will say I'll push 2nd dm, the defense will say shove it. May even plea out at involuntary--if there is something fishy about the way the cops acted. Still, I'll say it again, I'm sorry for the police officer and his family. This should not have happened.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Gunslinger wrote:
    You can't fire through your door. The warrant was lawful, the guy had weed. It is not murder, even 2nd degree,and no jury would convict him of that. Voluntary manslaughter "acting with reckless disregard of the potential to take a life without defense of situation and in so doing taking a life." Too bad for the cop, and I mean that, although I am clearly no big fan of kicking in doors for a misdemeanor allegation. And allegation is all a search warrant is based upon. But he was just doing his job.
    I am going to agree with you....

    I will give him as much as maybe he did not know who was on the other side of the door.

    He was reckless in his decision to shoot when he did.... I would rather go for Manslaughter. The "threat" came to him..... he did not search out a victim.

    Disclaimer: This opinion is madewith the belief that Ryan had no clue the police were approaching his door and he was not trying to stop them [the police]from getting in.

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    It appears that the informant who told the cops that Frederick had a grow operation going did so to; A: revenge upon Frederick for accusing him of stealing, and B: provide the cops a drug-bust to have a grand larceny charge dropped. Now the informant is a fugitive wanted by Chesapeake police, and Frederick was found to have only a misdemeanor amount of pot.

    The PD aren't getting their stories straight about whether theyidentified/announced themselves as police before breaching; whether they returned fire or not, and where a mystery fired .223 case came from (Fredericks fired a .380, and did not have a .223/5.56mm firearm).

    This guy was wrong for firing before identifying the threat. But he was definitely set up by a person with a criminal track-record seeking to have charges expunged..... and is now being railroaded by a police department & DA not willing to admit that one of their own was killed in a raid based on a criminal's say-so alone.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Not this BS again. We've already had how many closed threads on this? Use the search function people.


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    longwatch wrote:
    Not this BS again. We've already had how many closed threads on this? Use the search function people.
    Or read http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/13020.html

    The Case is a travesty none the less.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Not this BS again. We've already had how many closed threads on this? Use the search function people.
    Or read http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/13020.html

    The Case is a travesty none the less.
    There was another thread that was having a good discussion grand juries. It was closed because a name calling...

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    Be interesting to see if the dead officer was killed by the .223? I seriously doubt a .380 will go through a bullet resistant vest. So, either the officer was hit somewhere the vest didn't protect....or he was shot by a high powered gun. (Anyone remember Waco??)



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    Northern-Lights wrote:
    Be interesting to see if the dead officer was killed by the .223? I seriously doubt a .380 will go through a bullet resistant vest. So, either the officer was hit somewhere the vest didn't protect....or he was shot by a high powered gun. (Anyone remember Waco??)
    There have been many cases where the officer was hit in a spot the vest was not protecting.

    Below the arm pit or the neck.

    Some cops wearing vests were also killed with a simple little .22 cal gun in jsut that way. Some bad guys have gotten off some real lucky shots.

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    Some Good Guys have gotten off some lucky shots too.

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    AnaxImperator wrote:
    It appears that the informant who told the cops that Frederick had a grow operation going did so to; A: revenge upon Frederick for accusing him of stealing, and B: provide the cops a drug-bust to have a grand larceny charge dropped. Now the informant is a fugitive wanted by Chesapeake police, and Frederick was found to have only a misdemeanor amount of pot.
    This seems to be a huge source of no-knock disasters - informants who give malicious and/or wrong information out to cops just to get some time knocked off their sentences.

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    Overtaxed wrote:
    AnaxImperator wrote:
    It appears that the informant who told the cops that Frederick had a grow operation going did so to; A: revenge upon Frederick for accusing him of stealing, and B: provide the cops a drug-bust to have a grand larceny charge dropped. Now the informant is a fugitive wanted by Chesapeake police, and Frederick was found to have only a misdemeanor amount of pot.
    This seems to be a huge source of no-knock disasters - informants who give malicious and/or wrong information out to cops just to get some time knocked off their sentences.
    Time for some letters to the judiciary that their standards (lack of)of reliability for tips justifying no-knock raidsis getting people killed?

    The cops have no incentive to knock it off. Givinga better plea bargain is probably a great negotiating tool for them.

    There is a little line in Terry vs Ohio where the court quoted an earlier opinion from 1948. The courts understand there is a competitive aspect to policing--that getting bad guys is important to a police officer's career:

    "...police officers whose judgment is necessarily colored by their primary involvement in "the often competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime." Johnson v. United States, 333 U.S. 10, 14 (1948).



    This is off on a tanget, but in looking up the above cite, I came across again in Terry vs Ohio something that bears repeating.

    For as this Court has always recognized,


    No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law.
    Union Pac. R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891). (Emphasis mine)



    No right is held more sacred. None. For the common law, this is the most important right.

    Keep that in mind the next time some police officer or other dissenter tries to persuade you why its OK to interfer with an OC'er in the absence of genuine reasonable suspicion.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    It seems like this guy is the victim of one of these "no-knock"search warrants. Perhaps it was a "knock" warrant, but apparently these cops gave the guy about a half second to react before they started hammering the door down.

    How can anyone hear (in the dead of night or anytime else) or much less respond to a shouting individual outside your door? It's impossible.

    This is the basis of what happend in Waco. Cowboys stormed the place shooting (straffed by a helicopter) and wounding people and children--only the the people inside decided to shoot back. All over a tax stamp on some class 3 weapons which they were entitled to own (the Dividians had an FFL and made money at gun shows). At best their crime amounted toa$1,000.00 fine

    Now if it were I who was having their door knocked down by masked men in military uniforms outside my door--the outcome would be much, much worsethan what happened here.

    This is what I mean by LEO's becoming "militarized." In their training the young guys now are programed with the "us versus them" attitude, and it sticks.

    There are fewer and fewer old guys left to teach the kids how thing should work.

    This happens all over the country. Military style raids on matters that are at best a citation and misdemeanor.

    I can see going in like this against MS13 gang members, against known violent criminals, but not against people who have no prior history of violence.

    ST



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    It takes alot more to obtain a warrant than just some guy (a known criminal in this case) saying that someoneis selling or has dope,or a grow in their house. If it were that easy, My Dept. would be doing raids all day long, every day.

    Fact is that an Officer has to prove to a Judge why/how he knows that the warrant is justified. Not enough proof.....no warrant. The Judges have the ultimate say so in these cases, and heresay dosen't cut it. Theinformant who gives the info also has to be shown as reliable, as this is not assumed.

    It's easy to blame the Police whenthese warrants go sideways, but before it ever got planned, a Judge gave it his blessing/signature. It is the job of Police to act to reduce crime, and raids are a useful tool to shut down criminals.

    If you have ever lived in the vicinity of a drug house, any honest reasonable person would be asking the police to do something about it as well. The alternative is to tolerate it and do nothing, which is very close to condoning it This is what the sheep of our society do.Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution?

    Another thing to remember is that when you break the law, you give up many of your rights. You canthen be detained, arrested, jailed, held without bail, judged, and sentenced.

    In this example, the resident fired through a closed door, at something he couldn't even see or identify.That is not acceptable from any standpoint, andis pure negligence. What if it had been an emergency andhis frantic neighbor wasbanging on his door for help. If you can't identify your target, you can't shoot at it.

    Remember the standard; what would a Reasonable person have done in this situation. What you will face in the courtroom is a Judge, Jury, and witnesseswho are deemedreasonable people, and it would be damn hard to make these actions seem justified.


    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Johnny Law wrote:
    In this example, the resident fired through a closed door, at something he couldn't even see or identify.That is not acceptable from any standpoint, andis pure negligence. What if it had been an emergency andhis frantic neighbor wasbanging on his door for help.
    They were using a battering ram and had already put a hole through the door. He saw a face looking at him through the hole. He shot. I've had a neighbor frantically bang on my door for help but never create a hole big enough to stick their head through in that door. He knew that on the other side of the door was someone putting a hole in his door and imminently breaching it. He saw the hole and saw a face as I understand the story.

    I understand your points Johnny Law and typically agree with you. I am pro-LEO and recognize the difficult job you guys do, the necessity and have often lamented the hamstringing of LEOs by PC crap. However, this particular case doesn't thus far pass the smell test on the LEO side of things.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Just curious, how did you know that? It's true, but how did you know?

    I maintain good relations with the cops in my city.

    My neighbor is the chief of police, who lives across the street. I keep this guy straight on events and politics. This city where I live (name excluded) has a no tolerance policy on gangs.... that is if you even appear to be a gang member, you will be spread out on the sidewalk, searched and your car stripped apart. Despite being surrounded by Los Angeles, Hawthorne and othercities we have no gang problems in this city.

    And to answer the main question now... police training has more to do with political indoctrination than with training. The indoctrination is disguised in "how to" with procedures, rather than actual laws.

    A perfect example is San Francisco PD who ignore obvioius violations (sometimes serious) and are instructed to focus on policital agendas (harrasment of property owners, revenue farming, hate crimes, etc.). The prodcedures are to advance political agendas rather than to enforce law--the LEO's of today can't tell what is going on because of the dumbed-down education levels.

    The sad thing is that these dumb young F's who are the LEO's obey orders without question.

    Let's pose a hypothetical situation: suppose someone called into a 911 hotline pretending to be a child at a "christian school," claiming to be the ongoing victim of molestation--then hung up. Under our modern comedy of regulations and proceedures, child services would probably obtain child protective orders from a Judge... then instruct the LEO's to pick up and hold in protective custody all of the kids at that school. All without investigation.With no one asking questions, only obeying orders.

    Most LEO's would obey an obvious illegal and unconstitutional order without question.

    This already happened in Texas recently.

    An LEO's only motivation is their paycheck and pension.

    Control this and you control your LEO's.

    If you live in a moderate or liberal area chances are that your police are mere extentions of the political machine controling them (city and county gov).

    Now lets look at an ideal law enforcement situation... Sherrif Joe Arpio in Arizona. Joeuses civilians (several thousand of them) as armed posse. He actually catches and holds law breakers (inlcluding illegal aliens) in his tent city. There's zero tolorance on everything. He is not a "revenue farmer" for county government . He knows that the citizens of his county are his boss--not the other way around. He is the toughest and fairest Sherrif in the land. The county does not control or even try to manipulate Joe. Joe is the supreme law enforcement officer in his county.

    Just the opposite of this is Los Angeles Sherrif Bacca (which means stupid in Japanese). This guy has his head up each and every county supervisors a-hole; a state which he constantly maintains. He is the most politicaly manipulated sherrif in the united states. He actually thinks that the county supervisors control his office. He doesn't know that he is an independent law enforcement official. He carries out policies of the supervisors and special interest groups. This is why the gang problem has gotten out of control in LA county. He is unwilling to act in an agressive independent manner. And by all accounts of officers who rub shoulders with this guy--he is a complete dope. He is a political animal, not a cop.

    To further answer the question.... I have several friends who are LA County Sherrifs. They keep me in the know.

    Here's something that could be tried in many problem counties in thenation--run for sherrif.You'd don't need a law enforcement background to become a county sherrif. It is not a requirement, not even in California. If we had some people (with law or military backgrounds) like this who wouldrun for sherrif (not congress, or supervisor, or state office) we could start to take this county back large section by large section.

    Imagine it... a bunch of key counties in the UScontrolled by guys like Sherrif Joe. Crackdowns on illegals and MS13 gangs. Armed badged posse. Open carry not only allowed but encouraged--no required. Concealed carry permits issued within five minutes.


    Could you imagineif what would happen if someone likeB1 Bob Dornan ran for sherriff of Orange or Los Angeles County--then won. We could start to turn things around in a meaningful way.

    What if Mike Stollwick (one of the guys behind this board) ran for Sherrif in his county and won?

    Wow! Could you imagine it?

    ST





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    good post takezo

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    I'm saying this should be tried in areas where it will have a good likelyhood of succeding. And the run should not be a joke... it should be dead serious.An ex military man--someone decorated, an ex-DA, and ex-congressman or assemblyman, or city official.

    It would definately start to shake things up a bit.

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    This guy was wrong for firing before identifying the threat. But he was definitely set up by a person with a criminal track-record seeking to have charges expunged..... and is now being railroaded by a police department & DA not willing to admit that one of their own was killed in a raid based on a criminal's say-so alone.

    In this example, the resident fired through a closed door, at something he couldn't even see or identify.That is not acceptable from any standpoint, andis pure negligence. What if it had been an emergency andhis frantic neighbor wasbanging on his door for help.



    In response to the above... when and if I see some unidentified guys battering down my door, all dressed in black, wearing ski-masks, no visible identification--at two or three o:clock in the morning... I'd probably go to war also.

    One of these days, real soon, some LEO's will be handed a warrant (which is politically movitaved, or even falsified, or both) to serve on an individual/s, but they will be stopped by a richous use of force--some LEO's may even die.

    One of these daysthis is going to happen (and it did already), and then richousmen (with guns) will come out of the woodwork (by the hundreds, by the thousands) to put an end to this. Some day, somewhere Gov officials and LEO are going to step on a huge, huge landmine.

    It will be a day of reckoning that will wake up this nation.

    FYI: The Waco stand was put to the end when it happend, because armed men (militia types) were beginning to show up in the surrounding areas, and they started asking questions (which is not permitted in our society now). This was building and building all through the stand-off. The gov knew it would get ugly (like the citizens would rise), so they ended it.

    What gets me is that well educated men (FBI & Texas Rangers, and military snipers) did what they did without question in Waco. Like I say... if they get the orders to round up gun-owners, christians, jews, patriots--they will do it to preserve their paychecks and pensions (not all but the vast majority).

    The big question is when can we as citizens userichousdefensive force against our own LEO's and gov when they get out of control? When and how could this be comtemplated?

    What puzzles meis that these FLDS people didn't go to war with the state of Texas when over 400 of their children were taken on trumped-up accusations. To know these people is to know that they make all of uson this site look like wacko-liberals. I mean they are ultra, ultra beyondimagination conservative--and well armed.

    There are thousands of them beyond that ranch tract that was raided a few months ago. One word from their prophet leaked out from jail for them to go to war, and there would have been a blood-bath. I think they showed amazing restraint despite being completely screwed by the government and LEO's.

    This is a great example of LEO's blindly obeying politically motivated orders. The FLDS members are being targeted by the gov. A lot of this pressure to act upon the FLDS is coming out of the main LDS HQ in Salt Lake. And please don't think I'm a LDS hater--I'm an alumnus of BYU.

    ST




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    Wow. . . This is a hot button issue if I have seen one.

    Here is the problem as I see it.

    If you are violently bashing in my door, with an unknown intent, I will open fire. The idea that I have to see my attacker to judge his intent seems a rediculous one because the violent act of bashing in my door at 3 AM to me is enough of an indication of the intent of the person.

    Now, the interesting point is that the 2nd time they came back he didn't shoot anyone. . . could that be because he had a better understanding whom was at his door?

    These kinds of things make it hard to not go on a rant, and I am trying really hard...

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Takezo wrote:
    This guy was wrong for firing before identifying the threat. But he was definitely set up by a person with a criminal track-record seeking to have charges expunged..... and is now being railroaded by a police department & DA not willing to admit that one of their own was killed in a raid based on a criminal's say-so alone.

    In this example, the resident fired through a closed door, at something he couldn't even see or identify.That is not acceptable from any standpoint, andis pure negligence. What if it had been an emergency andhis frantic neighbor wasbanging on his door for help.



    In response to the above... when and if I see some unidentified guys battering down my door, all dressed in black, wearing ski-masks, no visible identification--at two or three o:clock in the morning... I'd probably go to war also.

    One of these days, real soon, some LEO's will be handed a warrant (which is politically movitaved, or even falsified, or both) to serve on an individual/s, but they will be stopped by a richous use of force--some LEO's may even die.

    One of these daysthis is going to happen (and it did already), and then richousmen (with guns) will come out of the woodwork (by the hundreds, by the thousands) to put an end to this. Some day, somewhere Gov officials and LEO are going to step on a huge, huge landmine.

    It will be a day of reckoning that will wake up this nation.

    FYI: The Waco stand was put to the end when it happend, because armed men (militia types) were beginning to show up in the surrounding areas, and they started asking questions (which is not permitted in our society now). This was building and building all through the stand-off. The gov knew it would get ugly (like the citizens would rise), so they ended it.

    What gets me is that well educated men (FBI & Texas Rangers, and military snipers) did what they did without question in Waco. Like I say... if they get the orders to round up gun-owners, christians, jews, patriots--they will do it to preserve their paychecks and pensions (not all but the vast majority).

    The big question is when can we as citizens userichousdefensive force against our own LEO's and gov when they get out of control? When and how could this be comtemplated?

    What puzzles meis that these FLDS people didn't go to war with the state of Texas when over 400 of their children were taken on trumped-up accusations. To know these people is to know that they make all of uson this site look like wacko-liberals. I mean they are ultra, ultra beyondimagination conservative--and well armed.

    There are thousands of them beyond that ranch tract that was raided a few months ago. One word from their prophet leaked out from jail for them to go to war, and there would have been a blood-bath. I think they showed amazing restraint despite being completely screwed by the government and LEO's.

    This is a great example of LEO's blindly obeying politically motivated orders. The FLDS members are being targeted by the gov. A lot of this pressure to act upon the FLDS is coming out of the main LDS HQ in Salt Lake. And please don't think I'm a LDS hater--I'm an alumnus of BYU.

    ST


    When you drop your ranting against McCain, you are capable of making some sense. However, 'righteous' is the word you are looking for, I believe. And the Texas Rangers did not kill the women and children at Waco, that was the fbi trigger happy thugs that burned them alive with incendiary "noise makers." The same fbi that brought Robert Hanson to the public vernacular. The same fbi that murdered a woman, her child and a dog at Ruby Ridge. The same fbi that routinely steals guns, laptops and anything else that isn't nailed down at the flaming *** building--oops, I mean "Hoover" building. Our Gestapo.
    The Texas Rangers were looking into charging these murderers, not helping them once again escape justice. They stood up and called it what it was: an execution of the innocents. Immunity let the murderous scum go free of prosecution, although civil action is still underway, I believe. The Posse Comitatous Act prohibits the military, excepting the Coast Guard, from any involvement in domestic law enforcement. No military snipers were involved at Waco--or Ruby Ridge, for that matter. Only the mindless assassins of the US Gestapo.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Davy Aguilera, the ATF agent that had prepared the affidavit, testified later on the trial that a neighbor heard machine-gun fire; but Aguilera failed to tell the magistrate that the same neighbor had previously reported the noise to the sheriff, who investigated the noise. The sheriff found Koresh had a lawful item called a hellfire device, which allows a semi-automatic firearm to fire at a rate approaching that of fully automatic firearms. The affidavit was approved by a U.S. magistrate and was used as a base for warrants

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    'righteous' good I stand corrected. I can make sense, but can't spell for a crap.

    And you're a nice guy, when you're not giving rusty-trombones to John Mccain that is. lol!

    The TX Rangers were at Waco, but they didnothing or could do nothing.

    I know for sure they didn't harm anyone.

    I didn't know they wanted to charge people responsible.


    The ATF was "staging" a raid at Waco... and by that I mean it was "theater."

    Janet "the baby burner" Reno was scheduled to be on Larry King that evening.

    She was planning on showing video of confiscated guns---oh, but the people fought back. And things didn't go as planned.

    So thescript was re-written rather hasitly.

    It is interesting to see that only a few months later the Waco TV movie was released.

    Los Angeles Times
    Monday, September 6, 1999


    Television:
    Waco and the Perils of Instant History;

    By: HOWARD ROSENBERG

    It's our companion, it's our teacher, it's our everything. --Roseanne speaking about television Given recent headlines, what a movie the FBI's 1993 clash with David Koresh and his Branch Davidian cult would make. There was one?
    Oh, yes. "In the Line of Duty: Ambush in Waco" aired on NBC during a ratings sweeps, one of those critical-for-profit months in which the TV industry seeks to capture the attention of the multitudes by putting on and heavily promoting its most eye-catching programs.
    When, exactly, did "Ambush in Waco" run? On May 23, 1993, just 33 days--that's days, not weeks, fortnights or months--after the FBI's April 19 tear-gas assault on the Davidian compound into which Atty. Gen. Janet Reno last week authorized an outside inquiry. ..

    This is very very interesting... note how quickly this movie came out.

    I am a writer in the film industry and I can tell you that nothing--absolutely nothing get produced, written, sets built, actors hiredand shot intoa TV movie in just 33 days. It don't happen. It had to be in production as the FBI siege was taking place. It had to be in the works...

    Asuming this istrue, and lets run with it.... it would mean that someone very, very powerful behind the scenes was pushing for this propaganda piece to come out. Someone whom the tables had turned upon, and who wanted to turn them back.

    My choice for this person would be Bill Clinton seeking to preserve his presidency.He must have leaned uponhis Hollywood and network television friends extremely hard to get something out in a timely manner. If you saw the movie, it was a total hit piece on the Davidians. This is the only way it could be done.

    Producing a 2 hour TV movie in 33 days from scratch to airing--would be like launching a rescue mission to the moon. Actually they had less than 33 days. It woujld have had to been done and shot and editedfor scoring in about 25 to 27 and finished on day 28 or 30. Then it would have been forwarded to the network lawyers for vetting and changes. The changes would take another 2 round the clock work days to finish--leaving a few hours to view the final product. Here the network (and Bill) would give final approval, then it would be uplinked via sattelite a few hours before airing.

    It could have been done, but the costs and 24hr round the clock schedules would have been ball-busters. This had to be inproduction from week two or three of the FBI siege.

    Joe Goerbels couldn't have done a better job.

    I tried to run a search for the Producers and Executive Producers for this movie. A set of names will tell all.

    Can some of you out there do some research? Please!

    I've got a script to finish on time.

    ST









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