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VA State Police Response to Post Office Carry...

ed

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From: Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
Sent: 7/8/2008 12:58:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: RE: Post Office Carry?

Carrying a firearm on federal property is governed by federal law.
Please contact a federal authority for information or guidance in this matter.

Sincerely,

Donna K. Tate, Manager
Firearms Transaction Center
Virginia Department of State Police
Tel: (804) 674-2210
Fax: (804) 674-2791
Email Donna.Tate@vsp.virginia.gov
Website:http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm


From: Ed
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 11:01 PM
To: Tate, Donna K.
Subject: Post Office Carry?



With my CHP is it legal to both Open Carry and or Concealed Carry in my Local Post Office?


Your website says:


Where Unlawful to Carry


§18.2-308 (J.3.): No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.

§18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.

§18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason.

§18.2-283.1: Courthouse.

§18.2-308.1: School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.

§18.2-287.01: Carrying weapon in air carrier airport terminal.
 

ed

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I wonder if a person got arrested in a post office.. printed out the VA state police page and said.. here is where the va state police listed where I can't legally carry.. if he would get off.. I guess it depends on the judge
 
G

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I looked into this question myself some years ago when I was in Georgia. Post Offices are a NO, by Federal law. I have the cite somewhere, and will post it this evening.

IIRC, it's pretty unambiguously NO, however.

regards,

GR
 

Decoligny

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[align=left]DO NOT CARRY A FIREARM ON POST OFFICE PROPERTY[/align]
[align=left]Most people think they can because they misapply U.S. Code, Title 18, Part 1, Cahpter 44 to the Post Office. This sectiondeals with Firearms in Federal Facilities. Most people understand that the Post Office doesn't fall under thisdefinition of a Federal Facility. This is usually where they stop researching and think "I'm good to go in the P.O." This is where they get into major lifechanging trouble.[/align]
[align=left]Pretty much you are SCREWED if you are caught carrying on Postal Property unless you are LEO.[/align]

[align=left]Title 39 Code of Federal Regulations, Section 232.1 (l)
Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. [/align]

[align=left]"Official Purposes" means anyone who carries any of the above in an official capacity as legally required by their job, i.e. Police, FBI, ATF, CIA, BATFE, Postal Inspectors, etc.[/align]

[align=left]There are no exceptions listed.[/align]

[align=left]State Law does not supercede Federal Regulations.[/align]
 

ProShooter

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Decoligny wrote:



[align=left]Pretty much you are screwed if you are carrying on Postal Property unless you are LEO.[/align]


[align=left]Title 39 Code of Federal Regulations, Section 232.1 (l)
Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes. [/align]


[align=left]"Official Purposes" means anyone who carries any of the above in an official capacity as legally required by their job, i.e. Police, FBI, ATF, CIA, BATFE, Postal Inspectors, etc.[/align]


[align=left]There are no exceptions listed.[/align]


[align=left]State Law does not supercede Federal Regulations.[/align]

BUT, and that is a big BUT, the CFR is merely a set of guidelines for Fed agencies to follow. The CFR also says that noting contained in the CFR is designed to overide Federal Law, i.e. the US Code.

The US Code says that if you are on federal property for a legal purpose and are carrying a firearm legally, there is no violation of law (except courthouses, prisons, etc).
 

deepdiver

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I have read very intelligent legal discourses explaining very clearly why it is perfectly legal to at least conceal carry (if you are so licensed) into any USPS.

I have read very intelligent legal discourses explaining very clearly why it is absolutely illegal to carry any firearm (even if you are so licensed) into any USPS.

I have come to the conclusion that at this moment in my life I have not the time, energy, disposable wealth or inclination to be the test case. In all the years I have seen this matter discussed I have not yet seen anyone else volunteer to be the test case either.
 

Carpetbagger

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Here is a link to a court opinion regarding a case in which a postal worker was prosecuted under39 CFR 232.1 for having a gun in his car parked in a post office parking lot.

This was a motion to dismiss, arguing that the regulation is unconstitutional, and the defendant lost. According to the Volokh Conspiracy, the defendant was convicted (although this link does not indicate that).

http://volokh.com/files/dorosan.pdf
 

Citizen

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deepdiver wrote:
In all the years I have seen this matter discussed I have not yet seen anyone else volunteer to be the test case either.
I volunteer SCOTUS 7-029!
 
G

Gentleman Ranker

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Well. I was going to post what I had on the subject, but I see that it has been more than adequately covered.

One very small thing ...

In the older thread cited by Smurfologist above, Prometheus (Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 09:45 pm) makes mention of

The same sign posted at the enterence to every post office lists the "NO GUNS... except....."
Here is the USPS' list of their own posters. Poster 7 (conduct on postal property) and Poster 158 (possession of firearms) both prohibit firearms "except for official purposes".

IANAL, but I suspect that "official purposes" (as opposed to, say, "lawful purposes") would not include self-defense in general. My personal feelings are more-or-less those of deepdiver above.

regards,

GR
 

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
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I see the monthly discussion on the legality of Post Office carry has started. I really don't care one way or the other as in the last few years the only time I remember setting foot in a Post Office was to mail off my CWP application because I wanted to be sure that it had enough postage.

As deepdiver said I have seen some very convincing arguments both ways and have no idea which is correct. I am also in no hurry to be the test case. However I will pledge $5 to the defense fund of whoever volunteers to be the test case. PM me the details of where to send the money along with the details on your court date etc.
 

ilbob

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I wonder how this squares with the plain fact that they accept firearms for shipment at post offices. If you can't carry them there, how do they end up being shipped?
 

ed

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Thank you ALL for responding to my post and telling me the law(s) (I already KNEW USPS was off limits).

Personally, my POINT was this... Many people are brand new to hand guns and all the laws and rules that go with them. Regular law abiding citizen's buy a gun, then GOOGLE "Virginia concealed carry permit info" and the first GOOGLE hit is http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm.

They then go to that site and read all they can about the laws, rules, reciprocity, etc. If they click the link for http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm#WhereUnlawfultoCarry

They get taken to a list (part of my first post) that states where you can't carry in VA. So.. already KNOWING the law, I simply wrote into the State Police (since it was their web site) to ask them if it was legal. Maybe to see if they would say yes.. maybe to see if they would say no and add it to their website.. I was not sure what I was expecting, but I did it for my own curiosity and that of one of my firearm class students that asked me the exact same question.

A long time ago the VCDL had a letter posted on their website from the Chief of Police (or their legal counsel) saying that you can't have a firearm anywhere on the airport property, toll road, etc. or you will be arrested and charged. I knew that also to not be true and I wrote a letter stating so. They responded back with a "corrected" letter that is now posted on the VCDL letters website under MWAA. http://www.vcdl.org/letters/mwaa2008.pdf

Just last week I "corrected" a VA Commonwealth Attorney's Assistant on the CHP law regarding non air carrier airport carry and CHP drop off carry at K-12. He thanked me. (This was also the guy that was TRAINING LEO's on what was legal or not).

So... like many of you.. and also not like many of you.. I "rattle the bees nest" with a stick. Sometimes the bees fly away and return. Sometimes they fly away and stay away.. and yes.. sometimes I get stung. But I have no idea what will happen until I poke it with a stick.



Cheers to my fellow stick-pokers and those that watch the poking.

:cool:


edited for spelling.. QFT me if you want :p
 

Sheriff

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No guns on postal property is one of the stupidest laws out there nowadays.

You're out running errands one evening. You go by your office and check for messages that might have come in after you left earlier. You stop by Walmart and pick up a case of motor oil and a filter. You stop by Sears and pick up a battery charger that is on sale, $35 off regular price. You're now 3 blocks from the post office. So you stop by to pick up your mail at your P. O. Box.

What are you suppose to do? Stop the vehicle and lay your weapons on the edge of the property line in the grass? And stop to pick them up once again as you leave the property?

Anybody who wants to go on postal property with a gun and the evil intention of "going postal"couldn't care less if guns are prohibited on the property. Period.
 

ed

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ilbob wrote:
I wonder how this squares with the plain fact that they accept firearms for shipment at post offices. If you can't carry them there, how do they end up being shipped?

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b7

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]


A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

Red added by Ed
 

Bubba Ron

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You are wellinside the Post Office on Lynnhaven Pkwy and Viking Drive (in Virginia Beach) when you see the no guns sign - it's on the door going into the Passport office (at the farend of the service line) - that can be a sticky situation!!!!
 
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