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Thread: MICHIGAN OPEN CARRY INFO HERE

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    PLEASE DO NOT POST TO THIS TREAD:

    http://miopencarry.org/

    Our site is up. It's a work in progress so bear with us. We may be going with google as a payment method, paypal has too many hoops. We have our logo on all kinds of merchandise from cafe press. We still have lots of work to do in getting all the info we want up, but it's a start.

    Thanks to all the Board members for getting us this far. And thanks to all the others that are taking up the banner of freedom.

    Cheer,

    Brian Jeffs, President MOC, Inc.


    Just a reminder we have several items with the MOC logo for sale. Check it out, it's easy with cafe press.

    http://www.cafepress.com/miopencarry


    Welcome to the Michigan forum.Many of your questions about open carry will be answered in the information seen below.Also included is the information packet we send to local Police Departments. There arealso some links you might enjoy. Enjoy reading the many posts and experiences people have while exercising a basic human right, that of self defense. We welcome all questions and comments and ask only when you post something either state it as your opinion or include a citation of your “fact”. Also, feel free to copy and use/modify any of this information for yourindividual needs.

    To help us determine the number of members from Michigan I'm requesting any member that has not put a location under their screen nameto please do so. To see how many members there are from Michigan. Click on the word Michigan under a posters screen name, this will take you to a Michigan members listing. Thank You.


    The objectives of Michigan open carry are:



    • To educate and desensitize the public and members of the law enforcement community about the legality of the open carry of a handgun in public.
    • To exercise a natural right to self defense using the most efficient and common tool, a handgun.
    • To demonstrate to the public at large that gun owners are one of the most lawful segments of society and they have nothing to fear from the lawful carry of a firearm.
    • To protect our right to self-defense.
    Methods to accomplish these objectives are:

    • To distribute information via email, mail, telephone and in person to local law enforcement agencies.
    • To have periodic and informal gatherings in public places throughout the state while open carrying our handguns.
    • To contact the media, conduct interviews, relate pertinent information on the internet, write articles and letters to the editors all on the legality of open carry.
    • To participate in larger public events, festivals, car shows, etc., and staff a information booth about open carry.
    • To stay informed of and act against infringing legislation.
    • To always be an ambassador of good will in regards to the safe and lawful carry of a firearm.
    Dear Michigan Members:

    To help us determine the number of members from Michigan I'm requesting any member that has not put a location under there screen nameto please do so. This data will help us with press releases on how many members we have from Michigan as well as show the web owners that Michigan is in the fore-front of promoting open carry.


    If you are not comfortable in listing a specific area, you can list the closest large city (Detroit area), or county (Grand Traverse) or region (Eastern UP, MI, or Central Michigan.....), you get the idea. If this is still too specific than just put Michigan.

    To see how many members there are from Michigan. Click on the word Michigan under a posters screen name, this will take you to a Michigan members listing.


    WHAT WE HAND OUT TO PEOPLE ABOUT OPEN CARRY

    You can download this info in a word document from these two links. Thanks to nikon1123 for hosting the links.

    Info pamphlet:
    http://people.emich.edu/nburden/info.doc

    Letter to LEOs:
    http://people.emich.edu/nburden/LEOs.doc

    Info packet in brochure form here:

    http://home.comcast.net/~gosirr/Brochure10-29-08.doc w/o flags

    http://home.comcast.net/~gosirr/Brochure10-29-08a.doc w/flags


    Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.
    MCRGO v. Ferndale: The Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

    4) Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm.

    ADVISORY NOTE: Though this section on disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

    BRANDISHING Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002: …In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions…..the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions…the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner." Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code. It is my opinion, therefore, that…by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.

    5) A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. It is your option to provide ID/CPL.

    ADVISORY NOTE: Each situation is different. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful questions and requests. Ask the officer if the reason you are being detained is for the legal open carry of a firearm. After giving your name and address, ask if you are free to go, ask if you are being detained. If they continue to ask questions about ID and why you are carrying a gun, repeat the question, am I free to go? Am I being detained? If the situation escalates ask for a supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

    6) An AG opinion, the
    MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc.

    Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”

    Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas
    Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441

    “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that
    MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

    ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.

    FOR MORE INFO SEE www
    .miopencarry.org
    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research on the subject of open carry in Michigan. You are responsible in determining the accuracy of any information listed above. If you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

    DEADLY FORCE IN MICHIGAN

    The “CASTLE DOCTRINE” package of bills was signed into law on July 20, 2006. The law became effective on October 1, 2006.

    This law removes the duty to retreat from a violent attack. Individuals in Michigan, as in most states, have always had the right to stand their ground and defend themselves with no duty to retreat when attacked inside the four walls of their home. However, if attacked outside the four walls of their home, even if on their own property (such as the backyard, detached garage, or a pole building), individuals in Michigan were required to retreat from a violent attack if able to do so safely. As of October 1, 2006, there is no longer a “duty to retreat” from a violent attack as long as the individual is in a place where they have a legal right to be and as long as they are not engaged in illegal activity.


    The “Use of Deadly Force” continuum still applies. The escalating degrees of force still apply to all situations and the “Reasonable Man” standard is still used to evaluate an individual’s actions in a given circumstance. This means that the following three valid reasons to use deadly force still apply to all situations:

    1)Fear of Death.

    2) Fear of Serious Bodily Injury.


    [/b]
    3)Fear of Forcible Sexual Penetration.
    [/b]

    [/b]In addition to these three reasons for the use of deadly force, the following three conditions must exist in order for the use of deadly force to be justifiable:

    1. Imminent - One of the three above listed reasons for the use of deadly force must be about to happen; it cannot be something that will happen tomorrow or in a few weeks.

    2. Intent - The attacker has to have demonstrated some sort of intent. This can be verbal or non-verbal. The display of a weapon, verbal threats, or aggressive advances after being told to stay away are all indications of intent.

    3. Ability – The attacker has to have the ability to carry through with their intended attack. If someone says they are going to shoot you, but have no firearm, then they do not have the ability to shoot you at that moment.


    You still must act reasonably and apply the above principles of the use of deadly force.
    Here is what this law does change. This law removes the duty to retreat anywhere that an individual has a legal right to be provided that they are not engaged in illegal activity. If a person acts with reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, then the prosecuting attorney must prove that the person acted unlawfully in order to take the case to trial. This is a change from current procedure where a person who acts in self-defense must prove that they acted lawfully after being charged and possibly taken to court. In addition, if a person cannot be charged and convicted criminally, the new law provides that they cannot be prosecuted civilly. If for some reason a civil case is allowed to proceed, the person who used justifiable self-defense shall be awarded court and attorney’s fees.

    This all means that you must still act in a reasonable manner. Your firearm should still be your “tool of last resort” for self-defense. The emotional trauma and aftermath of shooting another human being will be absolutely devastating. It should be avoided if at all possible. This law mitigates the aftermath so that a decision made under the duress of defending oneself against a criminal does not destroy your life criminally or financially.

    You are encouraged to read these laws for yourself and evaluate them. For professional legal advice, you should consult a lawyer familiar with firearms law and the use of deadly force in Michigan. The new laws are 2006 PA 309 and 2006 PA 313.
    Above modified From:
    http://www.southsidesportsmanclub.com/stand-your-ground.html

    SELF-DEFENSE ACT (EXCERPT)
    Act 309 of 2006
    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
    Sec. 2.
    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:

    (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

    (2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual. 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006.

    WHAT WE SEND TO LEODEPARTMENTS:

    Dear Chief or Sheriff:

    Attached is information on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. The open carry of a handgun has increased in Michigan in the last year as more and more citizens are becoming aware of its legality. It is our hope that this information is helpful to you and that you will take the time to review the information and inform your officers on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. We also hope that you work with your 911 dispatchers in regards to asking some simple question when they receive a call of a “person with a gun”. If you have questions please talk with your prosecuting attorney or you can contact me via email or phone for more information. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard and appreciate the difficult job you all do.

    Sincerely,


    PURPOSE: To provide guidance in calls for services that involves a person who is openly carrying a pistol in a holster.

    As you may know any law abiding citizen of the State of Michigan who can legally possess a firearm may openly carry (in a holster) said firearm in all places not explicitly exempt by law without a CPL (1). Those that do not have a CPL when transporting their firearms must do so as prescribe by law. No local ordinance concerning firearm possession is enforceable due to Michigan’s preemption law (2).Brandishing and disturbing the peace are not an offense while lawfully openly carrying a firearm (3). Attorney General Opinion 7101, 2/02 states...by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public.”]In regards to disorderly conduct [size=due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry.]Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.A person openly carrying a firearm on foot in a legal manner when approached by a police officer and questioned where the only reason for the questioning is because of the openly carried firearm need not give that officer their name and address. No license or ID is required to openly carry a firearm. Officers should not editorialize against open carry by private citizens in any way shape or form, or in any way suggest that a person should conceal their firearm. Suggestions and editorializing against lawful open carry may be interpreted as “commands” by civilians who are lawfully open carrying and may subject officers to complaints filed against them, as well as possible legal action against themselves and the department.Recently it has been opined by the AG opinion, the
    MSP and Senator Prusi that persons with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. (4).

    It is suggested that Law enforcement supervisors inform their staff in regards to the legality of openly carrying a handgun in Michigan. It is also suggested that an officer protocol be developed in dealing with such a call. It also would be beneficial to inform your dispatchers and your county 911 department in developing a protocol on receiving a “man with a gun” call. An example of some questions to ask a person calling 911 about a person openly carrying is included.

    It is our hope that by informing you and all law enforcement personnel throughout the state about the legality of open carry that we can avoid any civil or criminal actions that might otherwise occur. If you have questions or concerns please contact your prosecuting attorney. We thank you for your time and consideration in this regard, and as law abiding citizens we appreciate the demanding and dangerous work you all do.

    Footnotes:

    1) Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    c) A court.
    d) A theatre.
    e) A sports arena.
    f) A day care center.
    g) A hospital.
    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection
    (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (2) MSPLegal Update Newsletters: April 2007 and June 2008
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf
    Did You Know: It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol.

    Preemption: In MCRGO v. Ferndale, the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession. Therefore, officers should check with their prosecutors before enforcing an ordinance that imposes a general ban on openly carrying a pistol.

    THE MICHIGAN APPEAL COURT CONCLUDED:
    April 29, 20006 v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to
    MCL28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that theFerndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    (3) Act 328 of 1931
    750.234e Brandishing firearm in public; applicability; violation as misdemeanor.
    Sec. 234e.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.
    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
    (b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
    (c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
    (d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.
    History: Add. 1990, Act 321,
    Eff. Mar. 28, 1991

    Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002In part:

    … Section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code does not define the crime of brandishing a firearm in public. The Michigan Criminal Jury Instructions, published by the Committee on Standard Criminal Jury Instructions, does not include a recommended jury instruction on brandishing a firearm. Research discloses that while the term "brandishing" appears in reported Michigan cases,2 none of the cases define the term.

    In the absence of any reported Michigan appellate court decisions defining "brandishing," it is appropriate to rely upon dictionary definitions. People v Denio, 454 Mich 691, 699; 564 NW2d 13 (1997). According to The American Heritage Dictionary, SecondCollege Edition (1982), at p 204, the term brandishing is defined as: "1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. –n. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish." This definition comports with the meaning ascribed to this term by courts of other jurisdictions. For example, in United States v Moerman, 233 F3d 379, 380 (CA 6, 2000), the court recognized that in federal sentencing guidelines, "brandishing" a weapon is defined to mean "that the weapon was pointed or waved about, or displayed in a threatening manner."

    Applying these definitions to your question, it is clear that a reserve police officer, regardless whether he or she qualifies as a "peace officer," when carrying a handgun in a holster in plain view, is not waving or displaying the firearm in a threatening manner. Thus, such conduct does not constitute brandishing a firearm in violation of section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code.

    It is my opinion, therefore, …by carrying a handgun in a holster that is in plain view, does not violate section 234e of the Michigan Penal Code, which prohibits brandishing a firearm in public. JENNIFER M.
    GRANHOLM, Attorney General

    (4)Three opinions on this topic.An AG’s opinion, the Michigan State Police, and a State Senator’s.

    AG opinion No. 7097 FIREARMS LAWS OF MICHIGAN January 11, 2002: This conclusion is not affected by the provisions of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, 1931 PA 328,
    MCL 750.1 et seq. That statute prohibits certain persons from possessing firearms on certain types of premises as follows: Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    c) A court.
    d) A theatre.
    e) A sports arena.
    f) A day care center.
    g) A hospital.
    h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession
    of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    b) A peace officer.
    c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity. [Emphasis added.]

    By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol,… is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    MSP opinion: Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

    Senator
    Prusi’s opinion: My office received your inquiry regarding the legality of a licensed CPL holder to open carry a firearm in "Pistol Free Zones." On Friday we received a copy of your correspondence, as Senator Carl Levin's Office referred your letter to my office because your concerns mainly pertain to state issues. As such, I am happy to assist you in this matter.

    My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are licensed a CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that
    MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter….Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District"

    Example of a 911 Protocol for “Person with a gun call”

    911: This is 911 what is your emergency?

    Caller: Ah….not sure if this is an emergency but there’s some guy with a gun on his belt here in the Wal-Mart.

    911: Is the gun in a holster or is this person waving the gun around or threatening anyone? Is anyone injured? What is the man doing?

    Caller: Aaah…no one is hurt. Aaaah…the guy is just shopping. Pushing a cart looking at some frozen carrots I think. Aah he’s looking at carrots.

    911 : Does this man seem to be intoxicated or mentally impaired? Does he appear to be acting irrationally?

    Caller: No he doesn’t seem to be acting strange other than the gun. Can’t you send some officers here to check him out? Think of the children.

    911: Does the person appear to be 18 years old or older?

    Caller: I would say he’s about 35 years old, average build, dark short hair, and he has a short beard. He’s wearing khaki pants with a dark blue polo shirt.


    911: Sir, the open carry of a handgun is legal in Michigan by any lawful person 18 years old or older. Unless the person is waving it around in a threatening manner or is acting irrationally there is nothing we can legally do. Now if the person should threaten someone or become agitated let us know and we’ll send a car, but until then have a good night.

    If 911dispatchers had a protocol similar to this over simplified example for handling this type of call; that is just by asking a few short questions the adrenalin factor would be reduced and officer stress would be diminished. Each department can decide if a patrol car needs to be dispatched to investigate this kind of call, and if so, the officer would have more information on how to handle the encounter.

    Our suggestions when contacted by an LEO for lawful open carry.

    1. Be polite and ask the law enforcement officer (LEO) why he is detaining you. If the LEO response is for open carry, inform the LEO it is legal to open carry in Michigan
    , and ask if you are free to go.

    2. If the LEO states that you are not free to go, ask again if the only reason you are being detained is because of lawful open carry and repeat “officer am I free to go”.


    3. If the LEO continues to detain you and asks for an ID or a license to carry a concealed pistol (CPL), tell the LEO you are not required to have an ID or a CPL to open carry. By law if the stop is only for the legal open carry of a firearm, you do not have to give your name. It is your option to provide an ID/CPL if you desire. Providing an ID or CPL may expedite the stop and we recommend that you do so.

    4. If the officer wants to disarm you let him remove your firearm. Do not place your hands anywhere near the firearm. We recommend you cooperate with all lawful requests. Continue to repeat that open carry is legal and ask “officer am I free to go”.


    5. Do not argue with the LEO, do not say anything that will be used against you. Do not editorialize on the law.

    6. If the situation escalates ask for the LEO’s supervisor. Remember the officer can arrest you for anything, don’t resist the arrest. After an illegal arrest you may have legal options you can employ.

    7. Never consent to a search of your person or vehicle. State “I DO NOT consent to any search. The LEO may search you anyway don’t fight the search. Save any arguments for a court of law. Keep asking if you are free to go, and “Why am I being detained.”

    8. If you are arrested, ask for an attorney and remain silent until you have counsel.

    We recommend you carry a voice recorder to tape the interaction between yourself and the LEO. Taping a public conversation is legal in Michigan. The wiretap law refers to a third party taping a private conversation between two parties that are unaware that the conversation is being taped.

    Taping a conversation
    [/b]Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.539c: A private conversation legally cannot be overheard or recorded without the consent of all participants. Illegal eavesdropping can be punished as a felony carrying a jail term of up to two years and a fine of up to $2,000.

    In addition, any individual who divulges information he knows, or reasonably should know, was obtained through illegal eavesdropping is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for up to two years and a fine of up to $2,000. Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.539e. Civil liability for actual and punitive damages also are sanctioned. Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.539h.

    The eavesdropping statute has been interpreted by one court as applying only to situations in which a third party has intercepted a communication, an interpretation that makes it legal for a participant in a conversation to record that conversation without the permission of other parties. Sullivan v. Gray, 324 N.W.2d 58 (Mich. Ct. App. 1982).

    The state supreme court stated in a July 1999 ruling that a participant in a conversation "may not unilaterally nullify other participants' expectations of privacy by secretly broadcasting the conversation" and that the overriding inquiry should be whether the parties "intended and reasonably expected that the conversation was private." Therefore, it is likely that a recording party may not broadcast a recorded conversation without the consent of all parties. Dickerson v. Raphael, 601 N.W.2d 108 (Mich.1999).

    Under the Michigan statute, a parent may not vicariously consent to a recording for a minor child. Williams v. Williams, 603 N.W. 2d 114 (Mich. Ct. App. 1999).

    It is a felony to observe, photograph or eavesdrop on a person in a private place without the person's consent. Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.539d. A private place is a place where one may reasonably expect to be safe from intrusion or surveillance, but not a place where the public has access. Mich. Comp. Laws § 750.539a.

    Go info on your 4th amd. Rights. http://www.laaw.com/seizure_chart.htm

    A good article on LEO encounters.

    WHEN APPROACHED BY POLICE WHILE OPEN CARRYING.

    By John M. Collins, Esq.,
    General Counsel, Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, Shrewsbury, Massachusetts

    Because it is legal in most states to carry a handgun if properly licensed, a report that an individual possesses a handgun, without any additional information suggesting criminal activity, might not create reasonable suspicion that a crime is being or will be committed.1 Where simply carrying a handgun is not in itself illegal and does not constitute probable cause to arrest,2 it follows that carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish reasonable suspicion justifying a Terry stop. The same applies to persons in motor vehicles. An investigatory stop is only justified when the police have "a reasonable suspicion, based on specific, articulable facts and reasonable inferences there from," that the subject "had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a crime."3

    State laws vary regarding both open and concealed carrying of firearms, but courts are usually sensitive to officer and public safety concerns over the presence in public of firearms. Mere possession may not be sufficient to authorize police action, but in circumstances where the gun presents an imminent threat because of shots just fired, or likely to be fired, and thereby presents a "suggestion of threats of violence, acts of violence, impending criminal activity, or concern for public safety," a court is likely to find there was reasonable suspicion for a threshold inquiry.4

    Anonymous Tip

    In a 1990 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed that, through corroboration of its detail, an anonymous tip can be enough to give rise to the reasonable suspicion required for a stop.5 More recently though, the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person, even where descriptive detail regarding the subject has been corroborated. The Court declined to adopt the "firearms exception" to Terry's requirement of reasonable suspicion.6 Similarly, in another 2000 Supreme Court case, an anonymous tip with a physical description and location that a person had a gun was not enough for reasonable suspicion, absent anything else to arouse the officer's suspicion.7 In that case the Court ruled that it was irrelevant that the defendant fled when the officer got out of his car and ordered the defendant to approach him.8 The tipster need not deliver an ironclad case to the police to justify an investigatory stop; it suffices if a prudent law enforcement officer would reasonably conclude that the likelihood existed that criminal activities were afoot and that a particular suspect was probably engaged in them.9

    Clearly, not every report of a citizen is worthy of belief or sufficient to justify a response by an officer. A caller could, for example, intend merely to harass someone by making an anonymous call to police and claiming someone had a gun hidden in his or her vehicle or on his or her person.

    The ultimate issue on the report's usefulness is whether the contents (and other attendant circumstances) create a reasonable suspicion that a dangerous situation exists, creating authority to detain or frisk or both. It certainly helps if the report contains particular facts that do one or more of the following:

    • Create a suggestion of threats of violence in this situation
    • Are themselves acts of violence
    • Indicate impending criminal activity
    • Raise a reasonable concern for public safety

    Of course, in the many jurisdictions where carrying a concealed weapon is illegal, this analytical step may be obviated and inquiry will proceed to the next issue, the likely veracity of the information source. In the case of an anonymous tip, the question will be whether corroboration of detail goes beyond the mere description of a person already in public.

    Examples of Appropriate Police Actions

    Examples may be helpful here. Police officers would be acting reasonably in stopping and frisking an individual after receiving information on the street from a known bystander that the person was displaying a handgun on a street corner in a high crime area at 5:30 in the morning, or if it reasonably appears that a suspect is not only armed but also dangerous, as would be the case if the individual appeared to be reaching for his or her weapon. The possession of a firearm by a minor in many states may be viewed as presumptively illegal, and thus sufficient to justify an investigatory stop of the minor by the police, again provided the information source is sufficiently credible. A constitutionally reliable report of the sighting of someone carrying a sawed-off shotgun-especially in states where this is illegal-would likely justify an immediate investigatory stop. Loading a weapon in public, especially where there is no clearly lawful reason for doing so (to begin hunting or target shooting, for instance), and especially in a high crime area at night or during early morning hours, could provide the extra information some courts require in order to allow police officers to conduct an investigatory stop and frisk of a person reportedly in possession of a firearm.


    Enforcement Guidelines

    Where a police officer receives a report that a person is in possession of a firearm, but the weapon is not visible to the officer, the following options are available:

    • Engage in a voluntary contact and simply ask the person if he or she has a firearm.
    • If he or she confirms he or she is in possession of a gun, the officer may ask the person to voluntarily hand it over just while the interview takes place, or insist that they hand it over if there is a reasonable belief that the safety of the officer or public is in jeopardy, or that the person has used it in a crime or is about to do so.
    • If the person denies having a firearm or refuses to answer, and the officer does not otherwise have (legally sufficient) reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, the officer must allow the person to continue on his or her way.
    • If the person denies having a firearm or refuses to answer, but the officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person is armed and presents a danger to the officer or public, the officer may conduct a stop and frisk the person. If the officer finds a weapon, the officer may hold it while conducting the field inquiry. As long as the person is properly licensed, and no arrest takes place, the officer must return the gun at the conclusion of the interview.
    • If the officer has a warrant or has probable cause to arrest the person for a crime, the officer may conduct a thorough search (not merely a frisk) and take possession of any weapon.
    • Where the person appears to be a minor and therefore too young to have firearm (in most states), the police may have reason to believe that a crime is being committed (unlawful carrying of a firearm) and may therefore conduct a stop rather than a mere encounter.

    1 See, for example, Com. v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178, 552 N.E.2d 538 (1990), cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951, 111 S. Ct. 372, 112 L.Ed.2d 334 (1990).
    2 Id.
    3 See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (196 4 Com. v. Alvarado, 423 Mass. 277, 667 N.E.2d 856 (199 .
    5 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 110 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2. 301 (1990).
    6 Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000).
    7 Pennsylvania v. D.M., U.S. 120 S. Ct. 203, 146 L.Ed.2d 953 (2000).
    8 Id.
    9 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 1105 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2d 301 (1990); U.S. v.
    Diallo, 29 F.3d 23 (1st Cir. 1994); U.S. v. Taylor, 162 F.3d 12 (1st Cir. 199 .

    PREEMPTION LAW in part: In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    CAMPUS CARRY:
    The preemption law to which you're referring can be found in MCL 123.1102. That statute generally prohibits a local unit of government from regulating firearms. However, colleges and universities are not local units of government for the purposes of that statute; MCL 123.1101 defines "Local unit of government" as "a city, village, township, or county." Further, various statutesin Chapter 390 of the Michigan Compiled Laws grant state colleges and universities broad authority to enact ordinances (e.g., MCL 390.5 grants that power to the University of Michigan
    ). Therefore, it appears that a university can enact and enforce an ordinance prohibiting a CPL holder from carrying a pistol on campus beyond classrooms and dormitories (see MCL 28.425o - the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders).

    There are a number of non-statutory preemption theories used by the courts. It is possible that a court or the Attorney General may hold that state law does preempt a university ordinance. However, at this time we're not aware of an opinion holding that way.

    Finally, it's worth noting that there's a difference between an ordinance and a policy. A university policy does not carry the force of law, and likely only applies to students, faculty, and employees. If you are a university employee, you are bound by the policy (
    MCL 28.425n allows employers to prohibit employee CPL holders from carrying at work). Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd.
    East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441

    Quotes: In regards to the lawful open carry of a handgun and preemption:

    FerndalePD Lt. Bill Wilson said. "It's a little known law, They use it to test rookies. They'll ask: What do you do if you see someone with a six-shooter strapped to his waist. The answer better be nothing or the rookie needs remedial training."

    "If they are not brandishing it in a threatening way or going inside a bar, bank or school, which are some of the prohibitions, they are not breaking any law."

    After the litter pick up the PD did NOT receive any 911 calls:


    "I did expect people to call," Wilson said. "It's fairly common in other parts of the country but you don't see it around here. Part of the justification is you are telling everyone I have a gun and I will use it for protection. Right or wrong it makes sense." Daily Tribune article May, 10th, 2009

    Judge Ron W. Lowe, 35th District Judge (Wayne Co.), Preliminary Hearing, 11/7/08. "Everybody seems to be in agreement that open carry in Michigan is permitted.

    PD Chief John Benthall, City of Burton. "I have researched this every way I can and I cannot find any law against it." From the Flint Journal; 6/14/08

    City of Ypsilanti Assistant Attorney, Karl A. Barr: “I have reviewed the matter and you are correct that State Law preempts the City ordinance with regard to handguns.” (Email response July, 2008)

    Hastings Police Chief Jerry Sarver: ....acknowledged that Michigan law allows people to carry their handguns in a holster. "We're not going to interfere with them," Sarver said before the rally. ", DETROIT FREE PRESS July 25, 2008


    JOIN OUR TALK SHOW AND LISTEN TO PAST SHOW at these links. Call direct at 810-208-1854
    http://www.flinttalkradio.com/sas.htm

    To see past shows go here: http://micpl.com/

    Link to Mich. Supreme Court decisions. http://coa.courts.mi.gov/resources/opinions.htm

    IF YOU CAN ONLY WATCH ONE VIDEO THIS YEAR MAKE IT THIS ONE:
    http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-...e?cid=Examiner OR this link.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02514885833865
    Great Book on line STOPPING POWER: http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stop0584.pdf

    Attorney General summary of Michigan FOIA act.

    http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17337_18160-51242--,00.html
    FOIA letter generator for Michigan along with some information.
    http://www.rcfp.org/foialetter/index.php
    This is a form letter that you can use as a guide.
    http://prfamerica.org/images/pdfs/FOIL-Sample-Letter.pdf

    Attorneys that will take on cases regarding firearm laws.

    Steven Dulan Attorney, site: http://www.stevenwdulan.com/

    Jim Simmons: Law Offices of James T. Simmons, P.C. 45700 Village Boulevard Shelby Township, Michigan 48315-6093 (586) 566-1900 (586) 532-4110 fax jtsimmons@jtsimmons.com

    David Bieganowski[/b]. 400 E 8th St., Traverse City, phone (231) 947-6073.

    Melissa M. Pearce: 2276 Wixom Rd. Commerce Twp., MI 48382 (248) 467-1930 FAX (248) 684-0029mpearce@melissapearcelaw.com and the website is http://www.melissapearcelaw.com.


    John Freeman, Criminal Defense Attorney
    Liberty Center Suite 200--100 W. Big Beaver Road Troy, MI 48084
    866-720-3708 or 248-918-0790 Emergency 24/7: 313-330-2653 Troy, MI
    Pro-gun and NRA member. Free initialconsultation with the Law Office of John Freeman, call 866-720-3708 toll free, or send us an e-mail.
    Website: http://www.formerfedlawyer.com/

    Matthew G. Davis, 119 E. Kalamazoo St. Lansing, MI 48933 (517) 913-5107 Cell (517) 281-9374Foster5701@hotmail.com

    Keith S Watson,1017 East Kalamazoo Street Lansing, MI 48912
    (517)372-7000

    Dean Greenblat,PLC. Phone # 248 644 7520 Fax # 248 644 8760
    4190 Telegraph Road, Suite 3500
    Bloomfield Hills, MI 48302


    [font="Times New Roman"][font="times new roman"][size=3]Matthew C. Connolly: 409 E. 8th St. Traverse City, MI 49686 231-499-4339 connolly_law@hotmail.com


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  2. #2
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    That was awesome! Great Job!

  3. #3
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    So I have concluded as an Illinois resident I can only open carry in MI if I do not transport my firearm in a motor vehicle. As I would not be within any of the codified exemptions (If I tell the truth).

    MI has got to scrap those transport rules. Those regulations remind me of the NYC permits that allow transport to and from the range. Of course everybody involved in a self defense shooting was "on my way to the range".

    Speaking of scrapping laws, back to work on Illinois.

  4. #4
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    Don't forget that one from out of state must posess a license to carry from their home state in order to possess a firearm here, even for open carry.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Man, I was looking for open carry information for MI......and I found it. Thanks so much!!!
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  6. #6
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    Perfect!!! Thanks Brian. This will be abig helping handfor thenew members.

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    Awesome as always Brian. GREAT job!!!

  8. #8
    Regular Member steve jaye's Avatar
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    Love the post, exactly what new members needed! I have one suggestion though, when you talk about the MSP Legal Update news letter, we should use the most current edition ie

    MSP Legal Update Newsletter: June 16th 2008 NO 66: Did You Know: …It is not illegal under Michigan law to openly carry a pistol…...

    I have already PRINTED and but in the mail to NOVI,WEST BLOOMFIELD and WIXOM PD’s, also emailed them!
    "A man with a briefcase can steal millions more than any man with a gun"
    Don Henley

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    This was published by the Michigan Municipal League and is the Law Enforcement Action Forum Newsletter for April 2009. I like the title
    Open Carry: A potential nightmare?

    Read through both the PDF and the Power point slides. In the PDF some of the lines are taken from our brochure we handout. A few things I disagree with in it but overall it's good. Lot's of legal quotes and legal citations.
    Attachment: Open Carry 2009_04.pdf


    Open carry is more than open carry

    Brian G. Jeffs[/b]
    It’s true that open carry has many advantages: a faster draw, a larger caliber handgun and greater round capacity; sure it’s been shown to deter crime, and it is immensely more comfortable in warm weather, but it is much more than that.

    Open carry brings gun ownership out of the closet. It shows your friends and neighbors, your state and your country that you are not afraid of taking on the responsibility of protecting your self and the ones you love from evil. Open carry is a visible expression of our natural right to self preservation. Open carry makes a statement that we are not afraid to stand up to the “politically correct” ideology that has created a nanny state, where the government is there to help us if we just do as they say, and a pox on anyone that disagrees.

    Open carry can lead us out of this stupor and deliver us once again to the days when a man could stand tall and be proud of his community, his state, and his country.

    When you open carry you are saying to the world, I’m my own man, I’m able and willing to defend myself, my family, and if need be my community, my state, and my country. It also states that I’m willing to stand up and speak truth to authority. It’s shameful that we as law abiding citizens must stand up to authority, the very authority that we have empowered, when questioned about our lawful right to openly carry a firearm. But stand up we must. The open carry of a firearm speaks volumes and it’s says much more than just open carry.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  10. #10
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    cupcake wrote:
    Don't forget that one from out of state must posess a license to carry from their home state in order to possess a firearm here, even for open carry.
    I have been trying to figure this out. Michigan recognizes the concealed carry permits of other states, but reading the law I cannot find any exemption from the registration and safety inspection for out of state permit holders. (despite the fact that to be eligible to have a gun registered or inspected you must be a resident)

    I know it would be contradictory, but inconsistent laws never stopped activist judges and police from using them to enforce their will.

  11. #11
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Attached is a letter from PaulGarfield the Michigan Representative for GOA relating his support of OCDO and the open carry of a firearm.



    GOA letter to OCDO.pdf

    Attached Image (viewed 143 times):


    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  12. #12
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    Venator wrote:
    If you have a conceal carry license from your home state you don't have to get an inspection or registration from Michigan.
    I figured this was true, but I can't find the cite that lists an exemption from inspection or registration. I visit Michigan often and I like to be able to quote laws when confronted.

  13. #13
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    I wanted to find the exemptions for you, but I have to admit: I'm at a loss. Not where I thought it would be. Anybody else smarter than me?

  14. #14
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    cupcake wrote:
    I wanted to find the exemptions for you, but I have to admit: I'm at a loss. Not where I thought it would be. Anybody else smarter than me?
    Well at least you make me feel better. I thought I was missing something obvious.

  15. #15
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    asforme wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    If you have a conceal carry license from your home state you don't have to get an inspection or registration from Michigan.
    I figured this was true, but I can't find the cite that lists an exemption from inspection or registration. I visit Michigan often and I like to be able to quote laws when confronted.
    Asforme, if you have a valid carry permit/license from your home state of Va, then you are good to go.

    750.231a Exceptions to § 750.227(2); definitions.



    Sec. 231a.

    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.



    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.


    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.227 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 206, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 8, Eff. July 1, 1986
    Constitutionality: The double jeopardy protection against multiple punishment for the same offense is a restriction on a court's ability to impose punishment in excess of that intended by the Legislature, not a limit on the Legislature's power to define crime and fix punishment. People v. Sturgis, 427 Mich. 392, 397 N.W.2d 783 (1986).


    Oops!!! Edit to add links:750.227 and750.231a





  16. #16
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    SpringerXDacp

    Your exemption is to 750.227 about carrying concealed weapons. I was looking for exemptions to:

    750.228 Failure to have pistol inspected; applicability; penalty.
    Sec. 228.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person who fails to have his or her pistol inspected as required under section 9 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, being section 28.429 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who obtained a pistol in violation of section 9 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927, before the effective date of the 1990 amendatory act that added this subsection, who has not been convicted of that violation, and who has his or her pistol inspected as required under section 9 of Act No. 372 of the Public Acts of 1927 within 90 days after the effective date of the 1990 amendatory act that added this subsection.
    Fortunately I found it.

    750.231b Sale and safety inspection; persons exempt.
    Sec. 231b.
    Sections 223 and 228 do not apply to a duly authorized police or correctional agency of the United States or of the state or any subdivision thereof, nor to the army, air force, navy or marine corps of the United States, nor to organizations authorized by law to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state, nor to the national guard, armed forces reserves or other duly authorized military organizations, nor to a member of such agencies or organizations for weapons used by him for the purposes of such agencies or organizations, nor to a person holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his person issued by another state, nor to the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.
    Origionally I was just looking at subsection 2 of Sec. 228 and not seeing anything about CHP holders out of state, then I found 231b.

  17. #17
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    Very good, I knew it wouldn't be hard to find someone smarter than me.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Corporate policies on Open Carry.


    MOC is compiling coporate poilicies on firearms. These businesses allow OC or CC and follow state laws in regards to firearms. MOC works hard on getting stores to allow the lawful carry of firearms for personal defense and follow state law in that regard.

    If you have other policies please PM me details and I will update them.
    Corporate policies on Open Carry.

    BOB EVANS
    From:Garrett_Hajes@bobevans.com
    Bob Evans - Reference # 536155

    We certainly appreciate you taking the time to e-mail regarding our Bob Evans Restaurants.

    Bob Evans follows all local, state, and federal laws pertaining to firearms. Please contact your local Bob Evans restaurants for the specific regulations.

    Again, Mr. Spice, we appreciate your comments. We value your patronage and appreciate your interest in Bob Evans Farms Inc.

    Barnes & Noble
    Original Message From: "Mary Ausman" <MJAusman@bn.com>
    To: XXXXXXXXXXX
    Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:42 PM
    Subject: Barnes & Noble

    Thank you for your email.

    While we are unable to discuss customer situations with an uninvolved third part, to answer your question, Barnes & Noble complies with the law and, except where prohibited by law, does not prohibit its customers from carrying handguns or other firearms in a Barnes & Noble store in accordance with the laws of the state in which a store is located.
    Sincerely, Mary Ausman
    Supervisor, Customer Retention
    Barnes & Noble, Inc. 122 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10011
    tel: (800) 422-7717 fax: (212)352.3660 http://www.barnesandnobleinc.com

    Walmart
    Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.
    Customer Service1-800-Wal-Mart
    (1-800-925-627 Questions regarding a Wal-Mart Store issue
    702 SW 8th Street
    Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
    Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-8611

    Email contact link: http://walmartstores.com/contactus/feedback.aspx
    Audio of Walmart Policy: Walmart_Firearm_Policy_Call.mp3

    Cabelas:
    Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.

    Thank you for the recent email. I am very sorry for the confusion that took place at our retail location.
    Our corporate office has taken action in regards to the below mentioned issue and here is what has been decided.
    We have made the decision to comply with state laws in regards to open carry. We do not ask customers to check concealed or open carry weapons where the state has laws governing this situation. Our signs refer to firearms that are being returned or sold to Cabela's.

    If you are still having problems please feel free to let us know

    Thanks again
    Becky
    Lead Associate
    Cabela's Retail Information
    1-800-905-2731
    retail.contactgroup<AT>cabelas.com

    Toys-R-US

    Dear Mr. Ross:

    Thank you for contacting Toys R Us regarding the recent tragedy in our store. Naturally, we want our guest's to be safe and feel confident while they are shopping. We adhere to the state law of whatever state a particular store is located in since the governing laws regarding gun control vary across the country. At this time I have not been notified that this will change though I can not guarantee that it won't in the future. I invite you to submit your concerns to our corporate head office for further attention.

    Toys R Us
    Attn: Gerald Storch (CEO)
    1 Geoffrey Way
    Wayne, NJ 07470

    If you have any further questions or concerns please email us or contact our customer service line at 1-800-869-7787.

    Sincerely,
    Beverly McCann
    Toys R Us Corporate Guest Relations Team

    LOWE'S
    Dear XXXX XXXX:

    Thank you for giving Lowe's the opportunity to respond to your concerns regarding our policy on firearms in our stores.

    Lowe's currently does, and will continue to abide by federal, state and local laws regarding firearms, and we do not prohibit customers from carrying firearms into our stores.

    Our first and foremost concern is for the safety of our customers, however; we take all comments and concerns from our customers seriously. We are considerate of all customers, and will remain neutral regarding the right to carry firearms. We will respect federal, state and local laws regarding this.

    If Lowe's can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call 1-866-284-8989 or email execustservice@lowes.com. You may also contact us by mailing your correspondence to P.O. Box 1111, Mail Code CON8, North Wilkesboro, North Carolina 28659.
    Thank you,
    Julie Holloway
    Lowe's Executive Customer Service

    BEST BUY's POLICY

    from Customer Contact <CustomerContact@bestbuy.com>
    to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    date Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:31 PM
    subject Best Buy Gun policy - XXXXXXXX
    mailed-by bestbuy.com

    Best Buy strives to comply with all applicable law and statues. Best Buy also strives to provide a safe and comfortable shopping environment for all our customers. Best Buy does not ban guns at our retail locations. As a general rule, Best Buy does not post “no guns allowed” signs in our stores and we are not aware of any individual stores that might have posted such a sign.

    Great Lakes Crossings Mall Auburn Hills:

    Mr. Knarre, regional VP at Taubman (owner/manager of Great Lakes Crossing Mall) called yesterday (4/17/2009)to inform me of his followup.OC is permitted in GLC. My email to him recapping the phone call:

    To:xxx@taubman.com>
    Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009
    Subject: Re: Taubman Policy--Lawful Firearms Carry in Michigan Malls

    Mr. Knarre,

    Thank you for yourfollowup call to me this afternooninforming me ofdiscussions with your legal staff, GLC security, and Auburn Hills police and conclusions on the below matters. The following are the key points as I understand them:

    --The GLC security director (Jim)stateshe did not issue a ban on me carrying a visible firearm in GLC. My belief aboutsuch a ban,based onwhat theAuburn Hills police were saying to me thatGLC securitywas saying to them, is a misunderstanding. No such ban was issued, so none needs to be rescinded.

    --Lawful carry of concealed or visible firearms is permittedat GLC.

    --GLC security has discretion on how to handle guest complaints, if they arise.

    --This subjecthas been discussed with the Auburn Hills police officers who are regularly atthe mall.


    Home Depot.

    Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.
    http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/law...s/homedepo.pdf

    Customer care number. 1-800-430-3376
    Contact link: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...atalogId=10053

    Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:13:57 -0400 (EDT)
    From: "HD Consumer Affairs" <hdconsumeraffairs@homedepot.com>
    To: warchild44spcl@yahoo.com
    Subject: Re: Other Website Questions

    Dear Jerry,
    The Home Depot Customer Care is in receipt of your email. We appreciate you taking the time to email us. Our general policy is not to ban customers from carrying firearms on the Home Depot property in those states having a concealed firearm law, provided they are carrying the firearm in accordance with the applicable laws.
    If the firearm is not concealed in accordance with the carrying permit (typically that means concealed and cannot be seen by members of the public), it is up to the manager based on personal comfort level to approach the individual directly and request them to leave the premises or to contact local law enforcement for purposes of having the individual removed. Thank you for contacting us.

    Sincerely,
    Ricky
    Customer Care

    Attached Image (viewed 1 time):





    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran
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    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    However, non-residents are subject to the Michigan law while carrying a pistol in Michigan, including those restricting where pistols may be carried, the implied consent provision, disclosure to a peace officer when stopped, and carrying while under the influence. A non-resident should acquaint himself or herself with the Michigan law before carrying a concealed pistol in Michigan

    28.425k Acceptance of license as implied consent to submit to chemical analysis of breath, blood, or urine.
    Sec. 5k.

    (a) The individual may refuse to submit to the chemical analysis, but if he or she chooses to do so, all of the following apply:
    (ii) The refusal may result in his or her license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended or revoked.
    I believe this is what is referred to by implied consent, meaning that if you do not consent your permit is revoked. I don't want to be a test case, but I would like to see how Michigan would go about revoking a license from another state.

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Post imported post

    The MOC buttons are in. I have 100 to start. Order yours today. I plan on selling these for $2 ea. at get-togethers as a fund raiser. Profits at this time will go towards a projector for MOC presentations.


    [/b]
    [/b]I will sell them on-line with a minimum order of 5 for $10 and I’ll pay the shipping. Multiples of 5 are allowable, for example 10, 15, 20 at $2 each with free shipping. I’ll take cash, checks, and Money orders. Make them out to Brian Jeffs. PM me to order, I’ll need a name and a mailing address. I’ll send the buttons when I receive your payment.
    [/b]
    The buttons are 2.25” in diameter.


    Attached Image (viewed 26 times):





    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
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    Post imported post

    Can we add to the "methods" to have something to the effect of "Protect our personal protection rights through the prevention of infringing legislation"

  22. #22
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Furner wrote:
    Can we add to the "methods" to have something to the effect of "Protect our personal protection rights through the prevention of infringing legislation"
    You have a goal and method in one. How does this sound? Comments welcome

    Objective: Protect our right to self-defense

    Method: Staying informed of and acting against infringing legislation.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
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    Venator wrote:
    Furner wrote:
    Can we add to the "methods" to have something to the effect of "Protect our personal protection rights through the prevention of infringing legislation"
    You have a goal and method in one. How does this sound? Comments welcome

    Objective: Protect our right to self-defense

    Method: Staying informed of and acting against infringing legislation.
    I like it.

  24. #24
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    Post imported post

    The non-resident issuewas discussed at length somewhere else not too long ago.

    IANAL, but IIRC, the consensus eventally was this.

    1. You can't have a handgun in MI unless you have acarry permit from some other state. However, there is a bulletin at the MSP web site that says a NR cannot have a handgun in MI unless he has a carry permit from his home state. Based on what the law actually says, it appears the bulletin is not quite correct. Presumably, a NR with some kind of permit from some other statecould OC, but there may be other issues like the idiotic school zone prohibitions.

    2. You can't conceal carry unless you have a carry permit from your HOME state.





  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    ilbob wrote:
    The non-resident issuewas discussed at length somewhere else not too long ago.

    IANAL, but IIRC, the consensus eventally was this.

    1. You can't have a handgun in MI unless you have acarry permit from some other state. However, there is a bulletin at the MSP web site that says a NR cannot have a handgun in MI unless he has a carry permit from his home state. Based on what the law actually says, it appears the bulletin is not quite correct. Presumably, a NR with some kind of permit from some other statecould OC, but there may be other issues like the idiotic school zone prohibitions.

    2. You can't conceal carry unless you have a carry permit from your HOME state.




    This is the reason you can't have a handgun in Michigan if you don't have a CPL. The safety requirement is now outlawed and it will be interesting to see what happens in this regard.

    FROM MSP:


    Michigan law requires that a person obtain a License to Purchase a pistol (MCL 28.422) before possessing a pistol in this state. Once a person buys a pistol with a License to Purchase, it must be safety inspected (MCL 28.429). Only residents of Michigan are eligible for licenses and safety inspections. Because a non-resident cannot satisfy those requirements they cannot lawfully possess a pistol here (for any purpose).

    Exceptions to those requirements are found in MCL 28.432. One of those exceptions is for persons licensed by their state of residence to carry a concealed pistol.


    As for the home state issue, issue. See this. This recent law trumps older laws.

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)

    Act 328 of 1931 750.231a Exceptions to § 750.227(2); definitions.

    Sec. 231a. (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in non conformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (2) As used in this section:

    (a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following:

    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.

    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    (b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:

    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.

    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency for the purpose of having a safety inspection performed on the pistol as is required by section 9 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.429, or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.



    History: Add. 1964, Act 215, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 191, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1974, Act 55, Imd. Eff. Apr. 1, 1974 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 280, Imd. Eff. July 6, 1978 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 82, Imd. Eff. Mar. 26, 2002




    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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