I made it! Moved to AZ, ? about OC

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Well I escaped from Rhode Island to Free Arizona. I want to OC, but I'm a tad nervous about doing so. Not from any criminal elements, strictly from the legal aspects of it. Can I walk around town and OC? Are the cops going to harass me? We moved to Globe which is a very small town and my thinking is the more rural the town, the more accepting of OC, yet I haven't seen it once (although I've only been here a week). I want to take my dog for a walk. Is OC legal on city streets? I want to go to WalMart. There are no signs on the door, is it legal? It's a very foreign subject coming from communist Rhode Island.

On a different note, I am taking an AZ ccw class this sat. Surprisingly, Rhode Island's ccw is far superior (in terms ofrestrictions)to AZ, which to be honest, is very annoying. The rub is, they are near impossible to get in RI. A few of the rural towns will issue them (as they are mandated by law) rather than face a lawsuit, which is how I got mine. The majority of towns and the big cities couldn't care less what the law says and won't. The Attorney General "may" also issue but they are ridiculously restricted usually. Anyway, the only restriction in RI is carrying while intoxicated. The law actually states that the permit is allowed "everywhere within the state". So to now have to deal with some ccw restrictions in AZ of all places is pretty frustrating to me.

Back to the main topic though, I want to know more about OCing here. Am I going to catch hell from the cops or not?

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See my post here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum10/13249.htmlfor starting out.

Edit: Welcome to Arizona from another new guy (I've only been here since August).

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As long as you are within the law, and don't go into a building that says no weapons, you will get NO crap from cops, and little if any from any other people. In Arizona, you will see open carry from time to time, just depends on where you are for how often. But anywhere in Arizona is accepting of open carry. Dozens of cops have seen me carrying, not one has said a word to me besides one or 2 hellos.

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So assuming I walk out of my house, down the sidewalk over to the Safeway and back, I should have no problems? I don't have an AZDL yet, could that be a problem? Can I carry concealed on my RI or UT permits since technically I am a resident of AZ?

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GlobeTiger wrote:

So assuming I walk out of my house, down the sidewalk over to the Safeway and back, I should have no problems?  I don't have an AZDL yet, could that be a problem?  Can I carry concealed on my RI or UT permits since technically I am a resident of AZ?

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AZ residents must have a valid AZ CCW permit to carry concealed. No out of state CCWs are valid for residents of AZ for use while in the state. Open carry is okay for anyone from the 50 states.

You can open carry down the street to the Safeway and back provided that you do not pass within 1,000 feet of a school zone (the federal GFSZA only exempts you from the 1k foot rule if you have a valid CCW permit from the state in which the school is located.)

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Ok good to know, I'll hold off on ccw until I have AZ's. The school thing....ughhhh. So if I OC as I walk past the HS it is illegal. Even if school is not in session? I live less than 1000 ft from the HS, does that mean I can't OC in my backyard?

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GlobeTiger wrote:

Ok good to know, I'll hold off on ccw until I have AZ's.  The school thing....ughhhh.  So if I OC as I walk past the HS it is illegal.  Even if school is not in session?  I live less than 1000 ft from the HS, does that mean I can't OC in my backyard?

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Private property is exempted, of course.

I do not know if the GFSZA is in effect when school is out of session. This law doesn't seem widely known nor widely enforced, even in a "big" city like Tucson, so you might never have a problem in someplace Globe.

Just be careful and hope the CCW gets to you quickly.

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like_the_roman wrote:

GlobeTiger wrote:

Ok good to know, I'll hold off on ccw until I have AZ's. The school thing....ughhhh. So if I OC as I walk past the HS it is illegal. Even if school is not in session? I live less than 1000 ft from the HS, does that mean I can't OC in my backyard?

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Private property is exempted, of course.

I do not know if the GFSZA is in effect when school is out of session. This law doesn't seem widely known nor widely enforced, even in a "big" city like Tucson, so you might never have a problem in someplace Globe.

Just be careful and hope the CCW gets to you quickly.

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Yep, because ironic as it is, CCW makes it easier to OC. Go figure, oh and welcome to AZ. :celebrate

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Arizona needs to do something similar to what the Montana legislature did almost a decade ago and automatically "license" people to open carry when they turn 18, thereby fulfilling the GFSCA permit requirements. Either that or get the CCW permit age down to 18 or 19.

Text of the Montana law:

“45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure.

In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.”

I think the AZCDL needs to take this up during the next legislative session.

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Funny you should mention GFSZ's. I am currantly trying to get info from BATF in AZ to see if they are even enforcing it here. As far as i know (I'm still researching) no local agencies actually care about, enforce, or even refers the "violation" to them.

This is not legal advise (even after I get my answers at let you all know), but rather informed observations.

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AZkopper wrote:

Funny you should mention GFSZ's. I am currantly trying to get info from BATF in AZ to see if they are even enforcing it here. As far as i know (I'm still researching) no local agencies actually care about, enforce, or even refers the "violation" to them.

This is not legal advise (even after I get my answers at let you all know), but rather informed observations.

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I don't think it's enforced very often or even well known. Second Amendment Sports in Tucson is located right across from Ft. Lowell Elementary and I used to OC there often before I knew about the GFSZA and never had a problem.

I wouldn't ask the ATF about whether or not they enforce the GFSZA. You might give them some ideas.

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Edit: Inadvertent double post.

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My wild a** guess is that they use it as an add-on charge if you are caught commiting some other misdemeanor/felony that is actually worth arresting you for.

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The Federal Gun Free School Zones Act is unconstitutional and I believe it already was challenged in a federal court. Additionally, there is a notion of "states' rights" where a state reserves the right to set its own laws with regards to firearms. Additionally, local, county, and state police are unlikely to enforce federal laws of any kind and in many cases are not allowed to jurisdictionally. They have to turn the case over to the appropriate federal agency. A street cop cannot arrest you for not paying taxes, for instance, as the IRS has to do that. In a case where federal law and state law contradict, I personally would follow the state law as it is more relevant and more likely to be enforced. That is my opinion and not actual legal advice.

The federal law basically says you cannot posess a firearm within 1,000 feet of any school and exempts those who hold CCW permits. Not only is this unconstitutional when it comes to the Second Amendment right to "keep and bear arms" but it violates Arizona's Constitution as well as contradicts the school carry law here.

The Arizona Constitution without being verbatim says that the State shall not infringe on the right to bear arms. A federal law saying that someone cannot walk down a sidewalk or drive down a street that happens to be 1/4 mile from a school which they don't even know is there is clearly unconstitutional.

Arizona law also permits certain types of school carry. In a nutshell, an individual may bringa firearm onto a school campus if approved by the appropriate administrators and in a program approved by a school. Also, vehicle carry is allowed. A person is required upon entering school property in a vehicleto unload all firearms, reasonably secure them, and keep them out of sight. That means that yes you can have a gun on school property as long as it is left in the car, out of sight, unloaded, and the car is locked up. Arizona LEOs are well aware of this legality and it is taught in the CCW class. The federal law does not apply here as Arizona has its own separate laws. I mean if you want to be scared carrying a gun because of this unconstitutional law, that is your problem, but I am not letting it affect my rights because I know the cops don't even care about it and most don't even know its existance.

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The FGFSZA may be unconstitutional, but try telling the Congress that. They passed the first one in '91, it was overturned in April '95 by SCOTUS, and they passed another one in September '96. Clearly, the Constitution is no threat to our current form of government.

Edit: Here are the changes from the '91 to the '96 version:

http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

Those old enough to have a AZCCW permit do not have to worry about GFSZA. Since I can't get one for another year and a half, I'm just more careful about not speeding or driving stupidly and getting pulled over next to an elementary school.

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Like I said, since when do local or state police enforce federal laws? Many are not even allowed to as it is not their jurisdiction. When a cop arrests someone for some misdemeanor and a check comes out that they are an illegal alien, the cop can only book them on the misdemeanor charge but for the federal immigration violation, they have to turn the case over to the Border Patrol, ICE, or other relevant federal agency that handles such matters. If you are concerned about getting in trouble with BATF or the FBI for simply driving down the street with a handgun on you, you might have other issues to deal with. Unless you are breaking other laws, the police and definitely the feds have much more important things to do. In the VERY rare event you actually got charged with this federal law, they would have to prosecute you in a federal court and there is a very high chance it would be thrown out quickly. NRA or other pro-gun agencies would probably even "donate" a lawyer to you for such a ridiculous case like this. I have carried in these so-called "school zones" so many times and often right in front of police officers who don't even bat an eye. Only one time did I actually get an attitude from them but they even admitted they couldn't even do anything about it.

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Also, the "license" referred to is automatically issued in Arizona. As soon as you pass the NICS check, you are automatically authorized to posess the said gun in Arizona. No questions asked and no registration or waiting period required. Just don't remove the serial number. This is not Maryland.

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protector84 wrote:

Also, the "license" referred to is automatically issued in Arizona. As soon as you pass the NICS check, you are automatically authorized to posess the said gun in Arizona. No questions asked and no registration or waiting period required. Just don't remove the serial number. This is not Maryland.

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Can I get a source for that?

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http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03102.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

One of the ways that law works is that if there is no prohibition listed against something, then it is legal.

As to "license" Arizona has no requirement that anyone obtain a license to own or carry firearms so the "license" is indeed automatic. The statute refers to prohibited posessors as defined by state and federal law. Examples include felons and the mentally ill. There is no statute anywhere saying that anyone must do anything to lawfully possess a gun. Only prohibited posessors cannot obtain or keep firearms. Therefore, everyone else is automatically "licensed." Again, if something is not prohibited, it is legal. Vermont, for instance, does not require one obtain a CCW permit to carry concealed. Since it is not prohibited by statute, anyone there is automatically licensed to carry concealed unless other statutes apply. There is no paper license but the license in essence exists because it is not prohibited to begin with.

You also won't find any law requiring registration in Arizona or any type of waiting period except what is outlined in federal law. Some states actually require gun owners to register their guns with local, county, or state police. You won't find any law requiring that here in Arizona. Keep searching if you like. Reverse "registration" is used only in the sense that by submitting a form for the NICS check, the gun can be traced to the federally licensed dealer that sold it and then to you but you cannot be traced to the gun. TV and movies always talk about "registered" and "unregistered" guns but in a sense all guns here are unregistered. A police officer who stops me or who runs a check on me has no way of knowing how many firearms I own and what types. Only if a gun turns up in a crime, can that serial number be traced to the dealer who then will turn over the information to who it was sold to.

The link above should reference that it is prohibited by statute to deface or remove a gun's serial number. As to a waiting period, there is no statute mandating that. You can walk out with a handgun within minutes after purchasing it. The dealer will use the phone and do the background check directly to the NICS call center or state agency and if it comes back good, you are on your way with a new piece.

It may seem like I don't have a lot of "evidence" for what I say but I don't need evidence to prove that something does not exist. Again, if there is no law saying that a said act is illegal, then it is legal. So if you disagree, the burden of proof showing that you have to obtain a license, undergo waiting periods, registration, etc. is on you. I cannot find those laws anywhere. There is a reason in my post that you questioned I put the term "license" in quotations.

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protector84 wrote:

It may seem like I don't have a lot of "evidence" for what I say but I don't need evidence to prove that something does not exist. Again, if there is no law saying that a said act is illegal, then it is legal. So if you disagree, the burden of proof showing that you have to obtain a license, undergo waiting periods, registration, etc. is on you. I cannot find those laws anywhere. There is a reason in my post that you questioned I put the term "license" in quotations.

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I agree with you wholeheartedly in spirit, but that's not what the law says.

The problem with the GFSZA is this text:

"(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under
law to receive the license;

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Apparently, the GFSZA only allows the carry of weapons in school zones in States that require a license to carry, whether concealed or not. Anybody without a CCW permit is in violation of the law since there is no way for the State to 'verify' if they are 'qualified' or not.

The kind of licensing (or lack thereof) that you talked about doesn't qualify under the GFSZA as an exemption from the school zone rule, unfortunately. I wish it were different, but it's something the AZCDL should work on next session. The CCW age limit needs to be lowered to 18 or 19 to protect gun owners from the GFSZA.