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Thread: We don't need no steenking permission

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I sort of had a duct tape moment because of the comments about getting "advance permission" from the local restaurant and the local law enforcement agency concerning the multi-state meet-up here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...jump_to=215187.

    That is not the only place I have encountered the attitude that in order to be "safe" folks should contact the local law enforcement agency and see if they were "OK" with a bunch of folks who happen to be legally OC-ing getting together for a meal or some other reason. The same goes for suggestions that the place where folks are going to meet - usually a restaurant - ought to be contacted ahead of time to see if they are "OK" with a bunch of folks who are legally OC-ing getting together there for a meal.

    First, the places that are suggested are most often those where others have boldly gone before, and the attitude of the place is known to be tolerant if not outright friendly to OC-ers.

    Second, an attitude that suggests that we need to seek out a prior OK from the restaurant management places us in second class status, as I seriously doubt that if a bunch of plainclothes cops decided to go out to lunch together they would call up first and see if the place had any problems with a bunch of folks toting guns arriving for a meal. (I will NOT entertain any discussion of the "We are cops so you cannot complain about us" variety, thank you very much.)

    Third, if a place previously lnown to be tolerant or outright friendly to OC-ing suddenly has a change of heart because of the "large" number of OC-ers, they will also be aware of the loss of business for that day = and perhaps even consider future loss as well.

    I do not know all of you, but I presume you are all basically polite and kind folks who do not stiff the wait staff by not leaving a tip, and who do not regularly shoot up the place when you have had one too many rootbeer. I'm even willing to go out on the proverbial limb and guess that you are more likely that others to control your children if they accompany them - at least to the point that they do not jump on top of other diners' tables, snatch food off other people's plates, or go running around the dining areascreaming at the top of their lungs. As such, you are probably the kind of patrons that most restaurants want to have as guests.

    So, wrapping up my little rant - would someone please explain to me why there is all this paranoia about getting permission and prior approval to go out for a meal with some friends just because we happen to be legally OC-ing?

    Thank you, and we now return you to your normal viewing schedule.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    skidmark wrote:
    I sort of had a duct tape moment because of the comments about getting "advance permission" from the local restaurant and the local law enforcement agency concerning the multi-state meet-up here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...jump_to=215187.

    That is not the only place I have encountered the attitude that in order to be "safe" folks should contact the local law enforcement agency and see if they were "OK" with a bunch of folks who happen to be legally OC-ing getting together for a meal or some other reason. The same goes for suggestions that the place where folks are going to meet - usually a restaurant - ought to be contacted ahead of time to see if they are "OK" with a bunch of folks who are legally OC-ing getting together there for a meal.

    First, the places that are suggested are most often those where others have boldly gone before, and the attitude of the place is known to be tolerant if not outright friendly to OC-ers.

    Second, an attitude that suggests that we need to seek out a prior OK from the restaurant management places us in second class status, as I seriously doubt that if a bunch of plainclothes cops decided to go out to lunch together they would call up first and see if the place had any problems with a bunch of folks toting guns arriving for a meal. (I will NOT entertain any discussion of the "We are cops so you cannot complain about us" variety, thank you very much.)

    Third, if a place previously lnown to be tolerant or outright friendly to OC-ing suddenly has a change of heart because of the "large" number of OC-ers, they will also be aware of the loss of business for that day = and perhaps even consider future loss as well.

    I do not know all of you, but I presume you are all basically polite and kind folks who do not stiff the wait staff by not leaving a tip, and who do not regularly shoot up the place when you have had one too many rootbeer. I'm even willing to go out on the proverbial limb and guess that you are more likely that others to control your children if they accompany them - at least to the point that they do not jump on top of other diners' tables, snatch food off other people's plates, or go running around the dining areascreaming at the top of their lungs. As such, you are probably the kind of patrons that most restaurants want to have as guests.

    So, wrapping up my little rant - would someone please explain to me why there is all this paranoia about getting permission and prior approval to go out for a meal with some friends just because we happen to be legally OC-ing?

    Thank you, and we now return you to your normal viewing schedule.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Word.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    +1 I never ask permission! Always do check out an establishment before inviting a group.

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  4. #4
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    I tend to be a low-key, non-confrontational guy ... by default, anyway. I'll normally go around a problem rather than through it. But I agree that asking permission in advance is counterproductive.

    1. There's the old bureaucratic adage, "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission." In some situations you won't get either, of course, but in general it's a good rule.

    2. Most people don't like what's unfamiliar, but they'll usually go along with the status quo rather than create an issue. If you ask permission, you're asking them to accept an unfamiliar situation with unknown consequences. Even people who wouldn't have a problem if you were already there will tend to say "no". If you're already there and not misbehaving, most people's inclinations will be to accept it.

    3. I would never ask any police officer or department for advance permission to do anything unless it was required by law (example: parade permit or something similar). The few times in my youth that I did ask (a fairly senior) Officer Friendly if something was lawful, I was given information that I knew at the time was false. I am more sympathetic to LE than some on this board, but for several reasons I don't consider them good sources of legal advice.

    4. Don't draw any conclusions from this being #4 rather than #1, but if you're not doing anything wrong (and OC is not anything wrong), why ask permission? One reason for OC is to educate the public that it's okay and OCers are not maddog loonies. If it's okay (it is) and we're not loony (we're not ... well, mostly ), why ask?

    Just my humble opinions.

    regards,

    GR

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    skidmark wrote:
    I sort of had a duct tape moment because of the comments about getting "advance permission" from the local restaurant and the local law enforcement agency concerning the multi-state meet-up here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...jump_to=215187.

    That is not the only place I have encountered the attitude that in order to be "safe" folks should contact the local law enforcement agency and see if they were "OK" with a bunch of folks who happen to be legally OC-ing getting together for a meal or some other reason. The same goes for suggestions that the place where folks are going to meet - usually a restaurant - ought to be contacted ahead of time to see if they are "OK" with a bunch of folks who are legally OC-ing getting together there for a meal.

    First, the places that are suggested are most often those where others have boldly gone before, and the attitude of the place is known to be tolerant if not outright friendly to OC-ers.

    Second, an attitude that suggests that we need to seek out a prior OK from the restaurant management places us in second class status, as I seriously doubt that if a bunch of plainclothes cops decided to go out to lunch together they would call up first and see if the place had any problems with a bunch of folks toting guns arriving for a meal. (I will NOT entertain any discussion of the "We are cops so you cannot complain about us" variety, thank you very much.)

    Third, if a place previously lnown to be tolerant or outright friendly to OC-ing suddenly has a change of heart because of the "large" number of OC-ers, they will also be aware of the loss of business for that day = and perhaps even consider future loss as well.

    I do not know all of you, but I presume you are all basically polite and kind folks who do not stiff the wait staff by not leaving a tip, and who do not regularly shoot up the place when you have had one too many rootbeer. I'm even willing to go out on the proverbial limb and guess that you are more likely that others to control your children if they accompany them - at least to the point that they do not jump on top of other diners' tables, snatch food off other people's plates, or go running around the dining areascreaming at the top of their lungs. As such, you are probably the kind of patrons that most restaurants want to have as guests.

    So, wrapping up my little rant - would someone please explain to me why there is all this paranoia about getting permission and prior approval to go out for a meal with some friends just because we happen to be legally OC-ing?

    Thank you, and we now return you to your normal viewing schedule.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    I think it's a matter of being polite and getting the law on your side FIRST instead of waiting for something to happen.

    I know people do not like to hear "you're just looking for trouble" but it seems to me that by going as a GROUP into any place that's not used to seeing large numbers of firearms, without at least giving warning before hand (which is not the same as asking permission), that's exactly what you're doing. Dickson City shouldn't have happened, but because it did I'd be even more wary of an OC dinner because now people are watching for us.

    I've got reservations about OC, so I am probably biased, but hear me out. If you go about your business alone, OC'ing, you are far less threatening than if you are in a group. That's a huge issue in the eyes of someone who is afraid or uncertain around an OC'er. In the eyes of someone like that, one person is something to avoid but a group is something to call the cops on. All the average person hears about guns is that they are used by gangs. You might look like the cleanest, neatest dressed, most polite "gang" out there, but you are armed and in a group and a person who has never met with that situation before may panic and make really stupid accusations about your motives.

    Second: In most areas, activism in groups is encouraged or required to have permission. What we are doing with OC is definitely activism, and OC groups doubly so. If you expected to go hand out flyers in a restaurant in a large group, or stand outside the public library waving signs, participate in a group march, or most other activist activities, wouldn't you call ahead to let people know you would be there? It's not a matter of being a second-class citizen, it's simply being polite to the people who will have to deal with you (and with anyone who wants to start fights with you).

    Finally, I'd feel really horrible taking advantage of the kindness of a restaurant or other gathering place by assuming that just because they tolerated me (or even if they openly supported me), they would also tolerate a large group of people like me. There is no guarantee that restaraunt owners will be agreeable to OC groups in their establishment no matter how friendly they are to a single man or a family. They may have plenty of reasons for this, too, including liability issues and not knowing whether one of their servers will flip out and call the cops. I'd gladly give up a dinner at my favorite restaurant while in an OC group if it meant that we avoided another Dickson City.

    If you don't feel like asking permission for a gathering, or feel like the expectation is wrong, then by all means continue without permission; I don't think it's wrong, just impolite and more likely to get you into confrontations that my instinct would be to avoid. I would simply feel far more comfortable knowing that the servers and staff were on our side, at the very least because servers could then quiet down patrons before anyone whipped out their cell phones. As great as OC is for spreading word of our cause, I think it's also important to make it look like we have someone other than ourselves on our side, and places openly hosting OC gatherings instead of being targets for them would be a good start.

    *prepares for argument*

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    Pegasus (11 July 2008 Friday 08:49) says:

    I think it's a matter of being polite and getting the law on your side FIRST instead of waiting for something to happen.
    I'm all in favor of polite -- especially when armed. Am I mistaken in assuming that the law (as opposed to, say, the local PD) is already on the side of OC?

    Second: In most areas, activism in groups is encouraged or required to have permission. What we are doing with OC is definitely activism, and OC groups doubly so.
    I take your point, but in this case, the activism is secondary to spending money and enjoying the hospitality that the business offers to the public. Businesses do, of course, have the right to make some rules about who accepts their hospitality ("no shirt, no shoes ..."), but why encourage them to do so if they haven't already seen the necessity? Picketing or leafleting is one thing, but being a paying customer is another.

    I disagree that asking permission for something that is not prohibited is necessarily impolite. This kind of activism can, of course, be done in an impolite way, but I didn't see anything suggested that would be impolite in and of itself.

    regards,

    GR




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    Pegasus (11 July 2008 Friday 08:49) says:

    I think it's a matter of being polite and getting the law on your side FIRST instead of waiting for something to happen.
    Gentleman Ranker wrote:
    I'm all in favor of polite -- especially when armed. Am I mistaken in assuming that the law (as opposed to, say, the local PD) is already on the side of OC?
    Bad choice of words there, I guess Yes, the law is on our side, but the authorities (cops, restaurant managers, etc) might not be. And while I would never go to the local PD for permission for anything (because as you said, they are sometimes not the best source for information, let alone permission), making friends with a restaurant manager is something else entirely.
    Second: In most areas, activism in groups is encouraged or required to have permission. What we are doing with OC is definitely activism, and OC groups doubly so.
    I take your point, but in this case, the activism is secondary to spending money and enjoying the hospitality that the business offers to the public. Businesses do, of course, have the right to make some rules about who accepts their hospitality ("no shirt, no shoes ..."), but why encourage them to do so if they haven't already seen the necessity? Picketing or leafleting is one thing, but being a paying customer is another.

    I disagree that asking permission for something that is not prohibited is necessarily impolite. This kind of activism can, of course, be done in an impolite way, but I didn't see anything suggested that would be impolite in and of itself.

    regards,

    GR


    Ah. You are correct in your observations that people will generally go with the status quo and that only if we ask are we likely to get a 'No'. And you're also right that being a paying customer does entitle you to a little better treatment than standing on the corner outside waving flyers and signs. And just like with people now primed and watching for OC'ers after Dickson City, businesses will probably not pay any attention until you start asking for permission. I don't -like- that, any more than I suspect you do, but I still feel like if you're going to carry openly, you ought to at least warn them that you're coming. Although you are, as I said, right about people only saying 'no' if we ask, logically if the business turns you away at the door or on the phone, it is likely that your unannounced presence would have caused them to think about putting up a sign anyway. And while an uneventful OC dinner might still leave them feeling uneasy or slightly better because nothing happened, a respectful phone conversation will likely leave them feeling like OC'ers are respectful and polite, and ease a lot of the tension. They can always change their policies later, if we just get the chance to change their minds.

    I have no problem carrying concealed into anywhere that doesn't expressly tell me 'no' beforehand, because what they can't see, they won't worry about. But OC is visible and attracts attention, and is therefore something I'd inform people of. Again, this is my opinion and I just feel that being polite and deferring to authority in a situation which could cause trouble is less likely to cause it in the long run, and more likely to establish the image of an OC'er as someone who is polite and cares about the feelings of those around him or her, which in turn would make it far easier to go in and sit down without needing permission, because the mindset that we were friendly and meant no harm would be well instilled.

    I am not saying that we need to give way in all situations, or that this important right should be one that we exercise only when others say it's ok. I understand that it is of great importance not to ask permission in many situations, so as to get people used to the idea that permission is not needed, and to enforce the image of of exercising our rights as a normal, everday occurance. However, in the case of a large OC gathering I think it's better for our image and for our relationships with local businesses that we show all the respect and goodwill we can, and cement a friendly image before we try to gather unannounced. It may be done in the most polite way possible when you walk in for an OC dinner, and you may be quiet and model customers, but as someone who advocates for prevention instead of fixing it afterward, getting forgiveness does not seem to me to be as good as getting permission, even if it is the easier. And on the side of not necessarily being impolite - it is not necessarily impolite to just get up from the table to go to the bathroom either, but most people with manners will excuse themselves to the others so as not to appear rude or bored... and I'm sure I could come up with other areas of life in which something may not be considered impolite, but is not considered the epitome of politeness, either.

    Apologies for the strange quotes - I can't seem to get the quote editing here to work for me.

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    skidmark wrote:
    I sort of had a duct tape moment because of the comments about getting "advance permission" from the local restaurant and the local law enforcement agency concerning the multi-state meet-up here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...jump_to=215187.

    That is not the only place I have encountered the attitude that in order to be "safe" folks should contact the local law enforcement agency and see if they were "OK" with a bunch of folks who happen to be legally OC-ing getting together for a meal or some other reason. The same goes for suggestions that the place where folks are going to meet - usually a restaurant - ought to be contacted ahead of time to see if they are "OK" with a bunch of folks who are legally OC-ing getting together there for a meal.

    First, the places that are suggested are most often those where others have boldly gone before, and the attitude of the place is known to be tolerant if not outright friendly to OC-ers.

    Second, an attitude that suggests that we need to seek out a prior OK from the restaurant management places us in second class status, as I seriously doubt that if a bunch of plainclothes cops decided to go out to lunch together they would call up first and see if the place had any problems with a bunch of folks toting guns arriving for a meal. (I will NOT entertain any discussion of the "We are cops so you cannot complain about us" variety, thank you very much.)

    Third, if a place previously lnown to be tolerant or outright friendly to OC-ing suddenly has a change of heart because of the "large" number of OC-ers, they will also be aware of the loss of business for that day = and perhaps even consider future loss as well.

    I do not know all of you, but I presume you are all basically polite and kind folks who do not stiff the wait staff by not leaving a tip, and who do not regularly shoot up the place when you have had one too many rootbeer. I'm even willing to go out on the proverbial limb and guess that you are more likely that others to control your children if they accompany them - at least to the point that they do not jump on top of other diners' tables, snatch food off other people's plates, or go running around the dining areascreaming at the top of their lungs. As such, you are probably the kind of patrons that most restaurants want to have as guests.

    So, wrapping up my little rant - would someone please explain to me why there is all this paranoia about getting permission and prior approval to go out for a meal with some friends just because we happen to be legally OC-ing?

    Thank you, and we now return you to your normal viewing schedule.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the software on this board is somehow translating my posts into Esperanto or something.

    Skidmark, could you please show me in my posts where I said we need to ask permission from or "see if it is 'OK'" with the local LEOs to have our event? Go back and read my posts. I simply suggested that it might be a courteous gesture to give them a "heads up" so they aren't wasting thier time or ours responding to "man with a gun" calls. Notification is not seeking permission! :quirky

    We not "going out with a few friends" for a bite to eat. This is a multi-state, planned activist event that, with luck, could have several dozen folks attending.

    The attitude that "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission" is not a way to win hearts and minds. It implies you already know what you are doing isn't right.

    On a final note, just to erase the (hopefully incorrect) image from my head, what is a "duct tape moment"?


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    I don't believe we need to "get permission" from law enforcement or business owners either before any group dinner just because we're open carrying.

    I feel what we DO need to do is respect the business owner exactly the same as we would with any group outing. As far asnotifying police, that would be optional, but STRICTLY for the purpose of defusing MWAG calls.

    "We would like to have a large group dinner at your restaurant for approximately # people. Can your restaurant accomodate our group?" If they ask for any details of the group or purpose, then you can let them know the purpose of the group dinner, with as much or as little information as you choose to provide.

    If you choose, notifythe local police ahead of time to let them know that there will be a large group of law-abiding citizens open carrying at that restaurant at that time. Explain that the ONLY purpose of notifying them is so that they won't dispatch officers away from their other more important duties just to investigavea peaceful, legal open carry dinner.

    I see this as similar to what repo men do when reposessing a car. they notify the police department AHEAD of time (or immediately after reposession) that they will be reposessing a specific car at a specific location, so that if they receive a call thatthe car was stolen, police will handle the call appropriately to inform the caller and not dispatch an officer to investigate.

    Restaurant: What kind of group is it?
    Caller: Hell's Angels.
    Restaurant: ..........um.....
    Caller: Just kidding. We're just Open Carry advocates.
    Restaurant: Oh. *whew* OK then. How many?

    ...I'm smart enough, I'm armed enough, and doggone it, people LIKE me!...
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    Redknightt () said:

    We not "going out with a few friends" for a bite to eat. This is a multi-state, planned activist event that, with luck, could have several dozen folks attending.
    Not Esperanto, but I think I had a senior moment there. For some reason it didn't register with me that this would be a several-dozen people event. IMHO a group that large going out to a restaurant would practically require prior arrangement with the restaurant management. Whether it would involve letting him know that the group would be armed ... I dunno. I can see it either way. Personally, I'd probably say something in advance.

    A prudent compromise (for the record, I don't regard "compromise" as necessarily a bad thing) for smaller groups might be to go to a place unarmed once or twice, be sure to tip well, and then try going armed. Not necessary, but I'd consider it.

    Again MHO, but I don't know that I'd say any more to the local PD than I had to the restaurant management. If management doesn't mind, I doubt there'd be an issue, and if they do mind, the PD may have little choice in the matter.

    Apologies to Pegasus if I came across as unnecessarily argumentative. I'll try to read more carefully in future.

    regards,

    GR

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    RedKnightt wrote:
    On a final note, just to erase the (hopefully incorrect) image from my head, what is a "duct tape moment"?

    A "duct tape moment" is when you need to wrap your head to keep it from exploding becauseyour head hurts so much after encounteringsome bit of foolishness. Preventive maintenance for the feeling so often expressed.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    PS - Here's a "duct tape moment" for you - do you call the local cops to give them a heads up that you will be taking your 4-year old and 20 guests to McDonalds for a birthday party because they might violate the local noise ordinance?

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    I can see both sides of this argument. No, we shouldn't have to "ask permission" to exercise a right as we go about our lives.

    On the other hand, the current reality is that guns attract attention. The important question is: what is the purpose of an OC dinner? Aside from fellowship, it is to demonstrate that law-abiding, armed citizens can get together in public peacefullyand without creating a scene. In other words, we are seeking education/desensitization of the public (guns = normal) and good PR for OCers. A herd of police showing up will reflect poorly on us, regardless of whether it ends well or poorly (Dickson City). In that case, I think it is entirely prudent "preparation of the battlefield" to notify the restaurant what to expect, so as to head off any misunderstanding. It's also good manners.

    If they have concerns (because they don't want a scene either), we don't have to saywe're ona political crusade, we're just "an informal shooting club," which is more-or-less true. As for notifying the local police, that might be a little excessive for these purposes.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    RedKnightt wrote:
    I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the software on this board is somehow translating my posts into Esperanto or something.

    Skidmark, could you please show me in my posts where I said we need to ask permission from or "see if it is 'OK'" with the local LEOs to have our event? Go back and read my posts. I simply suggested that it might be a courteous gesture to give them a "heads up" so they aren't wasting thier time or ours responding to "man with a gun" calls. Notification is not seeking permission! :quirky
    We seem to have an unresolvable difference of opinion on what exactly takes place when someone gives local law enforcement a "heads up" that they are going to do something that may or may not be considered controversial. BTW, it is you who seems to think OC-ing is controversial. Experience shows me - thus My thoughts and opinions on the matter - that when you give such a "heads up" the local law enforcement sees it as either an opportunity to lecture on why they would "prefer" you not do so, a challenge for them to do "something" about it, or a threat that you will retaliate legally if they so much as "interfere" with you.
    You, on the other hand, seem to believe giving a "heads up" will make the local law enforcement agency less inclined to respond to "Man with a gun" calls.
    My experience with previous OC outings in many parts of Virginia since the infamous Tony's Pizza/Manassas fiasco and the few screw-ups since thenis that cops in Virginia know about the legality of OC-ing.My experience over 30+ years being around law enforcement as a consumer and ancillary services provider is they are NEVER going to ignore a "Man with a gun" call - but they may now be willing to collect a bit more informaton from the caller as the responding officers are enroute. my experience is also what suggests that a "heads up" will be seen more as a challenge than anything else.
    stay safe.



    skidmark
    We not "going out with a few friends" for a bite to eat. This is a multi-state, planned activist event that, with luck, could have several dozen folksttending. The attitude that "It is easier to ask forgiveness than permission" is not a way to win hearts and minds. It implies you already know what you are doing isn't right.
    I do hope that we have at least several dozen folks attending. My only fear is that we have so many that the place is closed to the public because RH&B considers it easier to deal with us as a private party - thus we lose the education by example that most OC events I attend are striving for. Note that I have made two comments regarding this: 1) that we get reservations so that the restaurant knows to expect us and is not caught by surpise regarding staff needed or how much food to have on hand, and 2) that we "police" our own behavior - both regarding contact with others patronizing the restaurant and regarding how we deal with the wait staff as regards politeness and tipping.
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    Gentleman Ranker wrote:
    Redknightt () said:

    We not "going out with a few friends" for a bite to eat. This is a multi-state, planned activist event that, with luck, could have several dozen folks attending.
    Not Esperanto, but I think I had a senior moment there. For some reason it didn't register with me that this would be a several-dozen people event. IMHO a group that large going out to a restaurant would practically require prior arrangement with the restaurant management. Whether it would involve letting him know that the group would be armed ... I dunno. I can see it either way. Personally, I'd probably say something in advance.

    A prudent compromise (for the record, I don't regard "compromise" as necessarily a bad thing) for smaller groups might be to go to a place unarmed once or twice, be sure to tip well, and then try going armed. Not necessary, but I'd consider it.

    Again MHO, but I don't know that I'd say any more to the local PD than I had to the restaurant management. If management doesn't mind, I doubt there'd be an issue, and if they do mind, the PD may have little choice in the matter.

    Apologies to Pegasus if I came across as unnecessarily argumentative. I'll try to read more carefully in future.

    regards,

    GR
    No worries GR, as long as it doesn't dissolve into personal attacks I'm not too phased.

    I do stand by my comments and those of a few others that a group that large necessitates warning, even if you're unarmed or concealing. But again I wouldn't bother with the police. Restaurant management should be able to handle things if given whatever information you feel they need.

    It sounds like a fun meet-up, I wish I could make it myself, but I hope to be working (weekends) by then so I don't lose the apartment! Have fun out there, guys!

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    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    Orygunner wrote:
    If you choose, notifythe local police ahead of time to let them know that there will be a large group of law-abiding citizens open carrying at that restaurant at that time. Explain that the ONLY purpose of notifying them is so that they won't dispatch officers away from their other more important duties just to investigavea peaceful, legal open carry dinner.
    If I was the local police getting this notification I would be wondering if this was a ruse to preempt me from dispatching officers. THAT would be suspicious.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    There is no good reason for calling ahead to the restaurant other than letting them know of the group's size, date and time. Why would you want to give them the opportunity to refuse you?

    That said, I do think it is prudent for someone or several OCers to test the waters before extending an invitation to a group of some size. I would hope/trust that this has been done in this case. Can anybody confirm?

    Calling or notifying the local constabulary is also not a good suggestion. Such virtually requires that the group be checked out in some manner and sets in motion the possibility of mobilizing negative responses also. Should we "train" LE departments to expect us to clear such things through them? Please - no!

    This is not Warsaw 1942 - we are trying to improve inter-relationships and our 2nd Amendment rights, not asking for permission or to advise anyone of our movements. While I understand people wishing to avoid major negative problems, in this case your suggested cure is worse than the imagined problem.

    Dress, talk and act well and do not fear the imagined goblins in the closet.

    Yata hey
    __________________________________________________ ________________

    PS - to poster that suggested that our primary purpose was to eat and enjoy fellowship. Would you not carry so that we could get together? Then why not meet in a more central location like D.C. or Maryland? From a Virginian's perspective, I subscribe to the purpose/mission/goals for VCDL and OCDO and consider these efforts and my contribution to them as my principal reason for participating. The fact that I genuinely like so many of the people that I have met makes the journey that much more pleasant. No offense intended.

    Look forward to the opportunity to be there and enjoy the company of ol' friends and new alike.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MetalChris's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    This is not Warsaw 1942
    I estimate that in about 15 years we will be in the equivalent of Warsaw '42.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Pegasus wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    I sort of had a duct tape moment because of the comments about getting "advance permission" from the local restaurant and the local law enforcement agency concerning the multi-state meet-up here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...jump_to=215187.

    That is not the only place I have encountered the attitude that in order to be "safe" folks should contact the local law enforcement agency and see if they were "OK" with a bunch of folks who happen to be legally OC-ing getting together for a meal or some other reason. The same goes for suggestions that the place where folks are going to meet - usually a restaurant - ought to be contacted ahead of time to see if they are "OK" with a bunch of folks who are legally OC-ing getting together there for a meal.

    First, the places that are suggested are most often those where others have boldly gone before, and the attitude of the place is known to be tolerant if not outright friendly to OC-ers.

    Second, an attitude that suggests that we need to seek out a prior OK from the restaurant management places us in second class status, as I seriously doubt that if a bunch of plainclothes cops decided to go out to lunch together they would call up first and see if the place had any problems with a bunch of folks toting guns arriving for a meal. (I will NOT entertain any discussion of the "We are cops so you cannot complain about us" variety, thank you very much.)

    Third, if a place previously lnown to be tolerant or outright friendly to OC-ing suddenly has a change of heart because of the "large" number of OC-ers, they will also be aware of the loss of business for that day = and perhaps even consider future loss as well.

    I do not know all of you, but I presume you are all basically polite and kind folks who do not stiff the wait staff by not leaving a tip, and who do not regularly shoot up the place when you have had one too many rootbeer. I'm even willing to go out on the proverbial limb and guess that you are more likely that others to control your children if they accompany them - at least to the point that they do not jump on top of other diners' tables, snatch food off other people's plates, or go running around the dining areascreaming at the top of their lungs. As such, you are probably the kind of patrons that most restaurants want to have as guests.

    So, wrapping up my little rant - would someone please explain to me why there is all this paranoia about getting permission and prior approval to go out for a meal with some friends just because we happen to be legally OC-ing?

    Thank you, and we now return you to your normal viewing schedule.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    I think it's a matter of being polite and getting the law on your side FIRST instead of waiting for something to happen.

    I know people do not like to hear "you're just looking for trouble" but it seems to me that by going as a GROUP into any place that's not used to seeing large numbers of firearms, without at least giving warning before hand (which is not the same as asking permission), that's exactly what you're doing. Dickson City shouldn't have happened, but because it did I'd be even more wary of an OC dinner because now people are watching for us.

    I've got reservations about OC, so I am probably biased, but hear me out. If you go about your business alone, OC'ing, you are far less threatening than if you are in a group. That's a huge issue in the eyes of someone who is afraid or uncertain around an OC'er. In the eyes of someone like that, one person is something to avoid but a group is something to call the cops on. All the average person hears about guns is that they are used by gangs. You might look like the cleanest, neatest dressed, most polite "gang" out there, but you are armed and in a group and a person who has never met with that situation before may panic and make really stupid accusations about your motives.

    Second: In most areas, activism in groups is encouraged or required to have permission. What we are doing with OC is definitely activism, and OC groups doubly so. If you expected to go hand out flyers in a restaurant in a large group, or stand outside the public library waving signs, participate in a group march, or most other activist activities, wouldn't you call ahead to let people know you would be there? It's not a matter of being a second-class citizen, it's simply being polite to the people who will have to deal with you (and with anyone who wants to start fights with you).

    Finally, I'd feel really horrible taking advantage of the kindness of a restaurant or other gathering place by assuming that just because they tolerated me (or even if they openly supported me), they would also tolerate a large group of people like me. There is no guarantee that restaraunt owners will be agreeable to OC groups in their establishment no matter how friendly they are to a single man or a family. They may have plenty of reasons for this, too, including liability issues and not knowing whether one of their servers will flip out and call the cops. I'd gladly give up a dinner at my favorite restaurant while in an OC group if it meant that we avoided another Dickson City.

    If you don't feel like asking permission for a gathering, or feel like the expectation is wrong, then by all means continue without permission; I don't think it's wrong, just impolite and more likely to get you into confrontations that my instinct would be to avoid. I would simply feel far more comfortable knowing that the servers and staff were on our side, at the very least because servers could then quiet down patrons before anyone whipped out their cell phones. As great as OC is for spreading word of our cause, I think it's also important to make it look like we have someone other than ourselves on our side, and places openly hosting OC gatherings instead of being targets for them would be a good start.

    *prepares for argument*
    Poppycock!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Pegasus wrote:
    I think it's a matter of being polite and getting the law on your side FIRST instead of waiting for something to happen.

    I know people do not like to hear "you're just looking for trouble" but it seems to me that by going as a GROUP into any place that's not used to seeing large numbers of firearms, without at least giving warning before hand (which is not the same as asking permission), that's exactly what you're doing. Dickson City shouldn't have happened, but because it did I'd be even more wary of an OC dinner because now people are watching for us.

    I've got reservations about OC, so I am probably biased, but hear me out. If you go about your business alone, OC'ing, you are far less threatening than if you are in a group. That's a huge issue in the eyes of someone who is afraid or uncertain around an OC'er. In the eyes of someone like that, one person is something to avoid but a group is something to call the cops on. All the average person hears about guns is that they are used by gangs. You might look like the cleanest, neatest dressed, most polite "gang" out there, but you are armed and in a group and a person who has never met with that situation before may panic and make really stupid accusations about your motives.

    Second: In most areas, activism in groups is encouraged or required to have permission. What we are doing with OC is definitely activism, and OC groups doubly so. If you expected to go hand out flyers in a restaurant in a large group, or stand outside the public library waving signs, participate in a group march, or most other activist activities, wouldn't you call ahead to let people know you would be there? It's not a matter of being a second-class citizen, it's simply being polite to the people who will have to deal with you (and with anyone who wants to start fights with you).

    Finally, I'd feel really horrible taking advantage of the kindness of a restaurant or other gathering place by assuming that just because they tolerated me (or even if they openly supported me), they would also tolerate a large group of people like me. There is no guarantee that restaraunt owners will be agreeable to OC groups in their establishment no matter how friendly they are to a single man or a family. They may have plenty of reasons for this, too, including liability issues and not knowing whether one of their servers will flip out and call the cops. I'd gladly give up a dinner at my favorite restaurant while in an OC group if it meant that we avoided another Dickson City.

    If you don't feel like asking permission for a gathering, or feel like the expectation is wrong, then by all means continuewithout permission; I don't think it's wrong, just impolite and more likely to get you into confrontations that my instinct would be to avoid. I would simply feel far more comfortable knowing that the servers and staff were on our side, at the very least because servers could then quiet down patrons before anyone whipped out their cell phones. As great as OC is for spreading word of our cause, I think it's also important to make it look like we have someone other than ourselves on our side, and places openly hosting OC gatherings instead of being targets for them would be a good start.

    *prepares for argument*
    Poppycock!
    No argument sir, just the facts - that means no opinions or feelings.

    First I have been OCing for more years than many on this site of lived on this earth.
    I OC a vast majority of the time 24/7 and dine with large and small goups of fellow OCers regularly. Do we just march in enmasse and take over a section of the establishment - no! Do we make recommendations as to places that one or two of us have eaten before while OCing - yes. No I ask permission first - absolutely not.

    Now to address some points with facts (not opinion or feelings):

    getting the law on your side FIRST - the law is already on my side! I cannot and will not attempt to educate in advance each and every LEO I might happen to meet.

    Dickson City shouldn't have happened - the problem did not lie with the restaurant or staff but with the manner in which it was handled by LE. I will not debate this beyond this statement until after all law suits related are over. Bluntly though, sir, you do not know of what you speak.

    but a group is something to call the cops on - let's substitute motor cycle riders or people in Arab clothing (see the fallacy)for other citizens doing nothing wrong except in the imagination of a very few. Yes I said a very few. In the many, many dinners I have attended, their has never once been a problem! Actually major problems are extremely rare but do admittedly garner a lot of press.

    required to have permission - decided not true in Virginia. To have a parade or picket or have speeches and hold banners may require a permit or permission under some circumstances but not to eat as a group, have a picnic or hold a public or private meeting especially while maintaining good order.

    participate in a group march, or most other activist activities, wouldn't you call ahead to let people know you would be there? - most definitely not! When meeting with public active activism (Lobby Day at our General Assembly, gathering at MMM demonstrations etc) it would be counter productive/bad tatics to forwarn/forarm the opposition.

    feel really horrible taking advantage of the kindness of a restaurant - kindness? They are operating a business and we are spending 200-300-400 or more dollars there! Do you really think that an owner or manager is being "kind" to you when he gives you"permission" to spend your money there? :shock:

    I'd gladly give up a dinner at my favorite restaurant while in an OC group if it meant that we avoided another Dickson City. Only through this type of reaction (though it was not of their choosing) will some wrongs be corrected. The very best way to avoid conflict in life is to do nothing. I am tired of political correctness, attempts to make everybody happy and of "if it only saves one" at the expense of many.

    just impolite - Sir, I admit that I take umbrage at your inference that I am impolite for not doing so. I sincerely doubt that there is anyone more deeply commited to furthering this cause in the State of Virginia than I am nor anyone more polite - granted others may spend more time and/or be more effective than I.

    more likely to get you into confrontations - you mean like OK Corral, and Dodge City et al predictions. In other words, if we don't conduct ourselves by someone else's standards we'll get into trouble.....PLEASE! This is from the playbook of the MMM.

    I fear that if many had your "tip-toe" approach we will be asking the National Police for permission to eat out on alternate Tuesdays only and then sans our defensive tools. Sincerely, I am not trying to be insulting but you must grant me one small opinion.

    Question sir - are you planning on attending the multi-state meet-up or do you just want to be sure that everything has been done to assure the comfort of others. I somehow doubt the former - if the latter, don't bother we are all big boys and girls.

    Yata hey

    PS - We cannot carry concealed in anyplace that serves alcohol for on premises consumption in Virginia. If we are to carry, it must be openly to be legal. The state and the king require it.

    Edited to add Post Script
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Yes,very well said, indeed.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    And to add to my previous rebuttal -

    Paraphrasing Col. Jeff Cooper -

    No, I not go looking for trouble but should it unavoidably find me, it is my sincerest wish that it should find considerably more of it than it was seeking.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Only one minor (major?) correction though - Pegasus is female, so it'd be ma'am, not sir.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Aran wrote:
    Only one minor (major?) correction though - Pegasus is female, so it'd be ma'am, not sir.
    Sir = seriously induced rancor, also exaggerated politness that a Sgt might use when addressing a shavetail Lt. w/elevated ideas as to the value of his opinions. For me, ma'am denotes respect for position or age. Occasionally I use "sir" with equal sarcastic impunity thus avoid even the appearance of a personal attack on the individual. Yes I also utilize "sir" as a form of respect. Which applies in a given instance? Good question but one that shall go unanswered.

    To those that think a multi-state meet up of a couple of dozen would be a "large group" warranting advance notice of who and what we are: our Richmond OC dinners frequently have 1 1/2 dozen in attendance, VCDL meetings with 30-40+ people often have nearly 2 doz. gathering to eat afterwards. A really "large group" would be like the recent VCDL picnic with about 200+ showing up. To the best of my knowledge neither did we state in advance that we would be OCing nor did we contact LE in any preceeding instance.

    I would sincerely hope that more than 2 dozen commit to attending the meet-up in Leesburg, Va. In fact I fully expect that will be the case and we shall have to adapt if that becomes apparent.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    I apologize if this has already been stated, because I haven't read the whole thread yet.

    I think, more than anything, it's a practical matter.

    If you should up somewhere and get kicked out, you now have to:

    1. Find an alternate venue that
    2. Is agreeable to the group and
    3. Can accommodate you, as well as
    4. Figure out transportation for anyone that arrived by bus/train etc., and
    5. Notify anybody attending who hasn't show up yet
    6. who may be out of cell range, or
    7. Risk them being arrested because they already "told the guys with the guns to leave," and your late straggler is now presumed a trespasser because he "hung around anyway"...

    From an organizing prospective, finding a "safe" place is a matter of logistics and convenience more than anything else. Asking if they'll take your gun group is no different than asking if they can handle your group of 200 people. Some restaurants simply won't be able to accommodate your request, for whatever reason, and knowing that fact before hand saves a lot of hassle. It's not about making yourself a second class citizen any more than finding out if a place is accessible by bus/wheelchair makes them second class, or finding out of the place can accommodate 200 people makes the whole group "second class" when they then say, "Oh, we only have room for about 50 here..."

    Can't speculate about why people are asking police departments for permission, though... That's just wrong.

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