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Thread: Not the best OC experience with an acquaintance.

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    When I ride my motorcycle, I usually OC. It is more comfortable to wear and is undermy jacket (yes, I do have a CPL). I often go out to different places and meet up with people to ride; usually these are young-ish guys on sportbikes. I don't know everyone in the group, but most of them are familiar to me and very friendly. When we stop at a desination, sometimes take my jacket off and OC - other times I don't want the exposure as "the guy with the gun". Lots of guys have commented, but it has never been a problem... until last Tuesday.

    We had stopped at a place to take a break. One guy saw my gun and said "you need to cover that up". I responded "why?". Hesaid a couple times, "you should cover that up". Again, from me "why?". He stated that it's against the law. He lifted his shirt and showed me his Glock tucked into the front of his pants as he said "see, you need to have it concealed like this". It seemed like just a reason for him to show everyone that he is 'cool enough' to carry a gun too I did confirm that he was using a holster (thankfully), and he does have his CPL. I said, "I have the laws right here" as I got my OCDO pamphlet out. So he came over and said "show me where it says it is legal". I had to explain that laws do not make things legal, they make things illegal. Therefore, I told him I could show him the laws, but not one that says it is legal to OC. Hearing that, he turned and walked away, insisting that it is illegal to OC. He kept on insisting that I cover my gun up because it's illegal. I was frustrated. I finally said "I can't find the law that says it is legal to OC, so you must be right that it's illegal" and I turned to talk with some other people. There was one friend of mine there who argued on my side of things, stating that it is legal.

    I guess you just can't talk to some people If/when I see him again, I will make a point of greeting him and shaking his hand. I regret not doing that while we were there. I want him to know that even if Iquestion his knowledge of the law, I certainly don't have a problem with him personally.

    Another thing... after the 'argument', a guy I have know for about a year came over and said "why do you have to carry that?" in a clearly disapproving tone. I replied that I did not do it to scare him
    IBTL

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    So correct me if I am wrong... But lifting up your shirt to point out your weapon to someone in public could be construed as brandishing? Or at least an act that could cause someone to become alarmed with in the sense of the law?

    Next time just tell him to go home and study up on RCW 9.41.270

    Or ask him to provide the state law that says OC is illegal.

    Edit: as to the gentleman that asked you why you had to carry it. Tell him that you don't ask him why he wears a helmet on his bike. You don't ask him because you already know the answer, it should be thesame way with a firearm.

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    David.Car wrote:
    So correct me if I am wrong... But lifting up your shirt to point out your weapon to someone in public could be construed as brandishing? Or at least an act that could cause someone to become alarmed with in the sense of the law?

    Next time just tell him to go home and study up on RCW 9.41.270

    Or ask him to provide the state law that says OC is illegal.

    Edit: as to the gentleman that asked you why you had to carry it. Tell him that you don't ask him why he wears a helmet on his bike. You don't ask him because you already know the answer, it should be thesame way with a firearm.
    The is no state law on brandishing. Just showing you weapon is not brandishing by a long shot unless your intent was to intimidate him, then you get to be illegal. I had a guy once with a gun in his hand held along side his leg, muzzle down and the 3 cops all said it didn't qualify as brandishing.He was trying to intimidate me but it didn't work and he was totally unaware of how close he came to being shot. If he had raised the muzzle toward me it would have been over.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The is no state law on brandishing. Just showing you weapon is not brandishing by a long shot unless your intent was to intimidate him, then you get to be illegal. I had a guy once with a gun in his hand held along side his leg, muzzle down and the 3 cops all said it didn't qualify as brandishing.He was trying to intimidate me but it didn't work and he was totally unaware of how close he came to being shot. If he had raised the muzzle toward me it would have been over.
    I am trying to imagine the situation where a guy could have a gun in his hand at his side with intent to intimidate where I would not be legally allowed to pull my weapon and kill said man...

    You have a story you want to share? Or a link to a thread where it was shared?

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    David.Car wrote:
    Or ask him to provide the state law that says OC is illegal.

    Edit: as to the gentleman that asked you why you had to carry it. Tell him that you don't ask him why he wears a helmet on his bike. You don't ask him because you already know the answer, it should be thesame way with a firearm.

    Yes, I asked him for that. He would only reply that I need to show him where it says it is legal. I stayed in that conversation FAR too long.

    My comment to the other guy was meant to kinda point out that he was the only one around use, among 10-15 people, who had a concern about me simply having a gun with me. It worked. He kept quiet after that. BTW, he had not heard the entire conversation between myself and the other guy.

    David.Car wrote:
    I am trying to imagine the situation where a guy could have a gun in his hand at his side with intent to intimidate where I would not be legally allowed to pull my weapon and kill said man...

    You have a story you want to share? Or a link to a thread where it was shared?
    If he has his gun in his hand and yours is still in your holster, you had better be a REALLY fast draw. <-That's not serious. My point is that you will not beat him to the first shot.
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    We had stopped at a place to take a break. One guy saw my gun and said "you need to cover that up". I responded "why?". Hesaid a couple times, "you should cover that up". [snipped] He kept on insisting that I cover my gun up because it's illegal. I was frustrated. I finally said "I can't find the law that says it is legal to OC, so you must be right that it's illegal" and I turned to talk with some other people. There was one friend of mine there who argued on my side of things, stating that it is legal.
    So on your breakif you were grabbing a bite you could use the same logic to score his food. By his logic, "show me the law is that says you can eat a Big Mac and it's legal..."

    Oh, you're not going to eat that? Well wouldn't want it to go to waste.




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    I did use that logic in a different way... I asked him to show me the law that made it legal to stand on the grass. He replied "this is public property, so I can stand here" :quirky
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    He would only reply that I need to show him where it says it is legal.
    I'll bet he's one of these people that no matter how many times you tell him the fence is electric he still has to piss on it himself to be sure.

    You'll never convince him OC is legal. Get on to other more productive pursuits.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    David.Car wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The is no state law on brandishing. Just showing you weapon is not brandishing by a long shot unless your intent was to intimidate him, then you get to be illegal. I had a guy once with a gun in his hand held along side his leg, muzzle down and the 3 cops all said it didn't qualify as brandishing.He was trying to intimidate me but it didn't work and he was totally unaware of how close he came to being shot. If he had raised the muzzle toward me it would have been over.
    I am trying to imagine the situation where a guy could have a gun in his hand at his side with intent to intimidate where I would not be legally allowed to pull my weapon and kill said man...

    You have a story you want to share? Or a link to a thread where it was shared?
    Years ago and far away, when I was young and thought I was bullet proof, evidence to the contrary, I had a confrontation with the ex-wife over her behavior.Some of her family tried to intimidate me and of course that wasn't gonna work. The best part was they knew she was wrong and did it anyway. No one got punched or shot and the cops just made everyone cool off then go home. FYI, she is in rehab for the fourth time now.

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    If he has his gun in his hand and yours is still in your holster, you had better be a REALLY fast draw. <-That's not serious. My point is that you will not beat him to the first shot.
    I had seen the nitwit shoot before and there was about 1 in 100 chance of him hitting anyone with his first 3 shots. I would also have been moving. I was young then and could move real well and had practices shooting while moving.

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    David.Car wrote:
    I am trying to imagine the situation where a guy could have a gun in his hand at his side with intent to intimidate where I would not be legally allowed to pull my weapon and kill said man...
    I don't want to go off-topic too far, but this is important.

    I am not a lawyer, and self-defense law may vary in your state.

    If you know he is trying to intimidate you, you are missing one of the elements of justified lethal force. You are missing jeopardy/intent.

    "You see what I got in my hand, buster?" is different from "I'm going to shoot you in just a second." Intimidation is not, to quote Massad Ayoob, immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of grave bodily injury or death to the innocent. Absent his doing or saying something that would lead a reasonable person to concludehe is really going to do it, its my understanding you would not be justified in using lethal force.

    If you are not familiar with the elements of justified lethal force, please do take time to find out about them. Its tremendously important. There are some self-defense websites that give an introduction. Key words: ability, opportunity, jeopardy or intent.

    Separately, killing someone is different than stopping someone. Shooting to stop the threat is the goal, never killing.Whenever the threat is over, stop shooting. Whetheryour assailantis alive or dead. If he dies, it is incidental to you stopping the threat. If you keep shooting past the point he stopped being a threat, you are in legal jeopardy because your legal justification to use lethal force ended when the threat ended.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Back to the subject matter. You argued in the wrong direction with your friend.

    It's not that open carry is legal, it's just that open carry is not illegal. There is a difference. By default, it is legal, but by law it's not illegal.

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    Statkowski wrote:
    Back to the subject matter. You argued in the wrong direction with your friend.

    It's not that open carry is legal, it's just that open carry is not illegal. There is a difference. By default, it is legal, but by law it's not illegal.
    Damn man, you have almost as many of those little silver and bronze stars on that ribbon as I do.

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    Statkowski wrote:
    Back to the subject matter. You argued in the wrong direction with your friend.

    It's not that open carry is legal, it's just that open carry is not illegal. There is a difference. By default, it is legal, but by law it's not illegal.
    I'm not sure that I agree. I stated to him precisely, "OC is legal because a law does not make it illegal". Isn't that the same thing that you said?
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    Statkowski wrote:
    Back to the subject matter. You argued in the wrong direction with your friend.

    It's not that open carry is legal, it's just that open carry is not illegal. There is a difference. By default, it is legal, but by law it's not illegal.
    I'm not sure that I agree. I stated to him precisely, "OC is legal because a law does not make it illegal". Isn't that the same thing that you said?
    A better way to phrase it would have been, "OC is legal because there is no law making it illegal."

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