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My first open carry today.

Grapeshot

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ProShooter wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
It's not very often that someone volunteers to take the shot for you is it.
Stepping in front to take the bullet really takes something. Wow!

Yata hey
It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
Nice epitaph.

Yata hey
 

ProShooter

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Grapeshot wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
It's not very often that someone volunteers to take the shot for you is it.
Stepping in front to take the bullet really takes something. Wow!

Yata hey
It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
Nice epitaph.

Yata hey

"the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph"........

Someone has to protect the summer soldier and the sunshine patriot.
 

richarcm

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ProShooter wrote:
TexasNative wrote:
In a nutshell, the Virginia Administrative Code prohibits the possession of firearms on the VCU campus. There's debate as to whether that is legally enforceable. No one wants to be the test case to find out.
Actually, there's a secondary debate about that statute. It seems to only prohibit firearms by members of the university community.
Isn't that how it is for all Virginia public universities? It is legal to open carry but it is also at the universities descertion as to whether or not they are able to fire you or expel you from their campus? So as long as you don't work there or go to school there all they can do is question whether or not you are a student or faculty. Beyond that they can't do much.

Unless VCU is able to go around the law somehow I would think that it would follow what is typical for VA state run schools.
 

SicSemperTyrannis

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Welcome, Chris (Chris is one of my best friend of many years, and I am thrilled to see him here)

Chris, VCU actually is an exception to what you described. Otherwise, you have it correct. Students and staff can expect to be fired/expelled, but non-affiliated persons can carry on campus. But there is language in the Virginia Administrative Code that seperately governs aspects of VCU, including gun carry, whic is forbidden. There is some controversy over the applicability of the language, but at VCU (unlike JMU, UVA, Va Tech, etc) your gun could be lawfully seized (and not returned) for carrying.

Many of us have carried at Va Tech, UVA, JMU, etc - even since the Va Tech tragedy. But, you shouldn't carry on VCU property! I am a JMU alum (undergrad and grad), and have open carried there three times since graduating.
 

richarcm

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SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
Welcome, Chris (Chris is one of my best friend of many years, and I am thrilled to see him here)

Chris, VCU actually is an exception to what you described. Otherwise, you have it correct. Students and staff can expect to be fired/expelled, but non-affiliated persons can carry on campus. But there is language in the Virginia Administrative Code that seperately governs aspects of VCU, including gun carry, whic is forbidden. There is some controversy over the applicability of the language, but at VCU (unlike JMU, UVA, Va Tech, etc) your gun could be lawfully seized (and not returned) for carrying.

Many of us have carried at Va Tech, UVA, JMU, etc - even since the Va Tech tragedy. But, you shouldn't carry on VCU property! I am a JMU alum (undergrad and grad), and have open carried there three times since graduating.
What is it exactly that makes VCU a special case?

Is this something that other universities could do if they wanted to or are they just not able to due to the technicality of this code?
 

ProShooter

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Here is the Code that we're talking about, and I'll explain why it only pertains to students, employees, etc:

8VAC90-10-50. The right to academic freedom and to equal educational and occupational access.

The university is committed to providing an environment conducive to academic freedom, free inquiry, and equal access to educational and occupational opportunities. The principle of academic freedom requires all persons to respect another's dignity, to acknowledge another's right to express differing opinions, to cultivate and to cherish intellectual honesty, and to promote freedom of inquiry and expression. It is therefore the policy of the university that no act of any member of the university community shall serve to restrain or inhibit access to opportunities or the exercise of these freedoms. To that end, no person, either singly or in concert with others, shall willfully:

1. Discriminate against another person on a basis not reasonably related to the educational or job functions involved on the basis of race, ethnicity, sex, religion, color, creed, disability, sexual orientation, marital status, and age.

2. Harass or intimidate any person.

3. Cause physical injury or threaten any person with force or violence.

4. Have in his possession any firearm, other weapon, or explosive, regardless of whether a license to possess the same has been issued, without the written authorization of the president of the university. This restriction does not apply to persons whose duties lawfully require the possession of firearms or other weapons.

5. Disrupt or prevent the peaceful or orderly conduct of classes, lectures, meetings, or other university functions, or interfere with the lawful freedom of other persons, including invited speakers, to express their views.

6. Falsify or forge an official university record or document, or file documents with the university with the intent to mislead.

7. Lie, cheat, steal, or plagiarize. Violations of lying, cheating, plagiarism, and stealing will be adjudicated through this chapter or other applicable documents. Student academic violations of lying, cheating, plagiarism, and stealing will be referred to the VCU Honor System for adjudication.

8. Violate any duly authorized university rule or regulation issued pursuant to a specific university function, for example, regulations applicable to social events, the library, or university hospitals.

9. Incite others to commit any act which has been herein prohibited.

10. Bring charges against a member of the university community that are spurious, or that are intended primarily to harass or maliciously defame, or that are designed to intentionally overburden the adjudicatory system.

Statutory Authority

§23-50.10 of the Code of Virginia.

Historical Notes

Derived from VR649-01-01 §2.2, eff. February 16, 1995.



ok, the first highlighted sentence describes acts by members of the University community (teachers, students, employees) and then says TO THAT END, NO PERSON SHALL........"To that end" is an older way of continuing a sentence's meaning on to the next sentence.

Look at these examples:

"I feel very tired right now. To that end, I'm going to take a nap"

"I feel very tired right now, so I'm going to take a nap"

Today we would use the word "so" rather than "to that end".

Now try this -

".......no act of any member of the university community shall serve to restrain or inhibit access to opportunities or the exercise of these freedoms so, no person, shall have in his possession any firearm, other weapon, or explosive, regardless of whether a license to possess the same has been issued"

It is quite obviousthat the rules set down in the list pertain to "members of the university community" because they talk about such things as disturbing classes, plagiarizing, lying, cheating, forging a university record, etc.

These rules only apply to students, teachers and employees - not the rest of us.
 

Grapeshot

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Few here would take exception that VCU's policy of no weapons is on shaky ground and they might/probably/should lose in court. This has been discussed ad nasium for years. The fact remains that no test case has ever been heard and that VCU has made their position/interpertation quite clear.

So ladies and gentlemen, who amoung you shall it be? We have those that will advise you with the full force of their opinions and even those that will contribute some to your defense. All you need do is risk your time and your money not to mention your weapon and other valuable considerations.

Meanwhile, I strongly suggest that you do not carry in the facilities of Virginia Commonwealth University unless you are fully prepared to do battle with a deep pocket opponent.

Yata hey
 

TexasNative

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It's also worth pointing out the parallels with the wording of the Second Amendment. That is to say, you have a prefatory clause which has no bearing on the main clause, which is, "no person, either singly or in concert with others, shall willfully...Have in his possession any firearm..."

I think it's a losing argument to say that the VAC says something other than what it clearly says. If there's a winning argument, it's that the Administrative Code doesn't carry the force of law, as the Virginia Code (no "A") does. IMHO, and IANAL.

But hey, ProShooter, as has been said, if you want to be the test case, you'll help out a lot of folks by walking around the campus of VCU OC. Like many others, I'll even pitch in for your defense.

Oh, and you won't have to protect me there. I've got no reason to visit their lovely campus.

~ Boyd
 

67GT390FB

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ProShooter wrote:
ProShooter volunteers to be the test case. :celebrate

stay afe.

skidmark

Dont worry skidmark....you can cower behind me, trembling in fear....I'll protect ya. :)
that's funny, skid is generallyaccused of "looming" not cowering.:monkey:monkey
 

skidmark

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ProShooter wrote:
seems here lately that some folks are holding out for a hero..... :)

And you are just the guy to step up and be one, aren't you?

I'll double any amount that Grapeshot puts in for your defense fund, plus one more penny. Not because I'm independently wealthy & have $$ to throw around, or because I'm trying to get Grapeshot to go broke in a potlatch. It's because I hear a lot of talk and see no action from a certain corner.

Looming large.

skidmark

PS - to the OP, I apologize for the thread hijacking. Don't let the squabble about VCU's foray into the Virginia Administrative Code interfere with your enjoyment of the OC experience.

skidmark
 

ProShooter

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skidmark wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
seems here lately that some folks are holding out for a hero..... :)

And you are just the guy to step up and be one, aren't you?

I'll double any amount that Grapeshot puts in for your defense fund, plus one more penny. Not because I'm independently wealthy & have $$ to throw around, or because I'm trying to get Grapeshot to go broke in a potlatch. It's because I hear a lot of talk and see no action from a certain corner.

Looming large.

skidmark

PS - to the OP, I apologize for the thread hijacking. Don't let the squabble about VCU's foray into the Virginia Administrative Code interfere with your enjoyment of the OC experience.

skidmark


ah skidmark, once again you are trying to sell me something that I have no interest in buying....

I find it mildly amusing that when a topic comes up here, people offer varying opinions and the topic generally dies there. When I offer an opinion, you are all too willing to offer me up as the sacrificial lamb. You would love to have me purposely try to get myself arrested so that I would have to defend myself for your cause.

I offered my opinion on the statute as I read it, just like anyone else here. Nothing more, nothing less. I have no reason to be at VCU and have no desire to be the test case for your amusement. If you do not like my layman's interpretation of a statute (as you have voiced before ad nauseum), then dont believe it. No one is holding a gun to your head.
 

TexasNative

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But you see, here's the difference, ProShooter. If you manage to persuade the uninitiated with your argument, they run the risk of being the test case. And you would have been the one to convince them to put themselves in jeopardy.

This is why you're so strongly rebutted when you voice this opinion. We need to be sure that anyone who might be convinced understands that they're putting themselves at risk.

So it kinda makes sense that if you're so convinced you're right, you should prove it. If you're not willing to do that, then you really shouldn't be advocating your position, lest someone do what you're not willing to do yourself and suffer the inevitable consequences.
 

ProShooter

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TexasNative wrote:
But you see, here's the difference, ProShooter. If you manage to persuade the uninitiated with your argument, they run the risk of being the test case. And you would have been the one to convince them to put themselves in jeopardy.

This is why you're so strongly rebutted when you voice this opinion. We need to be sure that anyone who might be convinced understands that they're putting themselves at risk.

So it kinda makes sense that if you're so convinced you're right, you should prove it. If you're not willing to do that, then you really shouldn't be advocating your position, lest someone do what you're not willing to do yourself and suffer the inevitable consequences.
I must be more eloquent in my arguments than I give myself credit for.

Wouldnt it stand to reason that if anyone persuaded the uninitiated with their argument,the same risk applies?

I offer no legal advice for I am not a lawyer, and anyone who would jeopardize their legal standing with something that they are unsure of, should not rely solely on what they read on an internet message board. My opinions are no different than anyone else's. Believe what you want, and do your research to form your own opinions.
 

TexasNative

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ProShooter wrote:
Wouldnt it stand to reason that if anyone persuaded the uninitiated with their argument,the same risk applies?
Hardly. If I convince someone that I'm correct in my uncertainty on the meaning of the VAC as regards VCU, then they will either not carry on the VCU campus, or, preferably, avoid the campus altogether. Even if they never bother to look into it any further, they won't be at risk of being arrested.

If they're convinced you're right? They likely become a test case. Do you see the difference?
 

ProShooter

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TexasNative wrote:
ProShooter wrote:
Wouldnt it stand to reason that if anyone persuaded the uninitiated with their argument,the same risk applies?
Hardly. If I convince someone that I'm correct in my uncertainty on the meaning of the VAC as regards VCU, then they will either not carry on the VCU campus, or, preferably, avoid the campus altogether. Even if they never bother to look into it any further, they won't be at risk of being arrested.

If they're convinced you're right? They likely become a test case. Do you see the difference?


So you are saying that if you convince someone that you are uncertain about the law, they wont run the risk but if you convince someone that you are certain of the law, they run the risk ofyou being wrong.

That's true with anything......I dont see much of a difference in what I said earlier.
 
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