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Thread: Killeen Daily Herald News highlights Texas Open Carry petition

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    Story brings up 2 new objections to open carry.

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    http://www.kdhnews.com/news/story.aspx?s=26536

    Get your gun: Group seeks signatures for 'open-carry' law Posted on: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 6:53 AM


    Click image(s) to enlarge
    Herald/JOHN A. BOWERSMITH
    Frank Leslie holds a timer while Steve Crago fires his pistol at targets during an International Defensive Pistol Association competition on July 5 at Lloyd’s Gun Range in Kempner.
    [line]
    Herald/JOHN A. BOWERSMITH
    Frank Leslie explains the next stage in an International Defensive Pistol Association shooting competition at Lloyd’s Gun Range in Kempner.
    By Mason W. Canales
    Killeen Daily Herald


    An online petition for residents to carry handguns in plain sight in Texas had obtained more than 20,000 signatures last week. The petition will be submitted to Gov. Rick Perry and the Texas Legislature sometime in the future.

    According to the petition, Texas is one of only six states in the U.S. that ban the use of publicly displayed handguns – also known as "open-carry" handguns.

    Ten states – Arizona, Alaska, Idaho, Kentucky, Montana, New Mexico, South Dakota, Virginia, Vermont and Wyoming – allow residents to openly carry a handgun without a license, the petition stated, including those states as one reason why Texas should adopt an open-carry law.

    Other reasons listed in the petition include:

    It is a constitutional right to bear arms.

    People who are going to commit crimes with guns don't abide by the law anyway.

    People have the right to defend themselves against death and bodily injury.

    It is too hot in Texas to wear a jacket that would conceal a handgun.

    A concealed handgun cannot be drawn quickly enough to save a person's life.

    Criminals won't carry guns openly anyway because they don't want to draw attention to themselves.

    Crime will be deterred by openly carrying handguns.

    Some Central Texans are in support of the petition, including Steve Garza of Pflugerville, who commutes to Killeen every day.

    "I would prefer that (the law) be open carry ?," Garza said. "Open carry and concealed is a simple matter of choice."

    Garza is waiting to get his concealed handgun license from the state, he said.

    He believes that carrying a gun in plain view will deter criminals from attacking him or others around him because of his displayed firearm, Garza said.

    But others, such as David Cheadle, a Guns Galore employee, believe otherwise.

    "It takes away your advantage," Cheadle said.

    A person who is determined to rob a store will see you as a threat and attack you first, Cheadle said.

    Cheadle's view is shared by Lloyd Leppo, a concealed handgun instructor and owner of a gun range in Kempner.

    "If a bad guy walks into an open room, I would like him not to know if there is one person, no persons or 100 persons who have a gun," Leppo said.

    Another problem with carrying a gun in the open is that the gun can potentially become a weapon used by someone else against you, Cheadle said.

    "There are so many people that can get to that gun," Leppo said. "How many times do we see stories of an officer getting shot with his own gun?"

    While officers have a number of safety measures on their holsters and are trained in self-defense, a lot of people don't take proper precautions, Cheadle said.

    A person can walk up behind someone, take the handgun and use it against that person or someone else, Cheadle said.

    Another concern that Cheadle and Leppo share is that people will treat their guns like their cars.

    Open carry will give people a reason to "dress up" their guns. Cheadle predicts that people will start carrying guns with diamonds on them and guns in all sorts of fancy colors.

    "I know how big and gaudy the belt buckles are in this state; I can only imagine what the guns are going to be like," Leppo said.

    This creates a problem because that handgun is more than likely to be shown off and possibly passed out of its holster, which increases the potential for accidental discharge, Cheadle said.

    People like Edward Isenberg, owner of handgun distributor Just Glocks, aren't sure which type of law they'd prefer.

    "I haven't seen the petition, but I would not for sure sign it," Isenberg said Tuesday.

    For Isenberg, carrying a handgun and having it displayed openly means making a common sense judgment.

    If you were hunting and had your sidearm in a holster and stopped for a sandwich, you may not take if off before eating, Isenberg said. In contrast, why would someone need to carry a handgun into a bank? he asked.

    "People have really good intentions, but it all lies in how they carry," Isenberg said.

    Contact Mason W. Canales at mcanales@kdhnews.com or (254) 501-7554.

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    The thing with people like Mr. Cheadleand Mr.Leppo is that they are merely imposing their personal opinions on everyone by not supporting this effort. Which way is best? I can not say. Neither can they. It really comes down to the given situation. What I can say is that I do not see it causing the predicted problems in other states, which goes a long way to disprove these adverse predictions.

    I live in Texas and carry all the time. Personally, I prefer to carry concealed when practical but would enjoy having the ability to carry openly when conditions limit my ability to effectively carry concealed (i.e. hot weather). Basically, I prefer to be comfortable and even if carrying openly removes some of my advantage (which I do not necessarily agree that it does) I would rather carry openly than not at all. When I carry openly I do take greater precautions to protect my weapon (i.e. carry in a secured holster, keep a greater distance from other people and those approaching me, keep my weapon side away from people near me, etc) but I do not necessarily feel more vulnerable.

    There are many arguments as to which is the best way to carry and for any givenargument there is an equally validcounter argument. For example, the goal is to avoid altercations and if the site of a weapon deters a crime then isn't that a good thing? The counter is that the open carry guy will be the first target, either shot or at least disarmed. The bottom line is that how one carries is a personal choice and it is not for one side to back or oppose one way or the other just because of their personal opinion on which is best. I would remind Mr. Cheadle andMr. Leppo that during the push for CCW in Texas, many people refused to back it because they felt there should be no restrictions on CCW or OC, which hurt the cause. While I would certainly vote of unlicensed OC or CCW, I backed the CHL plan because it was better than not at all. This is no different. If someone wants to carry openly and itworks against them in the end, well,that was their choice. The real argument here is not which way is best to carry, but if someone should be allowed to carry that way if they so choose. The fact is, and both sides agree on this, that it is better to carry than to not carry, and which wayto carry is the best is a totally separate issue. Don't let the press trick you into an anti carry argument by changing the subject.

    Another issue I have with this article is Mr. Cheadle's remark about Texans opting to carry flashy, gem encrusted guns as if they were jewelry. Since when was the finish of a firearm a factor? Should we only issue drivers licenses to those driving a certain vehicle that he approves?Perhaps he needs to reevaluate his views. What if the state told him what weapon he had to carry under his CHL? Do you think he would be in the front of the complaint line on that one? And if I owned "Guns Galore" (isn't that a flashy, bad image name fora gun store?) I would fire him for running down the customer base. Why work in a business selling to people you have so little opinion and respect for?

    Just my thoughts on the matter.

    Doc

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    DocNTexas wrote:
    The thing with people like Mr. Cheadleand Mr.Leppo is that they are merely imposing their personal opinions on everyone by not supporting this effort.
    Some gun owners are our worst enemy - they need to understand the bg tent & NATO doctrine theories.

    These fellows seem to be acting like the antis who believe that others will be irresponsible just because if they are irresponsible.

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    What gets me is this Hollywood mentality, whereby two guys carrying guns are going to mark off 10 paces at sundownin the local convenience store parking lot because someone looked at his girlthe wrong way, God this kills me and it is ridiculous.Forty four other states have open carry in one matter or another and blood is not running in the streets. The anti's said the same thingabout CC before it passed. Now statistics show that crime has actually gone down. I can't for the life of me find any news stories from across the country where 2 OC or CC folks just began gunning down each other in the streets however, I've found numerous stories of criminals and gangbangers that have.

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    "OPENCARRY" is only one way to carry a weapon-but one that should be allowed. The PRINTING portion of the Concealed Carry should be done away with especially since the weather here in TEXAS in the Summer is rather uncomfortable and if a person decides to openly display his/her firearm then it is their right plain and simple. Some people such as myself work out in the elements whether rain or shine all year and the job that I perform (FARRIER) keeps me up late and sometimes rather out in the "STICKS". When you are headed home after a long day with very much cash in your pocket, trying to get to the BANK and your truck breaks down or you have to stop for some other reason, then the firearm definitely will allow you some piece of mind.

    The general public needs to understand that there are certain circumstances that can arise in a very short period of time that can be dangerous for yourself or anyone that may be with or near you in the daily routine of life.

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    It is a constitutional right to bear arms.
    That should be the end of it right there. All the other reasons to allow open carry are just icing on the cake. We live in America, and the law of the land as spelled out in the constitution says that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    How exactly are you bearing arms if you are hiding them?

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    I think a very small minority of criminals are going to immediately attack the one or two open carriers they see in a store, bank, etc. These are the especially hardened and ruthless types that often end up killing even compliant clerks and customers.

    The rest of the bad guys are pretty cowardly and will simply slink away upon seeing armed customers or police.


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    Overtaxed wrote:
    I think a very small minority of criminals are going to immediately attack the one or two open carriers they see in a store, bank, etc. These are the especially hardened and ruthless types that often end up killing even compliant clerks and customers.

    The rest of the bad guys are pretty cowardly and will simply slink away upon seeing armed customers or police.
    I think you meant "I think ONLY a very small minority of criminals are going to immediately attack the one or two open carriers they see in a store, bank, etc."

    I agree - I have never heard of open carriers being assasinated on the street, save for that mad man who blazxed into a city council meeting and shot the uniformed police - typical open carrier is not going to be noticed like a uniformed police officer.

    However, criminals already engaged in crime will open up on a concealed carrier who presents his gun, examples are numerous.

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    Mike wrote:
    Overtaxed wrote:
    I think a very small minority of criminals are going to immediately attack the one or two open carriers they see in a store, bank, etc. These are the especially hardened and ruthless types that often end up killing even compliant clerks and customers.

    The rest of the bad guys are pretty cowardly and will simply slink away upon seeing armed customers or police.
    I think you meant "I think ONLY a very small minority of criminals are going to immediately attack the one or two open carriers they see in a store, bank, etc."

    I agree - I have never heard of open carriers being assasinated on the street, save for that mad man who blazxed into a city council meeting and shot the uniformed police - typical open carrier is not going to be noticed like a uniformed police officer.

    However, criminals already engaged in crime will open up on a concealed carrier who presents his gun, examples are numerous.
    Absolutely!

    The fact that so many state already have OC is the best proof that it works without the problems the opposition cite as certain consequences of such practices being passed in Texas.

    If this were a new concept I could understand the reservation and concerns, but get real, it is a PROVEN concept at this point.

    Doc

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    This is the email I just sent to GunsGalore.



    I will not be patronizing your store again anytime soon, if ever again. I would usually stop in a few times a year for some ammo after visiting my army buddy. I suppose I’ll just get it elsewhere since your employees believe their opinions on my preferred method of carry should be the law of the state. In spite of Mr Cheadle’s opinion, people in a number of states carry openly with out the bloodbaths or any other disasters Mr Cheadle parroted for the brady bunch. You either support the right, or you can be a wishy washy moderate and get boycotted by folks who take firm stands on core fundamental issues.

    Sincerely,

    (My Name)



    That oughtalearn 'im to keep his trap shut!!
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Pretty strong words but I don't disagree with a single one, Praying.

    I don't know that this is anything new, it's just a different version. Anti's like to say "People will do this, People will do that" When in fact they don't. When I say "in Fact," I mean that. Like Doc Said, there is PLENTY of precedence in other states where none of this happens. A little education and reasearch goes a long way.

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    The thing with people like Mr. Cheadleand Mr.Leppo is that they are merely imposing their personal opinions on everyone by not supporting this effort.
    I think that their BIG problem is that as employees of a Gun Shop, they see the potential loss of revenue if OC became legal possibly causing them to see economic cutbacks by their employer. Especially if no trainig is required/mandated as in some of the current OC states. Maybe they just don't see the holes in their arguments. Just my .02.

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    sccrref wrote:
    The thing with people like Mr. Cheadleand Mr.Leppo is that they are merely imposing their personal opinions on everyone by not supporting this effort.
    I think that their BIG problem is that as employees of a Gun Shop, they see the potential loss of revenue if OC became legal possibly causing them to see economic cutbacks by their employer. Especially if no trainig is required/mandated as in some of the current OC states. Maybe they just don't see the holes in their arguments. Just my .02.
    Possibly, but I figure Texas will opt for OC by license before completely doing away with the restriction. I just don't see them making that big of change all at once. And if this is the case, it will actually increase their business if anything.

    There are a lot of people that believe in carrying but disagree with open carry for whatever reason. Some feel so strongly that concealed carry is so much better that they are willing to fight against open carry. I have a friend that used to be that way. Last year I took him toNew Mexicowith me and while there it was very hot, so I chose to be comfortable and OC. At first he chastised me royally and carried his concealed,but after a day of sweating profusely under his vest he decided to giveOC a try. That was all it took. Like me, hestill prefers to conceal when practical, but he has changed his overall view andnow supports OC laws. Old dogs can learn new tricks, it just take some of them a little longer.

    Doc

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    Possibly, but I figure Texas will opt for OC by license before completely doing away with the restriction. I just don't see them making that big of change all at once. And if this is the case, it will actually increase their business if anything.



    Exactly. Folks who still live under the impression that guns are somehow taboo, or still view them through the stigmatism created by pop culture, need to see people carrying pistols, in a peaceful and responsible manner. After the stigma gets peeled away, those folks who are inclined to carry and no longer fear being unpopular or whatever, will be buying guns and ammo. I also agree that there will be licensing requirements. I can accept that. Just as the left has incermentally infringed on our rights, we must get them back, piece by piece. I also think it may be in our best interests to have mandatory training first, until it becomes a mainstream part of culture again. After that, it will be "common sence", and "Vermont carry laws"will be easy to pass.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    What do you want to bet that Mr. Cheadle and the other employees at Guns Galore open carry at work? If they don't, they're rare as Texas gun stores go.

    I bet they don't think a thing about it, even though it's technically illegal for them to do so.


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    KBCraig wrote:
    What do you want to bet that Mr. Cheadle and the other employees at Guns Galore open carry at work? If they don't, they're rare as Texas gun stores go.

    I bet they don't think a thing about it, even though it's technically illegal for them to do so.
    I would bet you are right about the open carry in the store,however, the store is actually considered private property, thus, it is legal for the owner andanyone he personally authorizes, to open carry on the property. This is why so many places do so. I even know a few jewelery stores and other establishments that practice open carry as a deterrent and safety measure.

    But I agree that you are probably right about them doing so at work and not seeing the double standard they are practicing in doing so. Then again, if they are strong believers in the idea that concealed carry give you an advantage, they may all carry concealed there. It would be interesting to find out, wouldn't it.

    Doc

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    DocNTexas wrote:
    I would bet you are right about the open carry in the store,however, the store is actually considered private property, thus, it is legal for the owner andanyone he personally authorizes, to open carry on the property.
    What is the code section on this privilege?

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    Mike wrote:
    DocNTexas wrote:
    I would bet you are right about the open carry in the store,however, the store is actually considered private property, thus, it is legal for the owner andanyone he personally authorizes, to open carry on the property.
    What is the code section on this privilege?

    Mike,

    I assume you are referring to the statute concerning the carry of the firearm and not questioning the fact that a private business is considered private property.

    As with most states, Texas law does not provide privileges or say what IS legal, it defines what is not legal. The statute prohibiting the carry of a handgun (PC 46.02)expressly states where the law does not apply.

    § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

    (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;

    As the owner or person in control ofsaid property, I can extend any privilege of use to anyone I choose to the extent of my property with the assumption of liability for their actions.

    Texas law does not differentiate between the mode of carry in its prohibition, it merely prohibits the carry of a handgun, with certain exceptions. For example, in the case of CCW,it merely states that a person who possess a CHL is exempt under this statute, meaning that no matter how they carry open of concealed, they are not guilty of violating 46.02. However, if they carry openly, they violate a different statute, PC 46.03. The same is true for the above exemption, in that, the mode of carry does not matter. If you are carrying on the property as the owner or controlling party or with permission of that person, you are not in violation of 46.02.

    Doc


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    DocNTexas wrote:
    § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

    (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;

    As the owner or person in control ofsaid property, I can extend any privilege of use to anyone I choose to the extent of my property with the assumption of liability for their actions.
    Why? What authority can you cite to allow you to extend your privilege to carry?

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    Mike wrote:
    DocNTexas wrote:
    § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

    (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;

    As the owner or person in control ofsaid property, I can extend any privilege of use to anyone I choose to the extent of my property with the assumption of liability for their actions.
    Why? What authority can you cite to allow you to extend your privilege to carry?
    I have read in the code that the owner or controller of the premises can allow open carry. If I remember right it had to be specifically allowed by a written policy manual. I have looked for that in the code again and have not yet found it.

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    Fatherof9 wrote:
    Why? What authority can you cite to allow you to extend your privilege to carry?
    I have read in the code that the owner or controller of the premises can allow open carry. If I remember right it had to be specifically allowed by a written policy manual. I have looked for that in the code again and have not yet found it.
    Maybe it is not in the code, and not even in case law - if you can find the authority, let us know - right now I am going to have to assume it is unlawful to open carry in any public place in Texas, even if invited to do so by owner.

    we would like to hold some open carry rallies in Texas on private property - but not till it can be saeen to be lawful.

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    Mike wrote:
    DocNTexas wrote:
    § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

    (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;

    As the owner or person in control ofsaid property, I can extend any privilege of use to anyone I choose to the extent of my property with the assumption of liability for their actions.
    Why? What authority can you cite to allow you to extend your privilege to carry?
    Mike,

    The rights of the property owner have long been upheld this way. I can authorize anyone I wish to watch out for my interest on my property. I can also rent, lease or givecontrol of my property to another and through such actionthat person is considered to have control of that property and is covered under the premises underthe person'scontrol portion of the law.

    This fact is expressly upheld as to the application of 46.02 to businesses and employees in section 46.15 Nonapplicability part (B)(2), which states:

    (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
    (2) is on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision (5);


    In other words, the only way an employee is NOT considered exempt from 46.02 by this section is if that person is 1) an employee, and 2) their main job function is to provide security to protect persons or property. In the case of a gun counter employee,their main job function is to provide sales assistance (not security), thus, they are still considered exempt from the application of 46.02 under this section.

    Likewise, if the person is not an employee, i.e. just a person I allow on my property and allow to carry while there, they too are exempt from 46.02 under this section. In short, the only person not exempt from the application of 46.02 by 46.15(B)(2) is a person paid to provide security services to the facility as their primary duty. All other persons are exempt as being on premises under their control by the authorization of the person in control of the property.

    Doc

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    Mike wrote:
    Fatherof9 wrote:
    Why? What authority can you cite to allow you to extend your privilege to carry?
    I have read in the code that the owner or controller of the premises can allow open carry. If I remember right it had to be specifically allowed by a written policy manual. I have looked for that in the code again and have not yet found it.
    Maybe it is not in the code, and not even in case law - if you can find the authority, let us know - right now I am going to have to assume it is unlawful to open carry in any public place in Texas, even if invited to do so by owner.

    we would like to hold some open carry rallies in Texas on private property - but not till it can be saeen to be lawful.


    Open carry rallies are perfectly legal as long as they are held on private property or in a leased or rented building where the carry is contained in the controlled area. This is no different than holding a gun show and allowing those attending to carry openly or the dealers to carry to protect their interests. All that is required is that it be in a controlled use area.


    As the previous poster pointed out, it is an almost universal practice for every employee in a gun shop here in Texas to be open carrying (or insome cases, concealed carrying) a handgun.If it were not legal I assure you it would not be happening in the DFW or Houston areas as it does.

    Doc



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    DocNTexas wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    DocNTexas wrote:
    § 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

    (1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control;

    As the owner or person in control ofsaid property, I can extend any privilege of use to anyone I choose to the extent of my property with the assumption of liability for their actions.
    Why? What authority can you cite to allow you to extend your privilege to carry?
    Mike,

    The rights of the property owner have long been upheld this way. I can authorize anyone I wish to watch out for my interest on my property. I can also rent, lease or givecontrol of my property to another and through such actionthat person is considered to have control of that property and is covered under the premises underthe person'scontrol portion of the law.

    This fact is expressly upheld as to the application of 46.02 to businesses and employees in section 46.15 Nonapplicability part (B)(2), which states:

    (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
    (2) is on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision (5);


    In other words, the only way an employee is NOT considered exempt from 46.02 by this section is if that person is 1) an employee, and 2) their main job function is to provide security to protect persons or property. In the case of a gun counter employee,their main job function is to provide sales assistance (not security), thus, they are still considered exempt from the application of 46.02 under this section.

    Likewise, if the person is not an employee, i.e. just a person I allow on my property and allow to carry while there, they too are exempt from 46.02 under this section. In short, the only person not exempt from the application of 46.02 by 46.15(B)(2) is a person paid to provide security services to the facility as their primary duty. All other persons are exempt as being on premises under their control by the authorization of the person in control of the property.

    Doc
    The statute you cite clearly stands for the opposite of what your state as to non-owners who are not employees. The fact that the statute sets forth an employee exception would most likley be read under standard rules of statutory construction to ban others from carrying handguns on private property.

    You need to find an authority to back up your claim.

  25. #25
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    Nov 2007
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    Mike wrote:
    The statute you cite clearly stands for the opposite of what your state as to non-owners who are not employees. The fact that the statute sets forth an employee exception would most likley be read under standard rules of statutory construction to ban others from carrying handguns on private property.

    You need to find an authority to back up your claim.
    No mike, read it again...carefully.

    It states that EXCEPT for an employee who is a paid security gaurd.

    Doc



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