View Poll Results: Which 9mm should I look into most?

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  • Taurus 24/7 Pro

    6 30.00%
  • S&W Sigma

    2 10.00%
  • Sig Sauer P6 (225)

    12 60.00%
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Thread: Help choosing a nice, frist gun....

  1. #1
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    Looking at buying my first handgun. I don't want to spend $26 per rental of each + range fees just try them out, when that would be perfectly good money towards the gun. Decided against a Hi-Point C9. The Taurus and Sigma would be new, and the P6 (225) would be one of the used West Germany imported police issue for around $275 in VG condition. All would be 9mm. Any experience/ reviews on these would be awesome.

    -Matt

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    You know I don't think your getting a good deal on the Sig.

    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=83452

    According to that link I'd could get one too for around that price. :shock:

    Something fishy going on there ..... I thought SIG's were HIGH priced pistols.



    Eitherway, I don't really like any of the Gun Makers you've listed.

    But Taurus has a Great Warranty on their pistols. No matter how many hands it changes. I've also been hearing more and more good things about how Tuarus has stepped up their game in Gun Quality.

    Here's an article from a guy who owns and shoots the very same pistols you have listed.

    http://www.sportscomet.com/Hunting/185941.htm

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    Dustin wrote:
    You know I don't think your getting a good deal on the Sig.

    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=83452

    According to that link I'd could get one too for around that price. :shock:

    Something fishy going on there ..... I thought SIG's were HIGH priced pistols.



    Eitherway, I don't really like any of the Gun Makers you've listed.

    But Taurus has a Great Warranty on their pistols. No matter how many hands it changes. I've also been hearing more and more good things about how Tuarus has stepped up their game in Gun Quality.

    Here's an article from a guy who owns and shoots the very same pistols you have listed.

    http://www.sportscomet.com/Hunting/185941.htm
    I think that's a good deal on the Sig. Most Sigs retail upwards of $900 new. I am aware that several sites are selling these used ones for around $275 though. They're just used German Police-issued and they're backordered. Thanks for the opinion though, and the article really helps.

  4. #4
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    I'd like to recommend the Steoger/Cougar 8000. It is a Beretta, but since it is made in Turkey now it cost less. Under $400.00, holds 15 & 1 shoots real nice too.

    Here's a picture

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    I have a West German P228 I love, bought used with little wear or use and which, as I understand, is the double stack (13+1) version of the P225 (8+1), the two being identical in size and weight excepting the P228 is slightly wider to accomodate the double stack. Haven't shot the P225, but I have shot a few other P series and liked them all. It is also my understanding that performance of the P228 is similar to the P225 so I'll give you my experience FWIW.

    The only downside I have seen on my P228 is that the slide, which is their standard matte finish, is susceptible to sweat staining and even light surface rust (easily removed) which is typical. They also have a K-kote finish that is much more corrosion/moisture resistant so it just depends on what finish the slide has. There may be other finishes of which I am not aware. Besides that, I have no complaints or problems with it. It has always gone bang when I want it to, never when I don't. Not a single FTF or FTE in 2k+ rounds. It is my fiancee's favorite of my small collection as it has little recoil and quickly comes back on target. It is very accurate at self-defense ranges and supposedly accurate to 100 yds (although I do not know from experience as I would be lucky to hit the barn at that range).

    Mine had hogue rubber grips on it when I bought it. I replaced them with factory plastic grips which I prefer for urban conditions Lots of people comment on the factory screws coming loose or being too soft to tighten down well. I purchased a set of hex head screws for it based up on this, but have never installed them as I have had no issues with the factory flat head screws.

    I especially like the factory sights which are sort of like the heinie straight 8s. Wide notch at the back with a white square, large white dot at the front. Very quick to acquire, easy to use with both eyes open, easy to re-acquire after the shot, but useless in the dark. I much prefer them to the 3-dot XD sights and can acquire/re-acquire the target much more quickly with the Sig's sights.

    Hope that is of some use. From what I can gather, the info should pretty much all translate to the P225.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    I have the Sig. Shoots very nice! Excellent for a concealed carry piece as well with its small size, the decocker and the first shot being double action.

    If you're just going to plink, I would also suggest Hi-Points. Low maintenance, low price, awesome customer service (Lifetime no questions warrenty), and probably the best bang for the buck gun you can get. Large for concealed carry, but will do fine for open carry.

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    holeinhead wrote:
    I have the Sig. Shoots very nice! Excellent for a concealed carry piece as well with its small size, the decocker and the first shot being double action.

    If you're just going to plink, I would also suggest Hi-Points. Low maintenance, low price, awesome customer service (Lifetime no questions warrenty), and probably the best bang for the buck gun you can get. Large for concealed carry, but will do fine for open carry.
    The Hi-Point was actually the first gun I started considering. Then I read mixed reviews and don't want to take a chance, so I figured I'd spend a little more on one of the guns listed. The gun will be mainly used for plinking, but I will most certainly have it loaded with JHPs for defense when not at the range. I'm not against Hi-Point, I just want something more reliable as my first and only (at the time) gun. Tweaking the mag. clips and polishing the feed ramp right out the box is something I don't want to deal with.

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    I second the call for the Sig, or the Beretta, out of the guns mentioned thus far.

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    That's not a bad price on the Sig. I'll be picking up my P6 today. I went in with my friend and split shipping with him and the dealer gave us a discount on transfer since we bought multiple pieces. It'll be $290 out the door including shipping and the ffl transfer. Everything I've heard has been good about the Sigs. Some have said that there are a few that have problems with HP bullets though, but apparently the barrel of the commercial p225 will fix that as the angle of the feed ramp is easier on HP bullets.

    The P6 will be coming with 2 mags, a leather holster and a cleaning kit.

  10. #10
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    Although Sigmas have supposedly improved, I would never recommend one.

    I own a Taurus (though not a 24/7). The ergos are good, the quality is OK (not great).

    Buying a used Sig might be a good deal. Definitely the highest-quality out of the box of the three you listed,but it's used--you won't know what you're getting 'til you've got it

    In your price range (<$400), I would recommend considering the Bersa Thunder9 (a totally different animal than the .380 Thunder) as well. The grip is pretty large--good if you have big hands, bad if you don't. Also, CDNN has new Charles Daly ZDAs on clearance for $290. These are a re-badged Zastava Z05, which is a near-clone of a Sig P226. Daly no longer handles them; EAA is importingan updated version(Z99) as the "Zastava EZ."
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    +1 for Sig brand...

    If you have the money, I would suggest at least stepping up to a CPO Sig. They have them in many different models (226, 228, 229, 220), and they go through the Sig company when they get checked out. That means any part that is found to be worn down is replaced with new parts.

    They also back them up with a warranty. You can get them for 400-500 rather easily, and sometimes for less. Than you can even move up to 500-600 and get some new sigs (try checking budsgunshop.com)

  12. #12
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    Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys. I'm trying to read alot about the different guns mentioned, and I appreciate all the feedback.

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    First I will deal with your choices to date, then offer my response:

    tarus 24/7- decent gun, but not an established track record of quality (though they do have a lifetime warranty) Tough to find holsters and other OEM items.

    S&W Sigma, this is the step, bastard red headed child of S&W behind the SW99 and the new M& P series. Early models were universally considered to be POS. Newer models have a better reputation. More than one PD went to them because they were the same company that made their revolvers when PDs started changing over to pistols.

    Many of those same departments soon went to Glock, Sig and other weapons.



    Sig 225/P6. A very reliable and well built weapon though extra mags are hard to come buy with the latest release of German Police turn ins. My opinion, it is also harder to shoot a weapon well when you have to learn to manage two distinct trigger pulls i.e the long 9-14 lb first double action pull, followed by a short 4 -8lb single action pull. This is compounded by the remembering to use the decocker which lowers the hammer on the sig as well.



    If I were looking at a first pistol, I would be looking very hard at one of three

    1. They are all polymer lowered

    2. They all have triggers that feel the same every time you pull the trigger

    3. They all have reviewed well by multiple end users

    A. Glock 19

    B. Springfield XD

    C. Smith and Wesson M&P.

    In the interest of full disclosure I am very Glock oriented as my prior posts have indicated. Having said that there was no XD or M&P on the market when I started shooting pistols. I think the xd has issues re the grip safety (it must be fully depressed to run the slide)and the lack of available factory parts. Having said that,I know many people who switched from glock toxd because the xd feels very good in the hand. Many hard core 1911 shooters think if you are going to shoot a plastic gun, the xd is the one given how it sits in the hand relative to a 1911. XD mags fall free are are widely available. Moreover the xd in .45 is absolutely slimmer than a glock.45.

    If I were a newbie today, I would give a real hard look at the M&P because:

    i. It was originally engineered in .40 caliber such that it should stand up to the hottest of 9mm ammo all day long

    ii. It has three diffrent sized removeable backstraps to fit a wide variety of hands

    iii. It has a metal magazine which easily falls free.

    I would make sure I got one that did not have the key lock or the magazine safety.



    YMMV

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    dojpros wrote:
    First I will deal with your choices to date, then offer my response:

    tarus 24/7- decent gun, but not an established track record of quality (though they do have a lifetime warranty) Tough to find holsters and other OEM items.

    S&W Sigma, this is the step, bastard red headed child of S&W behind the SW99 and the new M& P series. Early models were universally considered to be POS. Newer models have a better reputation. More than one PD went to them because they were the same company that made their revolvers when PDs started changing over to pistols.

    Many of those same departments soon went to Glock, Sig and other weapons.



    Sig 225/P6. A very reliable and well built weapon though extra mags are hard to come buy with the latest release of German Police turn ins. My opinion, it is also harder to shoot a weapon well when you have to learn to manage two distinct trigger pulls i.e the long 9-14 lb first double action pull, followed by a short 4 -8lb single action pull. This is compounded by the remembering to use the decocker which lowers the hammer on the sig as well.



    If I were looking at a first pistol, I would be looking very hard at one of three

    1. They are all polymer lowered

    2. They all have triggers that feel the same every time you pull the trigger

    3. They all have reviewed well by multiple end users

    A. Glock 19

    B. Springfield XD

    C. Smith and Wesson M&P.

    In the interest of full disclosure I am very Glock oriented as my prior posts have indicated. Having said that there was no XD or M&P on the market when I started shooting pistols. I think the xd has issues re the grip safety (it must be fully depressed to run the slide)and the lack of available factory parts. Having said that,I know many people who switched from glock toxd because the xd feels very good in the hand. Many hard core 1911 shooters think if you are going to shoot a plastic gun, the xd is the one given how it sits in the hand relative to a 1911. XD mags fall free are are widely available. Moreover the xd in .45 is absolutely slimmer than a glock.45.

    If I were a newbie today, I would give a real hard look at the M&P because:

    i. It was originally engineered in .40 caliber such that it should stand up to the hottest of 9mm ammo all day long

    ii. It has three diffrent sized removeable backstraps to fit a wide variety of hands

    iii. It has a metal magazine which easily falls free.

    I would make sure I got one that did not have the key lock or the magazine safety.



    YMMV

    This is good advice to follow.

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    The guns I listed were because I'm on a fixed budget, but didn't want to go as inexpensive as a Hi-Point. I just can't justify the extra $200 at this time, especially for a first gun going from looking at a $350 Taurus to a roughly $550 M&P, Glock, or Springfield.

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    dojpros - great advice!! Also well balanced, IMO.

    Phonetic Diabetic (cool SN): I have taught 3 women to shoot on my Sig P228 and they all were shooting it fairly accurately and able to field strip it and handle it properly by the end of the day. I don't say that to diminish dojpros advice but rather to limit it to the choices given. Training to use the decocker is IMO just like training to use a 1911 safety - muscle memory and habit.

    The DA/SA trigger pull differences on the Sig can be easily learned if you are willing to put in the dry fire trigger time. If you are not willing to put forth such effort it may take some time to get used to as dojpros discussed.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    dojpros - great advice!! Also well balanced, IMO.

    Phonetic Diabetic (cool SN): I have taught 3 women to shoot on my Sig P228 and they all were shooting it fairly accurately and able to field strip it and handle it properly by the end of the day. I don't say that to diminish dojpros advice but rather to limit it to the choices given. Training to use the decocker is IMO just like training to use a 1911 safety - muscle memory and habit.

    The DA/SA trigger pull differences on the Sig can be easily learned if you are willing to put in the dry fire trigger time. If you are not willing to put forth such effort it may take some time to get used to as dojpros discussed.
    I'm definitely willing to put in the dry fire trigger time, especially in the beginning, as I will be excited with my new "toy". I'm just more concerned with buying a used one. If there's a problem with it, will Sig honor their warranty? Do they offer a lifetime owner (not purchaser) warranty?

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    PD

    I would offer the following, if price is really driving the train, I would consider a used glock.The availability of clean used glocks in 9mm and a deep discount program for leo/gov/mil types on new glocks keeps the price under 400.00 for many used pistols. i.e. www.summitgunbroker.com.

    This tool you are buying is like anything else worth owning, buy quality, buy and cry just once. I sense that the gap between what you really want and what you think you can afford is but a few hundred dollars. Literally pennies a day over your gun carrying lifetime. There is a differance between settling and finding the intersection of quality and value. Don't settle.

    IMNSHO, It takes a whole lot longer to really learn how to shoot a da/sa pistol than one whose trigger pull is constant. A huge reason that xd/glock and the M&P are doing so well is that they are easier to learn to shoot well. Not that shooting competitors should be dictating to the OCW/CCW world, but it is interesting to note that the vast majority or the really premier shooters in the world are using weapons whose triggers feel the same for every pull. Food for thought.



  19. #19
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    dojpros wrote:
    PD

    I would offer the following, if price is really driving the train, I would consider a used glock.The availability of clean used glocks in 9mm and a deep discount program for leo/gov/mil types on new glocks keeps the price under 400.00 for many used pistols. i.e. http://www.summitgunbroker.com.

    This tool you are buying is like anything else worth owning, buy quality, buy and cry just once. I sense that the gap between what you really want and what you think you can afford is but a few hundred dollars. Literally pennies a day over your gun carrying lifetime. There is a differance between settling and finding the intersection of quality and value. Don't settle.

    IMNSHO, It takes a whole lot longer to really learn how to shoot a da/sa pistol than one whose trigger pull is constant. A huge reason that xd/glock and the M&P are doing so well is that they are easier to learn to shoot well. Not that shooting competitors should be dictating to the OCW/CCW world, but it is interesting to note that the vast majority or the really premier shooters in the world are using weapons whose triggers feel the same for every pull. Food for thought.

    Wow, I see some incredible deals on used Glocks. Thanks for the link!

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    deepdiver wrote:
    dojpros - great advice!! Also well balanced, IMO.

    Phonetic Diabetic (cool SN): I have taught 3 women to shoot on my Sig P228 and they all were shooting it fairly accurately and able to field strip it and handle it properly by the end of the day. I don't say that to diminish dojpros advice but rather to limit it to the choices given. Training to use the decocker is IMO just like training to use a 1911 safety - muscle memory and habit.

    The DA/SA trigger pull differences on the Sig can be easily learned if you are willing to put in the dry fire trigger time. If you are not willing to put forth such effort it may take some time to get used to as dojpros discussed.
    I agree on the training part of it. I'm a 1911 guy and I also have an XD. Both guns have the same trigger pull for every shot. I just got a Sig P6 yesterday and when I first tried the DA pull, it was very difficult while I liked the SA pull better. The more I played with the DA though the better I got with it. Decocker was wierd but again I got used to it after playing with it for a while. This is my first DA/SA gun to own, I 've shot them before though. I doubt it'll replace my EMP as my CC weapon, but it will be a fun range toy.

    Sig has a refurbishment plan for used SIGs that are very economical if you ask me: http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerServ...Price-List.pdf

    Total cost for my P6 was $290 including shipping and FFL transfer fee. It came with 2 magazines, a cardboard box, cleaning kit, OC duty holster with thumb brake, and 3 magazine carriers (1 with a snap cover and 2 open top). It definitely shows holster wear but after cleaning and disassembling, the gun looks like it wasn't shot much at all. I was suprised to see that the frame rails go the length of the frame. Field stripping is a piece of cake. For another $20, I could have had it refinished but I opted against that. I like the look of the wear on it and it gives it some character.

    I'm hoping to hit the range this week to finally try it out. Oh and before I forget, mine came from dansammo.com. I can get apic or two if you're interested.

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    eyesopened wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    dojpros - great advice!! Also well balanced, IMO.

    Phonetic Diabetic (cool SN): I have taught 3 women to shoot on my Sig P228 and they all were shooting it fairly accurately and able to field strip it and handle it properly by the end of the day. I don't say that to diminish dojpros advice but rather to limit it to the choices given. Training to use the decocker is IMO just like training to use a 1911 safety - muscle memory and habit.

    The DA/SA trigger pull differences on the Sig can be easily learned if you are willing to put in the dry fire trigger time. If you are not willing to put forth such effort it may take some time to get used to as dojpros discussed.
    I agree on the training part of it. I'm a 1911 guy and I also have an XD. Both guns have the same trigger pull for every shot. I just got a Sig P6 yesterday and when I first tried the DA pull, it was very difficult while I liked the SA pull better. The more I played with the DA though the better I got with it. Decocker was wierd but again I got used to it after playing with it for a while. This is my first DA/SA gun to own, I 've shot them before though. I doubt it'll replace my EMP as my CC weapon, but it will be a fun range toy.

    Sig has a refurbishment plan for used SIGs that are very economical if you ask me: http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerServ...Price-List.pdf

    Total cost for my P6 was $290 including shipping and FFL transfer fee. It came with 2 magazines, a cardboard box, cleaning kit, OC duty holster with thumb brake, and 3 magazine carriers (1 with a snap cover and 2 open top). It definitely shows holster wear but after cleaning and disassembling, the gun looks like it wasn't shot much at all. I was suprised to see that the frame rails go the length of the frame. Field stripping is a piece of cake. For another $20, I could have had it refinished but I opted against that. I like the look of the wear on it and it gives it some character.

    I'm hoping to hit the range this week to finally try it out. Oh and before I forget, mine came from dansammo.com. I can get apic or two if you're interested.
    I'd love pics. Funny story.....I actually went a little bid-happy on Gun Broker. Wasn't paying attention for a minute and I don't know where my head was. I thought I was bidding on a 9mm, but bid on a Walther P22 instead and won the damn thing. I guess I'll see what I can trade it in on once it gets here.

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    Phonetic Diabetic wrote:
    I'd love pics. Funny story.....I actually went a little bid-happy on Gun Broker. Wasn't paying attention for a minute and I don't know where my head was. I thought I was bidding on a 9mm, but bid on a Walther P22 instead and won the damn thing. I guess I'll see what I can trade it in on once it gets here.
    Well you ended up with a really fun plinker

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    David.Car wrote:
    Phonetic Diabetic wrote:
    I'd love pics. Funny story.....I actually went a little bid-happy on Gun Broker. Wasn't paying attention for a minute and I don't know where my head was. I thought I was bidding on a 9mm, but bid on a Walther P22 instead and won the damn thing. I guess I'll see what I can trade it in on once it gets here.
    Well you ended up with a really fun plinker
    As much as I realize that as a fact, this is kind of a cost issue. I can't afford to drop $225+ on a plinker, and get the 9mm or .40 I wanted to home defense. When I get the Walther, I'll probably shoot a brick through it for fun and then see what a dealer can offer me as far as a trade goes.

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    Look I am a newly wed, we rent from a tri-plex, my wife goes to college and works and I have a full time job.

    Money cant be blown.

    I bought the Taurus 24/7 9mm Blue with 17+1 Capacity

    I really like mine. If you research the background of Taurus and how they started it is pretty neat.

    Beretta left Brazil, when they did they left behind their weapon factory tools and all! Taurus was a manufacturing company of other items (dont recall what)... so they started making weapons with Beretta equipment.

    The 24/7 PRO models are popular and I have heard nothing but good from those who own them, sell them, and what I have read in reviews.

    And I own one... my boss got me hooked on the Taurus year and a half ago. So, I am now a proud owner.

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    Dr.Coy wrote:
    Look I am a newly wed, we rent from a tri-plex, my wife goes to college and works and I have a full time job.

    Money cant be blown.

    I bought the Taurus 24/7 9mm Blue with 17+1 Capacity

    I really like mine. If you research the background of Taurus and how they started it is pretty neat.

    Beretta left Brazil, when they did they left behind their weapon factory tools and all! Taurus was a manufacturing company of other items (dont recall what)... so they started making weapons with Beretta equipment.

    The 24/7 PRO models are popular and I have heard nothing but good from those who own them, sell them, and what I have read in reviews.

    And I own one... my boss got me hooked on the Taurus year and a half ago. So, I am now a proud owner.
    That's very reassuring. I'm weary of buying used, and I like how the Taurus gives good quality at an affordable price. I'm about to go to a shop to see if I can use his FFL to ship my P22 to. Then I'll see what he has.

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