Wow, thanks for all your thoughtful responses. I really appreciate them, although I think this has just generated more questions and an even longer email than the first! First, let me clarify something that I said in my original post about the knife thing. While I have plenty of big knives (my SOG Desert Dagger being my favey) I carry them open, and typically on my harness when I'm camping, backpacking, etc. Rereading what I typed I can see where I wasn't clear. I wasn't meaning to say that I wanted to carry one of my knives concealed. What I was trying to tell the police officer was that I was under the impression that I have a concealed handgun permit (and in fact, my permit says "Concealed Handgun Permit" verbatim) not a concealed weapon permit. The distinction I was trying to make was that this permit doesn't allow me to grab one of my big knives and throw it under my jacket and carry it concealed legally. Nor does it probably allow me to grab a handful of throwing stars or any other sort of "weapon" besides a handgun (with the exception of the 3.5" knife as Anubis mentioned...in KY we lay the blade across the forward palm of an open hand and if it extends past it it's illegal to carry concealed). I did get my CCW from boulder sherriff's but it does distinctly say "Concealed Handgun Permit" (I've included a pic of it in this post since there seems to be some confusion about it saying "weapon" on it. I got my CCW the year when all the renewals were up for the people who got their CCW's in 2003, so I wonder if my permit reflects some new verbage on the card??) and my CCW class instructor seemed pretty adamant that the permit is for a handgun, not a shotgun, M4 shorty, or my sexy, parkerized, "fits-perfectly-in-your-hand-like-your-own-<deleted so i don't get banned>" SOG desert dagger. While I do love the proficiency, effectiveness, and personal nature of a blade, the chance of me bringing a knife to a gunfight is - in the words of my grandpa (who was also a US Marine in WWII) - "there's about as much of a chance of that as stickin' hot butter up a wildcat's a$$ with a handful o' hangnails."
So, let me see if I'm assimilating all your guys comments correctly here. The state of CO preempts local municipalities regarding CC because there are laws explicitly defining CC, but it is sketchy regarding OC because OC is not explicitly provided for in the law? Is it correct to say that the state cannot technically preempt local municipalities regarding OC because of this? Does this mean that local municipalities may restrict OC, like Denver does? If I didn't have a CCW would I be required to follow the Boulder OC statutes (or more to the point, say I run out with a pocketful of change in some shorts and i throw a pistol on my side without my wallet, such that I shouldn't be covered under CC laws since I'm not carrying my permit and I'm OC'ing anyway....would I then be required to follow Boulder's "no loaded handgun in the open" statutes?)?
Is it because I have a CCW that when I transition from CC to OC (or just OC) that the Boulder regulations regarding no loaded firearms in the open doesn't apply to me, even though I am OC'ing? I'm confused about how the state can preempt municipalities re: OC when they don't explicitly provide laws for OC. What happens if/when I run into that police officer out on pearl street while I'm OC and he attempts to cite/charge me for having a loaded weapon? It would ruin my day to have my sidearm seized, even if I would get it back months later....
On a similar note, say I'm OC in, oh I dunno, maybe Safeway or someplace, and the manager asks me to remove my sidearm to my vehicle...I then say "oh" and pull my shirt up and back over my pistol to conceal it. Does he have any legal leg to stand on in forcing me to leave? I wish the law were stricter in this matter, requiring any establishment not wanting guns on premise to have signs up, not just at the whim of someone working there asking you to leave. This way there's no ambiguity on our boundaries when OC'ing, and if someone pulls that crap asking us to leave while we're OC, we can simply offer to buy them a nice big cup of ****. Further, who has that authority to ask you to remove your weapon? I know personal businesses can post signs advising no guns and I seem to understand that a manager can just capriciously, willy-nilly decide he doesn't want guns in his establishment even without posting by asking you to leave? But....at what point in that eschelon/hierarchy does the person have that authority? Can the bag boy at Safeway make me take my sidearm off or does it have to be a manager from corporate? What about the non-corporate shift manager at 2am? This is all very fuzzy to me and while I want to stay within the law, I am not happy to let some gun-fearing/hating jerkface enforce his beliefs on me because I am unclear on my protections under the law. I know you can let your feet do the walking, but honestly, that's inconvenient and unfair to us, especially if it's some wanker who just doesn't want me carrying. I am very unclear on who has what authority on this matter.
Now, to the CC without a CCW thing. The law allows CC without a permit in your personal conveyance, business, house...now, say for some reason I have left my CCW at home (or for those people who just don't have a CCW) and I'm in my vehicle with my sidearm on my hip under a jacket and I get pulled over. The officer asks me to step out of my vehicle. If I step out of my vehicle I believe I could technically be sited right then for illegal CC, but how does this get resolved? I tell the officer "Sir, I have a handgun on my right hip under my jacket. I want to comply with your orders but it is my understanding that when I leave my vehicle I will be illegally CC'ing." and he repeats "GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE!" What does a person do here? I think taking your jacket off in the vehicle or, god forbid, attempting to grab your handgun to remove it would have you in a situation in front of the business end of the officers handgun that we dont want to be in. I mention this because before I got my CO CCW I was in a situation very similar to this, except the officer did not ask me to leave my jeep, although I had run every scenario in my head I could think of between the time he left with my license/registration and the time he came back to cite me for "improper license plate display." I personally don't think he liked my "USMC Sniper: Spreading Democracy One Bullet At A Time" bumper sticker. :P
A question regarding CC on CU's campus. When first researching these laws I found several discrepencies that I believe exist still today that will probably continue to exist until clarified in the courts. I understand CC at CU is provided for in state CC law, but that the regents explicitly disallow it. Thanks for the links to that jcman. However, I believe CU is being incredibly disingenuous and deceitful here. Let me explain. I ran these statutes by a law *student* friend of mine as well as several other well-versed law-related persons when I decided to do grad school at CU and learned of this policy, for what that's worth. The 18-12-105.5 statute expressely forbids carrying a weapon (I'm only concerned about the handgun portion stated in d.5) on school, college, or university grounds UNLESS (1) you have a valid CCW AND (2) it is not expressly forbidden by 18-12-214(3).
(CAPITALIZATION is mine and i elided the sections that were irrelevant to our CCW discussion here)
18-12-105.5 Unlawfully carrying a weapon - unlawful possession of weapons - school, college, or university grounds.
(1) a person commits a class 6 felony if such person knowingly and unlawfully and without legal authority carries, brings, or has in such person's possession a deadly weapon as defined in section 18-1-901(3)(e) in or on the real estate and all improvements erected thereon of any PUBLIC OR PRIVATE ELEMENTARY, MIDDLE, JUNIOR HIGH, HIGH, OR VOCATIONAL SCHOOL OR ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE COLLEGE, UNIVERSITY, OR SEMINARY, except for the purpose of presenting an authorized public demonstration.....
(3)It shall not be an offense under this section if:
(a) THE WEAPON IS UNLOADED AND REMAINS INSIDE A MOTOR VEHICLE WHILE UPON THE REAL ESTATE OF ANY PUBLIC OR PRIVATE COLLEGE, UNIVERSITY, OR SEMINARY; or...
(d.5) The weapon involved was a HANDGUN and the person held a valid permit to carry a concealed handgun or a temporary emergency permit issued pursuant to part 2 of this article; except that it shall be an ofense under this section if the person was carrying a concealed handgun in violation of the provisions of section 18-12-214(3);
Note (3)(a) as I'll come back to it later. Ok, I have a valid CCW so the first part of the (d.5) exception covers me. Now, the second part that must be met to carry CC on CU's campus is 18-12-214(3) and this section pretty big and I encourage you to read all of it if you haven't, but the parts pertaining to us here states:
Again, capitalization was added by me. Please note here that this section does not exclude carrying onto universities, only elementary, high, junior, high, etc. So, I meet the valid CCW portion and, since I'll be at CU, I will not be "in violation of the provisions of section 18-12-214(3)" Therefore, as I understand it, it is completely legal for a valid CCW holder to carry CC on CU's campus BUT if you are a student or employee and are caught, you will probably be administratively punished thru expulsion if a student or being fired, if an employee. If you are on campus for something else, maybe to pick up your kids, or attend graduation, I believe you are fully within the law to carry CC with a valid CCW. The press release from CU:
18-12-214. Authority granted by permit - carrying restrictions.
(1)(a) A permit to carry a concealed HANDGUN authorized the permittee to carry a concealed handgun IN ALL AREAS OF THE STATE, EXCEPT AS SPECIFICALLY LIMITED BY THIS SECTION...
(2) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a place whre the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
(3) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun onto the real property, or into any improvements erected thereon, of a PUBLIC ELEMENTARY, MIDDLE, JUNIOR HIGH, OR HIGH SCHOOL; except that:
(a) A PERMITTEE MAY HAVE A HANDGUN ON THE REAL PROPERTY OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOL so long as the HANDGUN REMAINS IN HIS OR HER VEHICLE and, IF THE PERMITTEE IS NOT IN THE VEHICLE, THE HANDGUN IS IN A COMPARTMENT WITHIN THE VEHICLE AND THE VEHICLE IS LOCKED.
"Based on policy set forth by the University of Colorado Board of Regents and Colorado Revised Statute Title 18-12-105.5, it is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon or to possess a weapon while on the grounds of a CU campus."
is patently untrue, as we know you CAN possess the weapon in your vehicle at the least, and their statement makes it sound like it is illegal to CC there but I cannot find any grounds for their claim of it being "unlawful" but merely being against administrative policy. I stopped by CU's PD yesterday to get their take but couldn't find a single, breathing body. Seriously. I chuckled.
So correct me if I have my butt on my shoulders here. The discrepency I mentioned earlier is in the requirements for having the weapon in your vehicle on school grounds. 18-12-105.5 says the weapon must be in your vehicle (where in the vehicle? should the vehicle be locked?), while 18-12-214(a) says it must be in a compartment (whatever that is...glove box? trunk? gun case? isn't a purse a compartment?) within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked. I know this is pedantic, nit-picky stuff but one might think it important when being arrested for it.
Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions and for any further clarification or corrections of my misunderstandings you can provide. I'm still trying to wrap my head around state preemption as it relates to CC and OC, with and without a CCW, as well as how far we can push back when asked to remove our sidearm when we are OC'ing, who can ask us to remove our firearm (I've read the statutes that I *think* are applicable - see 18-12-214(5) and only provides for "private property owner, prvate tenant, private employer, or private business entity." of which I dont know where the Safeway bagboy or shift manager fits in), and what the real take on CU's CC legality is.
As always, thanks for reading and I will appreciate and look forward to your comments in this area.