Greetings, Salutations, Questions

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Hello all,
I've been lurking on the forums for a short while now and just took the step to register and participate since I've seen a really cool gun community and such good responses. I hope these questions haven't been covered ad nauseum...I apologize in advance for the length of this post

I'm relatively new to Boulder, formerly in the USMC, and starting grad school at CU. I just picked up my CO CCW since my KY one is no longer valid here with my CO residency and I stopped by the Boulder PD to get some clarifications on OC statutes/laws. It is my understanding that CO doesn't have brandishing laws but does have menacing and disturbing the peace laws (and Boulder has "flourishing" statutes) so I wanted to get an officer's interpretation of the CC -> OC transition, like if I was CC walking to my vehicle and took my jacket off before I got in, even though I had no intent to cause alarm, how would that be interpreted if someone saw and freaked out? I talked to two officers who gave me some information that I wanted to verify. First, when I mentioned i had a concealed handgun permit they asked what it was and said they issue concealed weapon permits here. I showed them my permit (that says "Concealed Handgun Permit") and said I understood my permit to allow me to carry a handgun concealed, but not any concealed weapon, like a 5" knife or something. They seemed surprised, which surprised me. Then they said the CC->OC transition would be covered by OC laws, which they advised me in Boulder proper requires me to have no ammunition in the handgun. I could have a loaded magazine, but it had to be separated from the handgun, which surprised me based on what I had read on these forums. They directed me to the 1981 Boulder Revised Code @ http://www.colocode.com/boulder2/index.htm .

Ok, so in the defenses section it covers the typical "home, conveyance, business" exceptions for having a loaded firearm and here for concealed carry:
I couldn't find, however, anything giving allowance for loaded firearms OC here in Boulder. So, what these officers (and I'm sorry, I didn't get their names...I caught them at the PD right at 5pm as they were leaving..the PD on the Hill) were saying was that when i took off my jacket I would have to unload my weapon if I continued to OC, which brings up another problem of handling a pistol in public, which seems like a catch-22. Can anyone verify this or tell me if I'm missing something obvious here? I've OC'd numerous times since I've moved here, as in KY anyone without a gun is looked at weird, which is kinda opposite of what I'm seeing here! I understand that CC is specifically covered by Part 2, 18-12-2* statutes but that OC is allowed in CO simply because it hasn't been explicitly criminalized and actions here may be covered (along with use of deadly force) under the 18-1-7* revised statutes.

Please set me straight if I'm way off base here as I am far from being a lawyer....I'm a stranger in a strange land and I'm just trying to wrap my head around these inconsistencies and be a diligent, responsible handgun owner. Oh, in looking at these statutes I also found out that my dog has to get a license here in Boulder, which is sorta foreign to me. I mean, my dog doesn't even own a car...

Well, I had a couple other questions and an OC story that happened to me over the weekend but since this post is already obscenely long I'll save them for a possible other post. Thanks if you made it this far and for any advice and clarification you can provide!

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OK, first off, welcome to the forums and what a great starting post!!!

Second, I AM NOT A LAWYER!!!

Good work on your part in researching this issue!!!

Your first section:

5-8-8 Possession of Loaded Firearms. (a) Except as set forth in this chapter, no person shall possess a loaded firearm or a loaded gas or mechanically operated gun.
(b) For the purposes of this section, a firearm is loaded if there is a projectile, with charge,22 in the chamber, in the cylinder, or in the clip in the firearm.
(c) A peace officer shall not undertake an arrest under this section without first giving due consideration to the city's burden of proof with regard to the affirmative defenses set forth in section 5-8-22, "Defenses," B.R.C. 1981.

If we continue to read the affirmative defenses in section 5-8-22, we find this:

5-8-22 Defenses.
(a) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating sections 5-8-3, "Discharge of Firearms," 5-8-4, "Possessing and Discharging Firearm or Bow in Park or Open Space," 5-8-5, "Negligently Shooting Bow or Slingshot," 5-8-6, "Aiming Weapon at Another," 5-8-7, "Flourishing Deadly Weapon in Alarming Manner," and 5-8-8, "Possession of Loaded Firearms," B.R.C. 1981, that the defendant was:
(1) Reasonably engaged in lawful self-defense under the statutes of the State of Colorado; or
(2) Reasonably exercising the right to keep and bear arms in defense of the defendant's or another's home, person, and property, or in aid of the civil power when legally thereto summoned.

And then this a bit further down:

(c) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating sections 5-8-8, "Possession of Loaded Firearms," 5-8-9, "Carrying a Concealed Weapon," and 5-8-11, "Possessing Firearm While Intoxicated," B.R.C. 1981, that the defendant was:
(1) In the defendant's own dwelling or place of business or on property owned or under the defendant's control at the time; or
(2) In a private automobile or other private means of conveyance at the time and was carrying the weapon for lawful protection of the defendant's or another's person or property while traveling; or29
(3) Charged with carrying a knife that was a hunting or fishing knife carried by the defendant for sport use.
(d) It is a specific defense to a charge of violating sections 5-8-8, "Possession of Loaded Firearms," and 5-8-9, "Carrying a Concealed Weapon," B.R.C. 1981, that the defendant was carrying the weapon pursuant to a concealed weapons permit valid under the statutes of the State of Colorado.

As I read it, you have affirmative defense in OCing a loaded sidearm in sections 5-8-22 (a)(2), sections 5-8-22(c)(1)and(2), and section 5-8-22(d)
It is rather misleading tho. I think (once again, IANAL) that they don't want felons OCing a sidearm. Since you are now in possession of a valid Colorado CCW, You should be able to carry any way you wish, since there's no rule in CCW law stating that you HAVE to carry concealed.
As for the knife, lose it. No one in their right mind brings a knife to a gunfight...except Croc Dundee...:lol: Keep a good pocketknife and you'll be fine in that regard.

If you really want to pursue this, I'd call the Boulder County DA's office. LEO's aren't really that well versed in the law (as they've proved).
And if the po-po hassles ya, throw a donut in the opposite direction and skeedaddle!!!:celebrate

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Welcome to the forum. No city may make it's own laws in Colorado due to complete state preemption. Concealed carry law is the same everywhere in the state. Not carrying loaded is BS. The only place you cannot open carry is Denver County, Denver due to a grandfather clause. It is not illegal anywhere else in the state, loaded or otherwise. Remember, there is no law allowing OC, simply no law prohibiting it, save Denver County. That being the case, cops have no clue unless they work for an enlightened department, like here in El Paso County. Don't worry about brandishing unless you plan on waving your gun around. I generally carry concealed, but don't hesitate to OC. Of course, I'm in the Springs which is gun friendly all the way. Boulder thinks it's Cambridge, MA. You were a Jarhead so you should know that knives are only good for slitting the throats of the wounded...:lol:

Your dog doesn't need a license unless he plans to concealed carry...

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I'll add to this as well, since you're attending CU. The Regents have decided to not allow CC on any of the CU campuses:

http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2007/166.html

You are allowed to carry in your personal vehicle, even onto campus (2-b):

http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2bbcb/2f9e5/2fa0d/2fa5b?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm&2.0

And I just want to clarify, you received your CC permit from the Boulder Sherriff, correct? It should be a weapons permit, not just a handgun permit, but I agree with Ernie, why bring a knife to a gunfight.

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jcman wrote:

It should be a weapons permit, not just a handgun permit, but I agree with Ernie, why bring a knife to a gunfight.

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The Colorado permit is called"Concealed Weapon Permit", but the law limits the weapon covered in the permit to handguns only. CRS 18-12-204(2)(a) A permittee, in compliance with the terms of a permit, may carry a concealed handgun as allowed by state law.

Folding or fixed-blade knives with blade length equal to or less than 3.5 inches may be concealed with no special permit (state law andmost Front Range city ordinances). Automatic knives, "gravity" knives, etc. are prohibited.

Being a college town, one might expectthe Boulder police to be anti-OC, but several posters in this sectionhaveOCed (loaded of course) in Boulder and never had a problem. Before 2003, CO was "may issue"; Boulder County was one of the easiercounties in which to get a permit.

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Welcome to the CU grad student family! My wife and I moved here to Virginia at the end of May, but before that, I was a grad student at CU for three years, stuck right in the thick of Boulder. While I was there, I OC'ed all around there for those years without any problem. Prior to 2003, those Boulder laws still on the books were the law of the land, so back then you did need to unload if you didn't have a permit; cops who learned the law back then probably don't have much info on how it's changed and still might think you can't carry loaded, but preemption has made fully loaded OC legal all through the state in the ways people have already mentioned.

Considering how self-righteous the ninnies of Boulder tend to be, you'll be surprised how little people care about OCing there. I was never asked to leave any restaurant, to cover up, or if "I had a permit"; likewise, no trouble ever with any police giving me a hard time, and there were several occasions when I walked right by them on the street in a way they couldn't have missed me carrying. The city in general has also come into compliance with state law; rather than putting their heads in the sand and claiming their old laws are still enforceable, they've started to post public buildings as No-OC areas per CRS 29-11.7-104, so keep your eyes out for them if you travels take you to the clerk's office or something like that.

Other than that, carry away!

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Hey gang,
Wow, thanks for all your thoughtful responses. I really appreciate them, although I think this has just generated more questions and an even longer email than the first! First, let me clarify something that I said in my original post about the knife thing. While I have plenty of big knives (my SOG Desert Dagger being my favey) I carry them open, and typically on my harness when I'm camping, backpacking, etc. Rereading what I typed I can see where I wasn't clear. I wasn't meaning to say that I wanted to carry one of my knives concealed. What I was trying to tell the police officer was that I was under the impression that I have a concealed handgun permit (and in fact, my permit says "Concealed Handgun Permit" verbatim) not a concealed weapon permit. The distinction I was trying to make was that this permit doesn't allow me to grab one of my big knives and throw it under my jacket and carry it concealed legally. Nor does it probably allow me to grab a handful of throwing stars or any other sort of "weapon" besides a handgun (with the exception of the 3.5" knife as Anubis mentioned...in KY we lay the blade across the forward palm of an open hand and if it extends past it it's illegal to carry concealed). I did get my CCW from boulder sherriff's but it does distinctly say "Concealed Handgun Permit" (I've included a pic of it in this post since there seems to be some confusion about it saying "weapon" on it. I got my CCW the year when all the renewals were up for the people who got their CCW's in 2003, so I wonder if my permit reflects some new verbage on the card??) and my CCW class instructor seemed pretty adamant that the permit is for a handgun, not a shotgun, M4 shorty, or my sexy, parkerized, "fits-perfectly-in-your-hand-like-your-own-<deleted so i don't get banned>" SOG desert dagger. While I do love the proficiency, effectiveness, and personal nature of a blade, the chance of me bringing a knife to a gunfight is - in the words of my grandpa (who was also a US Marine in WWII) - "there's about as much of a chance of that as stickin' hot butter up a wildcat's a$$ with a handful o' hangnails."

So, let me see if I'm assimilating all your guys comments correctly here. The state of CO preempts local municipalities regarding CC because there are laws explicitly defining CC, but it is sketchy regarding OC because OC is not explicitly provided for in the law? Is it correct to say that the state cannot technically preempt local municipalities regarding OC because of this? Does this mean that local municipalities may restrict OC, like Denver does? If I didn't have a CCW would I be required to follow the Boulder OC statutes (or more to the point, say I run out with a pocketful of change in some shorts and i throw a pistol on my side without my wallet, such that I shouldn't be covered under CC laws since I'm not carrying my permit and I'm OC'ing anyway....would I then be required to follow Boulder's "no loaded handgun in the open" statutes?)?

Is it because I have a CCW that when I transition from CC to OC (or just OC) that the Boulder regulations regarding no loaded firearms in the open doesn't apply to me, even though I am OC'ing? I'm confused about how the state can preempt municipalities re: OC when they don't explicitly provide laws for OC. What happens if/when I run into that police officer out on pearl street while I'm OC and he attempts to cite/charge me for having a loaded weapon? It would ruin my day to have my sidearm seized, even if I would get it back months later....

On a similar note, say I'm OC in, oh I dunno, maybe Safeway or someplace, and the manager asks me to remove my sidearm to my vehicle...I then say "oh" and pull my shirt up and back over my pistol to conceal it. Does he have any legal leg to stand on in forcing me to leave? I wish the law were stricter in this matter, requiring any establishment not wanting guns on premise to have signs up, not just at the whim of someone working there asking you to leave. This way there's no ambiguity on our boundaries when OC'ing, and if someone pulls that crap asking us to leave while we're OC, we can simply offer to buy them a nice big cup of STFU. Further, who has that authority to ask you to remove your weapon? I know personal businesses can post signs advising no guns and I seem to understand that a manager can just capriciously, willy-nilly decide he doesn't want guns in his establishment even without posting by asking you to leave? But....at what point in that eschelon/hierarchy does the person have that authority? Can the bag boy at Safeway make me take my sidearm off or does it have to be a manager from corporate? What about the non-corporate shift manager at 2am? This is all very fuzzy to me and while I want to stay within the law, I am not happy to let some gun-fearing/hating jerkface enforce his beliefs on me because I am unclear on my protections under the law. I know you can let your feet do the walking, but honestly, that's inconvenient and unfair to us, especially if it's some wanker who just doesn't want me carrying. I am very unclear on who has what authority on this matter.

Now, to the CC without a CCW thing. The law allows CC without a permit in your personal conveyance, business, house...now, say for some reason I have left my CCW at home (or for those people who just don't have a CCW) and I'm in my vehicle with my sidearm on my hip under a jacket and I get pulled over. The officer asks me to step out of my vehicle. If I step out of my vehicle I believe I could technically be sited right then for illegal CC, but how does this get resolved? I tell the officer "Sir, I have a handgun on my right hip under my jacket. I want to comply with your orders but it is my understanding that when I leave my vehicle I will be illegally CC'ing." and he repeats "GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE!" What does a person do here? I think taking your jacket off in the vehicle or, god forbid, attempting to grab your handgun to remove it would have you in a situation in front of the business end of the officers handgun that we dont want to be in. I mention this because before I got my CO CCW I was in a situation very similar to this, except the officer did not ask me to leave my jeep, although I had run every scenario in my head I could think of between the time he left with my license/registration and the time he came back to cite me for "improper license plate display." I personally don't think he liked my "USMC Sniper: Spreading Democracy One Bullet At A Time" bumper sticker.


A question regarding CC on CU's campus. When first researching these laws I found several discrepencies that I believe exist still today that will probably continue to exist until clarified in the courts. I understand CC at CU is provided for in state CC law, but that the regents explicitly disallow it. Thanks for the links to that jcman. However, I believe CU is being incredibly disingenuous and deceitful here. Let me explain. I ran these statutes by a law *student* friend of mine as well as several other well-versed law-related persons when I decided to do grad school at CU and learned of this policy, for what that's worth. The 18-12-105.5 statute expressely forbids carrying a weapon (I'm only concerned about the handgun portion stated in d.5) on school, college, or university grounds UNLESS (1) you have a valid CCW AND (2) it is not expressly forbidden by 18-12-214(3).
(CAPITALIZATION is mine and i elided the sections that were irrelevant to our CCW discussion here)

Note (3)(a) as I'll come back to it later. Ok, I have a valid CCW so the first part of the (d.5) exception covers me. Now, the second part that must be met to carry CC on CU's campus is 18-12-214(3) and this section pretty big and I encourage you to read all of it if you haven't, but the parts pertaining to us here states:
Again, capitalization was added by me. Please note here that this section does not exclude carrying onto universities, only elementary, high, junior, high, etc. So, I meet the valid CCW portion and, since I'll be at CU, I will not be "in violation of the provisions of section 18-12-214(3)" Therefore, as I understand it, it is completely legal for a valid CCW holder to carry CC on CU's campus BUT if you are a student or employee and are caught, you will probably be administratively punished thru expulsion if a student or being fired, if an employee. If you are on campus for something else, maybe to pick up your kids, or attend graduation, I believe you are fully within the law to carry CC with a valid CCW. The press release from CU:
"Based on policy set forth by the University of Colorado Board of Regents and Colorado Revised Statute Title 18-12-105.5, it is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon or to possess a weapon while on the grounds of a CU campus."
is patently untrue, as we know you CAN possess the weapon in your vehicle at the least, and their statement makes it sound like it is illegal to CC there but I cannot find any grounds for their claim of it being "unlawful" but merely being against administrative policy. I stopped by CU's PD yesterday to get their take but couldn't find a single, breathing body. Seriously. I chuckled.

So correct me if I have my butt on my shoulders here. The discrepency I mentioned earlier is in the requirements for having the weapon in your vehicle on school grounds. 18-12-105.5 says the weapon must be in your vehicle (where in the vehicle? should the vehicle be locked?), while 18-12-214(a) says it must be in a compartment (whatever that is...glove box? trunk? gun case? isn't a purse a compartment?) within the vehicle and the vehicle is locked. I know this is pedantic, nit-picky stuff but one might think it important when being arrested for it.

Thanks again for all your comments and suggestions and for any further clarification or corrections of my misunderstandings you can provide. I'm still trying to wrap my head around state preemption as it relates to CC and OC, with and without a CCW, as well as how far we can push back when asked to remove our sidearm when we are OC'ing, who can ask us to remove our firearm (I've read the statutes that I *think* are applicable - see 18-12-214(5) and only provides for "private property owner, prvate tenant, private employer, or private business entity." of which I dont know where the Safeway bagboy or shift manager fits in), and what the real take on CU's CC legality is.

As always, thanks for reading and I will appreciate and look forward to your comments in this area.

Cheers!
-gian

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I will respond to 3 of your points and leave the rest for others.

TheDuellist wrote:

I did get my CCW from boulder sherriff's but it does distinctly say "Concealed Handgun Permit" (I've included a pic of it in this post since there seems to be some confusion about it saying "weapon" on it.

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My permit, issued in Arapahoe County, is a "Concealed Weapon Permit". The CRS only specifiesthe permittee personal information to be listed, not what the title or format must be, so there is some variation in appearancefrom county to county. As I wrote earlier, the CRS limits the weapons covered to be handguns.

TheDuellist wrote:

The state of CO preempts local municipalities regarding CC because there are laws explicitly defining CC, but it is sketchy regarding OC because OC is not explicitly provided for in the law? Is it correct to say that the state cannot technically preempt local municipalities regarding OC because of this? Does this mean that local municipalities may restrict OC, like Denver does?

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OC is covered by the state's pre-emption. Denver is the only exception because, after the "shall-issue" laws were enacted in 2003, Denver sued the state over several issues because some of its ordinances were in conflict with the state's new CRSs. Denver District Court Judge Meyer issued a decision (linked below)that allowed Denver to keep its prohibition of open carry, prohibition of "assault" weapons, and safe storage laws; the state won on several other points, including vehicle carry without permit. The state appealed the Meyer decision to the state supreme court. Before the SSC issued its decision, the attorney who argued for the state in lower court was appointed to the SSC and recused in this case. The decision was 3-3, so Meyer stands. In light of Heller, I find it amazing how often 1 judge's vote decides some very critical issues.

There is one CRS allowing a local goverment to ban OC in a limited way:

29-11.7-104. Regulation - carrying - posting.

A local government may enact an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area within the local government's jurisdiction. If a local government enacts an ordinance, regulation, or other law that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm in a building or specific area, the local government shall post signs at the public entrances to the building or specific area informing persons that the open carrying of firearms is prohibited in the building or specific area.


TheDuellist wrote:

On a similar note, say I'm OC in, oh I dunno, maybe Safeway or someplace, and the manager asks me to remove my sidearm to my vehicle...I then say "oh" and pull my shirt up and back over my pistol to conceal it. Does he have any legal leg to stand on in forcing me to leave?

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Yes. There's no CRS requiring private property to be posted to enforce the owner's prohibition of firearms, whether concealed or openly carried. If you are told to remove the firearm, and you do so immediately, there's no crime. If told to remove the firearm (or leave) and you refuse, police can be summoned to charge you with trespassing.

(I am having trouble trying to embed http://rmgo.org/alerts/2004-denverruling.htmin my second response. I'll try it here.)

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Most of what I'll say below is opinion, so you can take it for what it's worth.

On a similar note, say I'm OC in, oh I dunno, maybe Safeway or someplace, and the manager asks me to remove my sidearm to my vehicle...I then say "oh" and pull my shirt up and back over my pistol to conceal it....

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Anubis is correct, if you're asked to leave and you don't, then you can be arrested for trespassing. That being said, if some bagboy at the Safeway told me that, I would ask to speak with their manager right away, just to ask them if I was required to leave or if their employee was out of line. If they still wanted to kick me out, just say, "Ok, I'll take my business to XYZ down the street." Also let all your friends know about it and encourage them not to shop there. Hit them where it really hurts; in the wallet.

I tell the officer "Sir, I have a handgun on my right hip under my jacket. I want to comply with your orders but it is my understanding that when I leave my vehicle I will be illegally CC'ing." and he repeats "GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE!"

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To me, this exact situation seems like entrapment. In Colorado, you're not required to inform the officer that you're armed during a traffic stop. If the officer were to ask me to step out of the vehicle, I would do like you said and put my hands in plain view on the wheel and inform them that I'm armed, "How would you like to handle this?" If they tell me again to get out of the vehicle, well then, that's how they want to handle it. If the officer's order caused you to break the law, when you weren't going to break it otherwise, seems like entrapment.

A question regarding CC on CU's campus.

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I think you're correct in the logic here. K-12 schools are off limits for weapons (except for the in-the-vehicle exception), but not universities. So you'd probably be in trouble with the administration, but I'm not sure that you would be in trouble with the law.

I used to work for CUPD when I was a student there, so I know what you mean about no one being around. If you want to talk with an officer, you can head over to the PD, and use the phone in the lobby to talk with the dispatcher and request to speak with an officer. After regular business hours, there're not too many on shift, so if they're all away from the station, it'll take a little while for them to get there.

Another resource you may want to contact, if you don't wish to speak with an officer, is the Ombuds office. If you bring all the information you've mentioned here to them regarding CC on CU, they may help with any questions you have.