STATE FAIRS and firearms.

Venator · Jul 15, 2008

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From AG opinion 7123 the below implies that firearm bans at state fairs are allowed under a rule. I underlined the part in question, are CPL holders authorized by law? I sent this question to the Dept of AG and await their response.

"The Michigan Department of Agriculture has also promulgated a rule making it unlawful for any person, except authorized peace officers and other persons authorized by law, “to enter upon a fairgrounds and have in his possession any firearm loaded or unloaded.” 1979 AC, R 291.208."

Furner · Jul 15, 2008

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I would say that 28.425c(2) authorizes carry in state fairs.

Venator · Jul 15, 2008

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Furner wrote:

I would say that 28.425c(2) authorizes carry in state fairs.

otherwise provided by law is defined by the AG and upheld in several court cases. And (b) refers to carrying it in your vehicle.

(2) Subject to section 5o and except as otherwise provided by law, a license to carry a concealed pistol issued by the county concealed weapon licensing board authorizes the licensee to do all of the following:

(a) Carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person anywhere in this state.

(b) Carry a pistol in a vehicle, whether concealed or not concealed, anywhere in this state.

Part of the AG opinion:

The Concealed Pistol Licensing Act (Act), 1927 PA 372, as amended, MCL 28.421 et seq, regulates the possession and carrying of concealed pistols. The Act prohibits persons from carrying a concealed pistol unless they have been licensed in accordance with the provisions of the Act. Section 5c(2), MCL 28.425c(2), provides that licensees may carry a concealed pistol “anywhere in this state,” subject to certain exceptions found in section 5o and “except as otherwise provided by law.” ......The list of gun-free zones in section 5o is not all-inclusive, however, because section 5c(2) of the Act also prohibits the carrying of a concealed pistol in those locations where such a ban is “otherwise provided by law.”

The phrase “provided by law” was construed by the Michigan Supreme Court in Viculin v Dep’t of Civil Service, 386 Mich 375; 192 NW2d 449 (1971). In holding that appeal procedures set forth in a Michigan court rule were properly considered a method of review “provided by law” as used in Const 1963, art 6, § 28, the Court explained that the rule fell within the scope of this phrase because “t was adopted pursuant to the power vested” in the Court. 386 Mich at 397, n 20. This view is consistent with established principles describing what is meant by the word “law.” Its meaning was summarized in 52A CJS, Law, p 737, in the following way: It has been held to be a broad term, variously and frequently defined, its meaning in every instance to be governed by the context.

It is a general rule of conduct declared by some authority possessing sovereign power over the subject; a rule which every citizen of the state is bound to obey; an established or permanent rule established by the supreme power, or the power having the legislative control of the particular subject…That which must be obeyed and followed by citizens subject to sanctions or legal consequences is a law. [Footnotes omitted.] These general principles have been applied by Michigan courts. For example, properly promulgated administrative rules have the force and effect of law. Clonlara, Inc v Michigan State Bd of Ed, 442 Mich 230, 239; 501 NW2d 88 (1993). See also Vagts v Perry Drug Stores, Inc, 204 Mich App 481, 485-486; 516 NW2d 102 (1994) (a “law” includes “those principles promulgated in constitutional provisions, common law, and regulations as well as statutes”). Moreover, the Michigan Supreme Court has afforded full legal force and effect to orders issued by the Director of the Michigan Department of Natural Resources pursuant to statutory authorization in DNR v Seaman, 396 Mich 299, 310-314; 240 NW2d 206 (1976).

An examination of the Michigan laws dealing with the possession of firearms discloses several additional instances where the prohibition of firearms is “otherwise provided by law.” Among these is 2001 PA 225, MCL 259.80f, effective April 1, 2002, which prohibits the possession of a firearm in the “sterile” (i.e., secure) area of a commercial airport. In addition, the Michigan Supreme Court, in Administrative Order 2001-3, 464 Mich 1xxv, has, with certain exceptions, prohibited the possession of a weapon in any courtroom or facility used for official business of the court. A person violating the order may be held in contempt of court. The Michigan Department of Agriculture has also promulgated a rule making it unlawful for any person, except authorized peace officers and other persons authorized by law, “to enter upon a fairgrounds and have in his possession any firearm loaded or unloaded.” 1979 AC, R 291.208. The Michigan Department of Natural Resources has also adopted rules in the discharge of its duties concerning state park and wildlife management that fall within the “otherwise provided by law” provision of section 5c(2) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. MCL 324.504 authorizes the Department of Natural Resources to promulgate rules “for the protection of the lands and property under its control against wrongful use or occupancy.” This section also authorizes the Department to issue orders necessary to implement rules promulgated under this section. These orders take effect upon posting. Violation of a rule or order issued under this section constitutes a civil infraction punishable by a fine of not more than $500.00. MCL 324.504. Pursuant to this authority, the Department of Natural Resources has promulgated rules relating to the possession of a firearm on certain state lands administered by the department.1 Rule 27(b) makes it unlawful for a person to carry or possess a loaded firearm “in state parks and state recreation areas,” except on lands designated open to hunting during established hunting seasons or at an officially established target range or during an officially sanctioned field trial. 2001 MR 20, R 299.927. There is no prohibition against carrying or possessing an unloaded firearm in such areas. Department employees acting in the line of duty and certain other authorized persons are exempt from this rule. 2001 MR 20, R 299.930. On a designated shooting range, a person shall not “[p]ossess a loaded firearm, except at established shooting stations on the firing line.” 1979 AC, R 299.673. The Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act (NREPA), MCL 324.101 et seq, further allows a person to transport a firearm while going to and from a target range provided the firearm is unloaded and either encased or carried in the trunk of a vehicle. MCL 324.43513.

It is my opinion, therefore, in answer to your first question, that a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol may possess a pistol while hiking or camping within a state park provided that the pistol is not loaded. A person licensed to carry a concealed pistol may possess a loaded pistol within a state park only during established hunting seasons on lands designated open to hunting or at a target range established by the Department of Natural Resources or during an officially sanctioned field trial.

Furner · Jul 15, 2008

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I guess that maybe the only way to be sure is to be a test case. And I dont know for sure what the outcome of that case would be.
I look forward to seeing what the MDA has to say on this.

Venator · Jul 16, 2008

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Quick response from dept. of AGri. Here is what I received. So most fairs are now under DMB, except for the UP. I will try and contact the people below.

Brian -

The rule is available at the State Office of Administrative Hearings & Rules website, within the Administrative Code:

http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admincode.asp?AdminCode=Single&Admin_Num=29100201&Dpt=AC&RngHigh=
Hopefully that link works.

The rule, as it relates to the Michigan State Fair in Detroit, is administered by the Department of Management and Budget, pursuant to the Executive Order that transferred operations of the State Fair from the Michigan Dept. of Agriculture to DMB. The Upper Peninsula State Fair is still under the Michigan Department of Agriculture. The rule has not been updated since 1979. It does not define or reference a definition of "authorized peace officers" or "other persons authorized by law" and was put into place long before current laws, regulations, and Attorney General Opinions on concealed weapons. Language within the rule that has been superceded by subsequent legislation or judicial rulings would not be enforceable.

It appears that the intent of the regulation is to ensure safety at the Michigan State and Upper Peninsula State Fairgrounds. If you have specific questions about weapons at the Michigan State Fair, I would direct you to Fair Administration:

Steven R. Jenkins, General Manager
Michigan State Fairgrounds & Exposition Center
1120 W. State Fair Avenue
Detroit, MI 48203
By Phone: 313.369.8250/54

And for the UP State Fair:
Upper Peninsula State Fair
2401 12th Avenue North
Escanaba, Michigan 49829
Scott Staelgraeve, Manager
906-786-4193

Sincerely, Brad Deacon, Administrative Law Coordinator

Michigan Department of Agriculture phone 517-241-4085 fax 517-335-1423

possumboy · Jul 16, 2008

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Venator wrote:

Quick response from dept. of AGri. Here is what I received. So most fairs are now under DMB, except for the UP. I will try and contact the people below.

Brian -

The rule is available at the State Office of Administrative Hearings & Rules website, within the Administrative Code:

http://www.state.mi.us/orr/emi/admincode.asp?AdminCode=Single&Admin_Num=29100201&Dpt=AC&RngHigh=
Hopefully that link works.

The rule, as it relates to the Michigan State Fair in Detroit, is administered by the Department of Management and Budget, pursuant to the Executive Order that transferred operations of the State Fair from the Michigan Dept. of Agriculture to DMB. The Upper Peninsula State Fair is still under the Michigan Department of Agriculture. The rule has not been updated since 1979. It does not define or reference a definition of "authorized peace officers" or "other persons authorized by law" and was put into place long before current laws, regulations, and Attorney General Opinions on concealed weapons. Language within the rule that has been superceded by subsequent legislation or judicial rulings would not be enforceable.

It appears that the intent of the regulation is to ensure safety at the Michigan State and Upper Peninsula State Fairgrounds. If you have specific questions about weapons at the Michigan State Fair, I would direct you to Fair Administration:

Steven R. Jenkins, General Manager
Michigan State Fairgrounds & Exposition Center
1120 W. State Fair Avenue
Detroit, MI 48203
By Phone: 313.369.8250/54

And for the UP State Fair:
Upper Peninsula State Fair
2401 12th Avenue North
Escanaba, Michigan 49829
Scott Staelgraeve, Manager
906-786-4193

Sincerely, Brad Deacon, Administrative Law Coordinator

Michigan Department of Agriculture phone 517-241-4085 fax 517-335-1423

This appears to be desired response. They acknowledge it has not been updated in almost 30 years, and is most likely not enforceable.

Now comes the requests to have the rules updated to be in compliance with current laws.

STATE FAIRS and firearms.

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

Furner

Regular Member

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

Furner

Regular Member

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

possumboy

Regular Member