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Thread: If an Officer asks for your gun...

  1. #1
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    Oregon is one of those states where if you are pulled over by a LEO, they're going to know you have a CHL as soon as they run your License. So the common recommendation in Oregon is to hand over both your License and CHL at the same time, because they're going to know no matter what.

    I've heard reports that some officers simply ask where the handgun is, while others have reported that the LEO insisted on disarming the citizen and holding the gun (putting in on or in their cruiser) until the traffic stop is complete.

    I believe that for a "Terry Stop" (Officer has reasonable suspicion a crime has been, is being, or will be committed), an officer has the power to frisk and disarm you (tell meif I'm wrong), but what if it's just a traffic infraction? Does the officer have the power to force you to hand over your weapon, or to even take it from you? Isn't that considered a "seizure" of your property, even if it's temporary?

    If a LEO does NOT have the power to disarm me for an infraction, what's the best way to respond? I would think that "I understand you are asking for your personal safety, but I believe my handgun is in the safest place right where it is," or "I do not consent to being disarmed" would be some appropriate responses, but what do I say or do if the issue is pushed?

    I do not want to have my hand anywhere near my firearm in the presence of a police officer, and I certainly do not want them removing it from my IWB holster.

    ...Officer, if you're going to remove my gun from my pants, I should inform you that I am a very happily married man...
    ...Orygunner...

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    Traffic Stop (infraction, not sure about legalities of disarming):

    "We would both be a lot safer with all weapons snugly in their holsters, but if you insist on disarming me, I will not resist. Could you please remove the holster and gun to avoid any possibility of injury to either one of us?"


    Walking Down the street (no reasonable, articulatable suspicion):

    "I do not consent to your request to illegally search me and seize my property, but I will not resist your efforts to remove my weapon. I appreciate your concern for safety, but everyone would be a lot safer with all weapons secured in their holsters. Please remove the weapon in its holster to prevent any possibility of a negligent discharge."




    Be polite, comply with demands -- regardless of how stupid or illegal they may be -- get information (Officer names, badge #s, etc...), follow up with appropriate complaints/lawsuits/etc...

  3. #3
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    Wow. When you request thatthe officerremoves the gun WITH the holster, my first thought was of the SmartCarry holster, and imagining how that would look for someone driving by...

    ...Look mommy! That cop is pulling that man's pants down!...

    Seriously though, great ideas, thank you. That's a good idea I hadn't considered, making sure it stays in the holster, and also making sure the LEO touches it, rather than me trying to handle it in front of the officer.

    ...Wow! :shock:Officer, your hands are really cold!...
    ...Orygunner...


    (Edited to remove original quote)

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    "get your hands out of my thunderwear, sir!"


    .:what:

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    "uhh, I have a Serpa - this may take a while..."





  6. #6
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    What about, "I'll let you have mine if you let me have yours".

    Seriously, if there is nothing in any state code that gives an LEO the authority to disarm you when there is no apparent or obvious reason for him to do so, that action would seem to me to be illegal and if an LEO is breaking the law, isn't he subject to arrest just like anyone else?

    Yes it may seem facetious but really.. if he does not have this authority when there is no reason for him to exercise such authority, isn't he over stepping this a might?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    If he doesn't have the authority to disarm you, then simply say "I carry this for my protection and I have no reason to believe I don't need protection from you". If he does (like Texas), or insists,then let him recover it. No matter where it is.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

  8. #8
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    I like the idea of asking them to take the responsibility to remove the gun, after voicing my objections.

    I also like the idea of requesting they remove the entire holster from my belt... Much safer that way.

  9. #9
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    'Im sorry officer, I did not initiate this contact or this search. If you need instruction on how to remove the firearm from my triple retention holster, I would gladly give them in the presence of my attorney."
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&hl=en



    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...p;q=&hl=en

    These 2 videos are the best I have seen



    Why you should not talk to LEO

  11. #11
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    Yes, I LOVE those videos. Learned a lot from them (and the one from the Flex Your Rights Foundation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA)

    I was told something else, a long time ago, that you do NOT have to exit your vehicle unless you are actually under arrest. Does anyone know if this is true?

    If this IS true, and if I am not required to get out of my vehicle, how is the officer going to disarm me?

    Is it considered a "lawful order" for an officer to ask you to get out of your car for a traffic violation, if he has no RAS of a crime besides an infraction?

    ...You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead cow leather holster...
    ...Orygunner...

  12. #12
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    If an officer asked for my gun and he had no authority to demand it, I'd refocus the situation with something like "Surely you didn't pull me over to fondle my gun..."

    I would make it quite clear in no uncertain terms that any advances are unwelcome, probably with many 4 letter words sprinkled in, to make it clear that I am not WILLINGLY giving up my property, which they will most certainly will in my 1983 lawsuit.


    Is it considered a "lawful order" for an officer to ask you to get out of your car for a traffic violation, if he has no RAS of a crime besides an infraction?

    I was reading aout this on grits for breakfast blog, and state law dependant, the cops may NOT have the authority to do so. I know on the DA message board, they were discussing what to do if a person refused to get out of a car. There was actually no statute requiring it, at least in Tx.

  13. #13
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    if the cop wants to be a ****** he will take it and "inspect" it. which really what they are doing is trying to find something to nail you on. maybe gun was purchased recently under someone else's name, or it was stolen 40 years ago... whatever

  14. #14
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    Seriously, now ... does anyone actually know the law (anyplace's law) or anything else about this? I can think of plenty of smarta$$ comments all by myself, but the idea of getting into some kind of a scuffle over a loaded firearm really isn't funny. Neither is the idea of having some officers try to fumble with a retention holster (the popular SERPA, for example) with a loaded firearm in it.

    All the serious advice I've seen about unfriendly encounters with LE says, more or less, "don't consent to anything but never physically resist. Straighten it out later." This situation could easily be right on the border between consent and resistance, and there are non-trivial safety issues involved.

    I don't have a problem with defending my rights, but the idea of a 155gr Gold Dot in my femoral artery because nervous Officer Clumsy fumbled a disarm while I stood quietly with my arms folded just does not seem like a reasonable option to me. If there's a lawsuit involved, I'd rather file it myself than have my heirs and assigns do it.

    So, if anyone actually knows something about this, either legal or practical, I'd really love to hear it.

    regards,

    GR



    PS: I have noticed that a G23 in a CQC SERPA could possibly be unloaded (mag and chamber) without actually being removed from the holster (and no, I did NOT try that with live rounds). Any potential, legal or practical, in such a maneuver? The practicality of it would obviously depend on the holster/firearm combination.

  15. #15
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    This is whats on the Michigan State Police web site.
    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0941--,00.html



    To Ensure Safety During Police Encounters If you are stopped by a law enforcement officer you should:
    • Keep your hands where an officer can see them. Cooperate fully with the police officer. If you have a gun with you, tell the police officer as soon as possible. Do not make any quick movements, especially toward the weapon. If in a vehicle at night, turn on your vehicle's dome light.
    In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized.
    Related Content • Firearms Identification GuidePublic Notice of Intent to Dispose of FirearmsCarrying Under the Influence CCW ReportsConcealed Pistol Application and InstructionsConcealed Pistol Permit Renewal InformationFederal Firearms LawsFirearms Laws in MichiganFirearms RegistrationNCIC Gun Code ManualMichigan's Concealed Pistol Law - FAQsMCOLES and the CCW LawPistol Free AreasPurchasing Firearms in MichiganReciprocity Concealed Pistol Permit-Requirements to Obtain OneLicense to Purchase Training Review


  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Orygunner wrote:
    Oregon is one of those states where if you are pulled over by a LEO, they're going to know you have a CHL as soon as they run your License. So the common recommendation in Oregon is to hand over both your License and CHL at the same time, because they're going to know no matter what.

    I've heard reports that some officers simply ask where the handgun is, while others have reported that the LEO insisted on disarming the citizen and holding the gun (putting in on or in their cruiser) until the traffic stop is complete.

    I believe that for a "Terry Stop" (Officer has reasonable suspicion a crime has been, is being, or will be committed), an officer has the power to frisk and disarm you (tell meif I'm wrong), but what if it's just a traffic infraction? Does the officer have the power to force you to hand over your weapon, or to even take it from you? Isn't that considered a "seizure" of your property, even if it's temporary?

    If a LEO does NOT have the power to disarm me for an infraction, what's the best way to respond? I would think that "I understand you are asking for your personal safety, but I believe my handgun is in the safest place right where it is," or "I do not consent to being disarmed" would be some appropriate responses, but what do I say or do if the issue is pushed?

    I do not want to have my hand anywhere near my firearm in the presence of a police officer, and I certainly do not want them removing it from my IWB holster.

    ...Officer, if you're going to remove my gun from my pants, I should inform you that I am a very happily married man...
    ...Orygunner...
    If the weapon is not on my person but in a console, etc... I would say something like this....

    "officer I would rather not touch my firearm, I will get out of the car and lock my doors and place the keys on the hood for your safety."
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  17. #17
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    Gentleman Ranker wrote:
    Seriously, now ... does anyone actually know the law (anyplace's law) or anything else about this? I can think of plenty of smarta$$ comments all by myself, but the idea of getting into some kind of a scuffle over a loaded firearm really isn't funny. Neither is the idea of having some officers try to fumble with a retention holster (the popular SERPA, for example) with a loaded firearm in it.

    The law, court opinions,has been extensively discussed.

    Search for TerryStop, frisk, armed and dangerous.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  18. #18
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    Orygunner wrote:
    SNIP I was told something else, a long time ago, that you do NOT have to exit your vehicle unless you are actually under arrest. Does anyone know if this is true?

    There is case law on this point.

    I can't recall the on-the-ground circumstances, nor thedetails of the opinion I read. I only read one opinion on it, and then only because I came across it looking for something else. I believe the courts will sustain his use of force to remove you from a careven if you are not under arrest.


    Search Justicia Law; its free.

    Regardless, the time to usesuch a right, if the government does recognize such,is after the stop. Not during. During the stop, its just you and the cop. He has the advantage. Lots of them. Do not try to enforce your rights during any kind of stop, just verbally exercisethem.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  19. #19
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    Gentleman Ranker wrote:
    Seriously, now ... does anyone actually know the law (anyplace's law) or anything else about this? I can think of plenty of smarta$$ comments all by myself, but the idea of getting into some kind of a scuffle over a loaded firearm really isn't funny.
    YES, in oregon you MUST give the "officer" your firearm if you were carrying concealed and he "asks" for it.

  20. #20
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    johnnyb, I can't find the law to back that up. do you have a source?

    ...Orygunner...

  21. #21
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    ORS 166.380 Examination of firearm by peace officer; arrest for failure to allow examination. (1) A peace officer may examine a firearm possessed by anyone on the person while in or on a public building to determine whether the firearm is a loaded firearm.
    (2) Refusal by a person to allow the examination authorized by subsection (1) of this section constitutes reason to believe that the person has committed a crime and the peace officer may make an arrest pursuant to ORS 133.310. [1969 c.705 §3]
    I couldn't find anything about a CHL exempting us from ORS 166.380. But it does state "while in or on a public building" and a public building is defined as:

    166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise:

    (4) “Public building” means a hospital, a capitol building, a public or private school, as defined in ORS 339.315, a college or university, a city hall or the residence of any state official elected by the state at large, and the grounds adjacent to each such building. The term also includes that portion of any other building occupied by an agency of the state or a municipal corporation, as defined in ORS 297.405, other than a court facility.
    From my understanding the officer cannot examine my firearm unless he has RAS. But if I am in a public building as defined previous then he can examine my weapon without RAS.

    I'm not saying I would physically resist if the officer wants to examine my weapon, I would just say that I do not consent to a search and seizure of my property.

  22. #22
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    Thanks, I almost forgot about that one (ORS 166.380), because I was thinking in the context of a police stopwhile driving or in public places.

    That statute really doesn't make very much sense, though. You're forbidden to posess a loaded or unloaded firearm in a "public building" by ORS 166.370, but exempted from that restriction if you have a CHL. So what difference does it make whether it is loaded, either you're allowed to posess it with a CHL, or you're not?

    ...Think I'll write my legislature and ask that law be removed...
    ...Orygunner...

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    hmm i can't find it maybe its one of those things they lie to you about when you go into the dugneon to apply for a cc permit.

    someone here who is really smart or good at finding **** should find out for sure!

    then we'll ask the cops what the law is lol

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    All this leads me to another question. What if the holster has multiple levels of retention and the officer is unable to remove it, even when you explain how to. Do you do it yourself at the risk of having him point his service weapon at you? How do you handle that?

  25. #25
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    His problem.

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