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Thread: CCW IN MD ?? Need 30 people

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    I have been wondering how to challenge the Maryland CCW Permit process… I have came to this Idea, First we would need a class of people all different backgrounds and make ups that visit or work and live in Baltimore MD to go through the process of being denied on the basis of personal protection.



    Then go to the hand gun review board and be denied as well.

    Then to the circuit court to file a class action against the structure of the application Under the requirements Personal Protection : There must be documented evidence of recent threats, robberies, and/or assaults, supported by official police reports or notarized statements from witnesses.



    1. Ok here is where idea comes in we use the FBI and Maryland state police resources along with documented proof that there are all these things and even more in the Baltimore Metro area
    2. Lets say 6 months of Baltimore metro area police reports and News reports Video and print as to the crime in this area, Assault’s, Rapes, Robberies, killings, and so on.

    Might be off base but I was thinking that it might force the state police to change the way they handle applications and maybe get a training requirement and attempt to move this into the 21st century in view of the recent rulings and cases coming up .

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Are you coordinating this with Maryland Shall Issue? Maybe you should.

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    Chris1760 wrote:
    Might be off base but I was thinking that it might force the state police to change the way they handle applications and maybe get a training requirement and attempt to move this into the 21st century in view of the recent rulings and cases coming up .
    I don't believe the state police made the documented threatsrequirement up. I think it was your state legislature.

    And why would you ever want a training requirement at all?

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    I would imagine that the training requirement would be to satiate any requirements regarding trained licensees entering school grounds.

    Good luck with the project!

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    I wish you all the luck in the worl. Unf I live in a rather rural area of Frederick County so I would not really be of any use to that, but I sure hope that YOU are successful in your pursuit.

    MikeV

    p.s. you should contact Henry at MD Shall Issue. He runs a great orginization and might be able to give you guidance and support.

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    I would want a training requirement to obtain a CCW there are states that would honor our permit if there is training and I just like to know that you can hit the side of a barn I'm just funny like that I think a person should demonstrate the ability to safely Handel and shoot a gun that he or she is carrying for personal defence

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    I may be interested.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    I would be more interested but I live all the way out here in Washington State.

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    yeah I agree with training being important. there aren't currently a lot of nra basic handgun class in MD right now because there is no demand, but anyone can take the instructor training and then provide the basic handgun training toindividuals.

    there are classes practicly every weekend in virginia, so if MD actually gave people CCW permits then classes would become easy to find in MD also.

    there is a basic handgun class that includes instructor level training at the NRA headquarters in september that is about 200$ and would qualify you as an instructor for taking it. I'm considering it.

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    kohburn wrote:
    yeah I agree with training being important. there aren't currently a lot of nra basic handgun class in MD right now because there is no demand, but anyone can take the instructor training and then provide the basic handgun training toindividuals.

    there are classes practicly every weekend in virginia, so if MD actually gave people CCW permits then classes would become easy to find in MD also.

    there is a basic handgun class that includes instructor level training at the NRA headquarters in september that is about 200$ and would qualify you as an instructor for taking it. I'm considering it.
    thats a scary thought too...



    kohburn and I are thinking about this and would be able to teach the class !

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    Hello Chris I have a valid CCW permit for VA,Utah. I live in maryland and have had no luck I am with you on the Class Action Law suit.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    I'm a native Marylander... and a former Baltimore City cop. (mia culpa) The whole premise of 'proving' threats or that garbage for a 'permit'is ILLEGAL hoplophobic nonsense!

    In the Heller case, Justice Scalia wrote, “Nowhere else in the Constitution does a ”right“ attributed to ”the people“ refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention ”the people,“ the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset... The Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms... The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it ‘shall not be infringed’.”

    Shall not be INFRINGED. No pre-existing conditions. A RIGHT is unconditional. The MD Statts Polizei are a bunch'a sturmtruppen mentality brownshirts in the pay of hoplophobic morons voted into office time and again by dependant SHEEP! These Polizie, having sworn to uphold the Constitution... DO NOT!

    They serve the socialist controlling whims of their mewling masters. I uttered these same words to the clown in brown who denied my Right to bear arms in Maryland years ago. I finally voted with my feet.


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    I really think that it is best to let the existing legal efforts play out first, rather than start something new. You do realize you are not talking about an inexpensive effort. You are looking at easily 6 figures.

    You might want to get some people to apply and be turned down, just to have status in some future action.

    The thing is, it may not matter, as far as getting a CC permit. Heller leans toward OC being a right and CC a privilege that can require a license.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    ilbob wrote:
    I really think that it is best to let the existing legal efforts play out first, rather than start something new. You do realize you are not talking about an inexpensive effort. You are looking at easily 6 figures.

    You might want to get some people to apply and be turned down, just to have status in some future action.

    The thing is, it may not matter, as far as getting a CC permit. Heller leans toward OC being a right and CC a privilege that can require a license.
    The 'existing legal efforts' in MD is like pissin' up a rope. You may run a classifed ad for responders who've been denied.THEN... collectively pursue a Class Action suite. Maryland has become a socialist state... 'n the slack jawed, vacant eyed, droolin'inhabitants just bleat in unison: "How 'bout dem Ohhw's hon?" Morons...

    They get the government they deserve.



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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    ilbob wrote:
    I really think that it is best to let the existing legal efforts play out first, rather than start something new. You do realize you are not talking about an inexpensive effort. You are looking at easily 6 figures.

    You might want to get some people to apply and be turned down, just to have status in some future action.

    The thing is, it may not matter, as far as getting a CC permit. Heller leans toward OC being a right and CC a privilege that can require a license.

    The 'existing legal efforts' in MD is like pissin' up a rope. You may run a classifed ad for responders who've been denied.THEN... collectively pursue a Class Action suite. Maryland has become a socialist state... 'n the slack jawed, vacant eyed, droolin'inhabitants just bleat in unison: "How 'bout dem Ohhw's hon?" Morons...

    They get the government they deserve.
    While I do agree with you to a point Igave up my life in TN to come here for familyand this is where I am so I will make an effort to improve my area and shine a light in the problem ..... Now I am but a little Para Legal outhere. but I personally think the place to attack is the wording of theapplication it self, several attorneys that I work withlike the idea on its face so far.
    Personally I think we will never get the govermentin maryland to go to shall issiue... but the court can direct the state police in its application of the license.
    Just my 0.02

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    Maryland needs a whole different government... from the top down. Counties included... along with what's left of Baltimore City. 'Bout the only way that'll ever happen is armed rebellion... 'cause the 'I'm a Democrat, my daddy was a Democrat, my grandaddy was a Democrat" SHEEP ain't gonna do it. The Parasites sure ain't gonna do it.... 'n they've all but eaten the Host... 'Hon!'

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    Baltimore's idea of OC is a large dog, and just like real life carry, Baltimore OC has a list of places where such is prohibited! Woof!

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    Might work if not to much cost, don't know maryland licence fee.
    But buy a business licence to provide protective services. Then have your wife
    hire you for protection for a nominal fee of course. (Maybe barter system)
    After all she is the boss anyways, make it official.
    Then you don't need the personnel protection option. Or maybe look into bounty hunter option. You don't have to actually go out and chase anyone down.
    Bad business activity is not a crime. Plus you can deduct office space on taxes.
    Write off bullet expenses for 'training'.

    I did this once and the licence fee + the hardware I needed was cheaper
    than purchasing over the counter. Alas a few years ago they 10 folded
    the fees, and had to 'retire'.




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    I think a good lawsuit is needed for this, since the DC and Baltimore area counties control what goes on in MD.

    Not sure about public information for MD, but info on permit holders' applications(their justification for getting it,exc, names and addresses not important) could help a case on 14th Amendment grounds. Let's say you find political cronies getting permits left and right with no record of being a victim or carrying large amounts of cash,exc. That may be enough to prove the process is biased and totally arbitrary(which was mentioned in the SCOTUS decision, that Heller did not object to licensing requirements as long as they were not done arbitrarily). Further, if MD has a loophole for ex-LEO to bypass the "letter of need," for a permit, that's also hard for the state to prove equal protection under the law.

    Or, you go 2A, that the state is barring you from bearing arms, making you pass a hurdle(justifiable need) that 99.9% of the people of the state cannot jump. In the SCOTUS decision, "bear arms" was referred to (actually by Justice Ginsburg in another case) as carrying weapons for the purpose of offensive or defensive action during a confrontation, which, the defensive part, is what CC is all about.

    You may want to consult w/a firearms lawyer in MD. Maybe the sight of your letter written by a lawyer will be enough that they don't want to bother w/a possible lawsuit. Or, depending on what the state tells you is the reason for denial, they may leave themselves open to have this move up the ladder and get struck down in higher court. IANAL, but if it went to the state supreme court or Federal court, and you win, I believe that would effectively eliminate the "justifiable need," part and make MD shall issue.

    As far as the Heller case pointing toward open carry, I think MD, if forced to go shall issue, would probably not want open carry, and make it CC only.



  20. #20
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    I think you must have to be a retired LEO (and I'm not certain they'll even issue in that instance anymore).... When I resigned from BPD, I attempted to obtain a permit ('cause I had lotta perps still in the joint that I'd arrested and would be gettin' out at intervals...) No joy! The State already had my fingerprints, history... all that stuff. There was NO valid reason not to issue me a CC permit. You can repeat the 2A rhyme and verse 'til the cows come home with emphasis on actual instutionalized denial (by the State) of Constitutional 'Rights' and they'll laugh at ya.

    There are a LOT of otherwise law-abiding citizens in MD who CC w/o permits because they are forced to. Some just carry in their vehicles and some 'carry'. I knew several. 'Knew a soldiers wife (Ft Meade) who worked at Penny's in the Columbia mall who was followed by six 'hoodles' to her car after the store closed one nite. She had to park way out on the extreme edge of the lot... to the rear of the store. Ennyhoo... there was no doubt what these 'persons' were up to... and she's about 5' 'n 100 lbs at the time. Well... long story short, she's carryin' a S&W Mod 36 .38 in her purse. Five shots... but anyway... she gets to her car and they start to 'circle'. She pulled that pistol 'n lit 'em up. All 5 shots. They ran... three of 'em limpin'. She got in her car and went home. This was back in the late '80's. Nice thing about wheel guns is there's no brass left at the scene. Had she not done that... she'd have been a forgotten 'statistic'. Does the State care? Hell no. Maryland is stuck on stupid.

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    The Heller case has at least changed the "collective" rights to "individual" rights. I've been doing a LOT of research and these liberal courts have ALWAYS said it's a collective right of the militia. Although they'll probably say now that the 2A doesn't apply to the states.

    However, if that were true, MD could ban ALL firearms tomorrow, and no one could do a thing about it. Does anyone think MD would win in court doing something like that?

  22. #22
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    From my earlier post: "In the Heller case, Justice Scalia wrote, “Nowhere else in the Constitution does a ”right“ attributed to ”the people“ refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention ”the people,“ the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset... So much for the subset'militia'. As to the 2A being 'not applicable to the States'... The Constitution refers to 'The People' as above. This recognizes (not grants) the Right to self defense... and the means (Arms).

    Maryland... (having been unfortunate enuff to have been born there) has degenerated into a Socialist state populated by subservientsheeple and vocal parasites. I don't see that changing... ever.

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Sonora, not saying you're a lawyer, but do you think that prima facie argument would hold up in an Open carry state if one wanted to carry a sword around?

    Not that I have one mind you...but if i did i would carry it. Old school and all that...a classic look from a time gone by.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    The 2A is the RTK&BA... Arms. 'doesn't say anything about 'firearms' specifically... just 'bearable arms'. Yeah... that would include swords. (I have about 8 of those which would be quite servicable for their intended purpose) My favorite being the 1851 Ames cutlass. It also puts the kabosh on length of sheath knives if carried openly... (as is the case in AZ).

    Swords might seem 'eccentric'... but they 'are' bearable arms... openly carried. If ya have a LEO encounter tho... Don't respond with: "There can be only ONE!"


    Uhh... no I'm not a Lawyer, butI paid attention in my Criminal Justice classes back when. 'Lotta 'lore 'n opinion' floatin' around in that which had no basis in actual Law... regardless of what the State (MD) prohibited to the contrary. Rights are pre-existing conditions of humanity, not something permitted or granted by any authority. The 'authority' (Government) is tasked with recognition of such individual rights and (supposedly) their support and defense. Nothing other. That's the 'Shall not be infringed' part of the 2A.


    Further edit: Swords (sabers) were quite common in the Southwest and the former Spanish areas of Texas 'n California in the early 1800's to about the early 1870's. (The 'Alamo'/'Zorro' era) 'Downside... they're clunky... and you need to practice with them. A rolled up old carpet hung from a rope serves nicely as a target. .A 3 lb sabre gets really heavy after a bit. The hand and a half broadswords (dubble edged) work great. Beware the 'novelty' stuff... they're wall hangers. You need a blade that will bend 6" from center and remain true. Krupp CK-55 steel is good. 'Collectors Armory' stuffare all 'real' weapons.


    'Best way to carry is to use a belt frog to accept (and hold) the sheath. That way the whole thing may be removed easily. Heh... 'could start whole new trend... swords, pikes, axes, war hammers... even Assagi's (short stabbing spears). The LEO's 'n their Politico masters would go nutz.:what:

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    snip.........She got in her car and went home. This was back in the late '80's. Nice thing about wheel guns is there's no brass left at the scene. Had she not done that... she'd have been a forgotten 'statistic'.
    Good story. She was/is somebody's wife, mother, sister or simply friend and she came home that night. No other comment is necessary.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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