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Thread: School Zones

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    I read that when you are in a school zone, without a CFP, your gun needs to be completely unloaded and locked away in a case. However, I can't find the definition of locked. To me, it seems like a case with sliders that hold the two halves together could be considered locked, but I'm not sure.

    Please elaborate.

    I'm also under the assumption that such case would be considered "securely encased".

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    Good question. I looked up that part in Vilos' book and it doesn't go into what locked means. It does say that the Federal law was found unconstitutional but congress tried to claim it was matter of interstate commerce... That is another story..


    I would think locked means that it takes a key, combination, or fingerprint etc to open. So something that can't just be opened by anyone. Something that only the authorized person can open (with key, combination, biometrics, etc). That is what I think of when I think locked. A case that simply closes and has some latches to hold it closed isn't locked to me.

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    That's very interesting. It seems like a big gray area since it must be locked but the key can be in it, which is no different than locking the two halves with sliders in my opinion.

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    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > §921 Definitions

    (34) The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—
    (A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;
    (B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or
    (C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > §922 Unlawful Acts

    (2) (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
    (iii) that is—
    (I) not loaded; and
    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Many years ago the Captain of the SC Highway Patrol was speaking at a meeting I was attending and he saidabout the differencebetween latched vs. locked was that locked required a key. This was in reference to carrying a gun in the glove compartment in your car. He said that in SC the requirement was that it be latched wich required some kind of device to hold it closed which could be a clasp, latch or even zipper. Really didn't matter as long as some device held it closed. Locked would be where it required a key of some type to open it. So if you are speaking of your glove compartment you would have to lock it with a key. For a gun case it would have to have some kind of lock on it that required a key or combination. Otherwise it is latched.

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    PT111 wrote:
    So if you are speaking of your glove compartment you would have to lock it with a key. For a gun case it would have to have some kind of lock on it that required a key or combination. Otherwise it is latched.
    Remember, if you use your glove box in Utah without a permit, it is considered concealment.

    U.C.A. 76-10-501


    (2) (a) "Concealed dangerous weapon" means a dangerous weapon that is covered, hidden, or secreted in a manner that the public would not be aware of its presence and is readily accessible for immediate use.
    (b) A dangerous weapon shall not be considered a concealed dangerous weapon if it is a firearm which is unloaded and is securely encased.

    (18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Thanks Jensen. So basically locked means: key, combination, or similar means.... not latched with sliders.

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    That's very interesting. It seems like a big gray area since it must be locked but the key can be in it, which is no different than locking the two halves with sliders in my opinion.
    One big difference -- if you get pulled over you can pull the key out and drop it in your ash tray while waiting for the cop to walk up to your door. In a half-second you just went from legally-but-not-practically-locked to locked-by-any-definition.

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    I will have to find the link again, but I have seen a gun safe for your car (or nightstand)that is the best of both worlds. It requires a combination to unlock and access your gun, BUT the combo is just 2 buttons so your combo is either 1-2 or 2-1. I think you can even set it to open with 1 button press too. Quicker than trying to pry open that Tupperware container, and works in all states.

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    So basically locked means: key, combination, or similar means.
    Yes, according to FEDERAL law...

    ...latched with sliders.
    This would be "securely encased" under STATE law.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    xRapidDavex wrote:
    So basically locked means: key, combination, or similar means.
    Yes, according to FEDERAL law...

    ...latched with sliders.
    This would be "securely encased" under STATE law.
    Exactly.

    Note, however, that the state gun-free school zone law does not require you to securely encase guns in your vehicle.

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    well... when im in my car, its always either "in the open, plain view" or in a zipped up guncase...i dont think it needs to be in a "LITERALLY" locked container as long as its in your car.

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    well... when im in my car, its always either "in the open, plain view" or in a zipped up guncase...i dont think it needs to be in a "LITERALLY" locked container as long as its in your car.
    Well federal law says it has to be if you are within 1000 feet of a school zone without a CFP

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    b1ack5mith wrote:
    well... when im in my car, its always either "in the open, plain view" or in a zipped up guncase...i dont think it needs to be in a "LITERALLY" locked container as long as its in your car.
    Just to reinforce what xRapidDavex said: YES, it absolutely does have to be in a locked container when you're in a school zone.

    The Utah law against guns near schools says it's okay if it's in your vehicle. The federal law requires that it be unloaded (really unloaded, not Utah-unloaded) and LOCKED UP.

    Unless you have a permit, of course. And then we get into the question about whether or not a Maine permit allows carrying in Utah school zones...

    Have I ever mentioned how much the federal GFSZA sucks?

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    swillden wrote:
    b1ack5mith wrote:
    well... when im in my car, its always either "in the open, plain view" or in a zipped up guncase...i dont think it needs to be in a "LITERALLY" locked container as long as its in your car.
    Just to reinforce what xRapidDavex said: YES, it absolutely does have to be in a locked container when you're in a school zone.

    The Utah law against guns near schools says it's okay if it's in your vehicle. The federal law requires that it be unloaded (really unloaded, not Utah-unloaded) and LOCKED UP.

    Unless you have a permit, of course. And then we get into the question about whether or not a Maine permit allows carrying in Utah school zones...

    Have I ever mentioned how much the federal GFSZA sucks?
    I am fairly new here so I can't really say for sure,Swillden, but it seems like it does need to be said again and again and again. LOL
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
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    swillden wrote:

    Unless you have a permit, of course. And then we get into the question about whether or not a Maine permit allows carrying in Utah school zones...
    It is my opinion that anyone with any states permit is OK to carry in a Utah school zone.

    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;


    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.

    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.


    Have I ever mentioned how much the federal GFSZA sucks?
    Have I ever mentioned that the GFSZA is unconstitutional? :X


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    So does "similar means" include a gun lock through the hole of one of the sliders?

    You would have to put the key in, pull the lock chord out of the hole, and then open the case.

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    designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.
    Similar means would be like fingerprint reader. What you explains is a normal key lock so yes that would be locked according to "by means of a key"

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    xRapidDavex wrote:
    I read that when you are in a school zone, without a CFP, your gun needs to be completely unloaded and locked away in a case. However, I can't find the definition of locked. To me, it seems like a case with sliders that hold the two halves together could be considered locked, but I'm not sure.

    Please elaborate.

    I'm also under the assumption that such case would be considered "securely encased".
    Wait, so does that mean you are breakin the law if you are OCing, then get into your car and drive by a school to get to a McDonalds? (Lets say, full mag, empty breech, SERPA/Fobus holster, no CC permit) The school just happned to be on your route. I can't be right, nahh...

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    Wait, so does that mean you are breakin the law if you are OCing, then get into your car and drive by a school to get to a McDonalds?
    Yes it means exactly that. You are breaking federal law.

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    Cykaos wrote:
    Wait, so does that mean you are breakin the law if you are OCing, then get into your car and drive by a school to get to a McDonalds?
    Yes it means exactly that. You are breaking federal law.
    ok, thank you. just answered my Q in another thread too. Thanks. :celebrate

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    Cykaos wrote:
    Wait, so does that mean you are breakin the law if you are OCing, then get into your car and drive by a school to get to a McDonalds?
    Yes it means exactly that. You are breaking federal law.

    But the law doesn't just "protect" schools which could be easily identified with some effort but LISENCED DAY CARE CENTERS as well. I am willing to bet you won't find a complete listing of those in the old yellow pages or even an internet search.

    It isn't just driving by but "within 1000 feet of the property" not the building!

    I haven't looked but the state may not have an easily accessable listing for the general public either....

    CC Permit is the ONLY way to go when you can get it.....

    JoeSparky

    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    CC Permit is the ONLY way to go when you can get it.....
    I submit that a repeal of the unconstitutional law is the only way to go.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    CC Permit is the ONLY way to go when you can get it.....
    I submit that a repeal of the unconstitutional law is the only way to go.
    I will "type" corrected, Sir. You are most correct.

    But, until that great and glorious day... CC Permit allowing to OPEN CARRY is a very viable alternative....

    JoeSparky
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    But the law doesn't just "protect" schools which could be easily identified with some effort but LISENCED DAY CARE CENTERS as well. I am willing to bet you won't find a complete listing of those in the old yellow pages or even an internet search.

    It isn't just driving by but "within 1000 feet of the property" not the building!

    I haven't looked but the state may not have an easily accessable listing for the general public either....
    Not that it makes it okay, by any means, but the federal law does include a little caveat that makes this a little less painful. The law only applies when within 1000 feet of property "the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone" (USC Title 18, §922 (q)(2)(A)).

    So being armed within 1000 feet of a day care you don't know about, and which looks like an ordinary home, doesn't make you a criminal.

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