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Thread: Livingston Co, Howell PD, Fowlerville PD

  1. #1
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Hey everyone,

    I just sent the super duper Venator letter to the above mentioned departments. I will let you all know what happens, and Ill post responses here, ifI get anything back.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    I sent it to the Ann Arbor police chief, I have yet to hear back from him.

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    Exactly which super duper letter of Venator's did you send?



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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    NervisRek wrote:
    Exactly which super duper letter of Venator's did you send?

    Attached is information on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. It ismy hope that this information is helpful to you and that you will take the time to review the information and inform your officers on the legality of the open carry of a handgun in Michigan. I also hope that you work with your 911 dispatchers in regards to asking some simple question when they receive a call of a “person with a gun”. I thank you for your time and consideration in this regard and appreciate the difficult job you all do.
    Sincerely,








    That one.....





    I talked with the Chief fromHowell this morning. He was already aware of the right to Open Carry and said the worst that might is an officer would be sent to make sure there wasnt a "crazed gunman" on the loose.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Above post edited for mistake.

    This just came in from the Fowlerville PD Chief


    As you know, you will cause a concern in the community if you walk around with a weapon exposed. My question is why do you feel the need to carry the weapon openly and I am sure that you will be approached by Officers as someone will call the police related to your actions? I would like to have the opportunity to meet and talk with you prior to this happening. Thank you for your cooperation.

    Thomas A. Couling, Chief
    Fowlerville Police Department
    213 S. Grand Ave., P.O. Box 677
    Fowlerville MI. 48836
    (517) 223-8711
    FAX (517) 223-7435
    tcouling@fowlerville.org
    I plan on meeting with him within the next week or so. I will let you all know the outcome.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    tAKE SOMEONE WITH YOU AND/OR HAVE A VOICE RECORDER



    sorry caps

  7. #7
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Above post edited for mistake.

    This just came in from the Fowlerville PD Chief


    As you know, you will cause a concern in the community if you walk around with a weapon exposed. My question is why do you feel the need to carry the weapon openly and I am sure that you will be approached by Officers as someone will call the police related to your actions? I would like to have the opportunity to meet and talk with you prior to this happening. Thank you for your cooperation.

    Thomas A. Couling, Chief
    Fowlerville Police Department
    213 S. Grand Ave., P.O. Box 677
    Fowlerville MI. 48836
    (517) 223-8711
    FAX (517) 223-7435
    tcouling@fowlerville.org
    I plan on meeting with him within the next week or so. I will let you all know the outcome.
    I'd only talk with him on the phone. You don't need a F...ing reason to open carry. It's like "why do you want to wear fur, don't you know fur is murder?" "Why do you want to wear a green T-shirts?"

    I'd OC before the meeting, like I have experienced before, all they want to do is talk you out of it. If not by "reason" them by some mythical scenario on how theSWAT teams will show up, how thechildren and mothers will scream and run away, etc. If that doesn't work he will threaten you that you might bearrested for brandishing and disturbing the peace all BS. Talk with him if you want, but most likely it's a waste of time for both of you.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:
    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Above post edited for mistake.

    This just came in from the Fowlerville PD Chief


    As you know, you will cause a concern in the community if you walk around with a weapon exposed. My question is why do you feel the need to carry the weapon openly and I am sure that you will be approached by Officers as someone will call the police related to your actions? I would like to have the opportunity to meet and talk with you prior to this happening. Thank you for your cooperation.

    Thomas A. Couling, Chief
    Fowlerville Police Department
    213 S. Grand Ave., P.O. Box 677
    Fowlerville MI. 48836
    (517) 223-8711
    FAX (517) 223-7435
    tcouling@fowlerville.org
    I plan on meeting with him within the next week or so. I will let you all know the outcome.
    I'd only talk with him on the phone. You don't need a F...ing reason to open carry. It's like "why do you want to wear fur, don't you know fur is murder?" "Why do you want to wear a green T-shirts?"

    I'd OC before the meeting, like I have experienced before, all they want to do is talk you out of it. If not by "reason" them by some mythical scenario on how theSWAT teams will show up, how thechildren and mothers will scream and run away, etc. If that doesn't work he will threaten you that you might bearrested for brandishing and disturbing the peace all BS. Talk with him if you want, but most likely it's a waste of time for both of you.

    Thanks for the input. I was thinking that was about what was going to happen. I have since then changed my mind about meeting with him. My wife, who surprisingly, has become a supporter of my carrying a pistol (shes was the wife who didnt understand the need, would rather I didnt, didnt like guns, but doesnt really say much about my carrying)said pretty much the same, "It sounds like hell just try and talk you out of it."

    I was actually thinking of OC'ing while ATTENDING the meeting, but thought that might be a little much:-).

    Thanks again for the advice. It puts the final stamp on my thoughts of "should I meet with him"

    I do, however, plan on planning an OC Picnic at the local park. Ill let everyone know what I come up with and maybe we can get a handful of people out there. Thanks!

    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  9. #9
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Tucker6900 wrote:


    Thanks for the input. I was thinking that was about what was going to happen. I have since then changed my mind about meeting with him. My wife, who surprisingly, has become a supporter of my carrying a pistol (shes was the wife who didnt understand the need, would rather I didnt, didnt like guns, but doesnt really say much about my carrying)said pretty much the same, "It sounds like hell just try and talk you out of it."

    I was actually thinking of OC'ing while ATTENDING the meeting, but thought that might be a little much:-).

    Thanks again for the advice. It puts the final stamp on my thoughts of "should I meet with him"

    I do, however, plan on planning an OC Picnic at the local park. Ill let everyone know what I come up with and maybe we can get a handful of people out there. Thanks!

    Got to love a good women.

    Fowlerville is close to my neck of the woods and I would attend depending on my schedule..talk show, family plans, etc....
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  10. #10
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Above post edited for mistake.

    This just came in from the Fowlerville PD Chief


    As you know, you will cause a concern in the community if you walk around with a weapon exposed. My question is why do you feel the need to carry the weapon openly and I am sure that you will be approached by Officers as someone will call the police related to your actions? I would like to have the opportunity to meet and talk with you prior to this happening. Thank you for your cooperation.

    Thomas A. Couling, Chief
    Fowlerville Police Department
    I'd only talk with him on the phone. You don't need a F...ing reason to open carry. It's like "why do you want to wear fur, don't you know fur is murder?" "Why do you want to wear a green T-shirts?"

    I'd OC before the meeting, like I have experienced before, all they want to do is talk you out of it. If not by "reason" them by some mythical scenario on how theSWAT teams will show up, how thechildren and mothers will scream and run away, etc. If that doesn't work he will threaten you that you might bearrested for brandishing and disturbing the peace all BS. Talk with him if you want, but most likely it's a waste of time for both of you.
    . . . Thanks again for the advice. It puts the final stamp on my thoughts of "should I meet with him" . . .
    I think you should meet with him. Venator raises good points and, really, I would feel pepped up by Venator's words and ready to debate and educate a police chief. Not in the sense of confrontation, but to discuss their issues and discuss how their fears are overblown. If you don't influence himto self-examine hissuppositions toward a more rational way of thinking, then at least you'll demonstrate to him that OC folks aren't afraid to engage authority in a respectful but candid manner.

    I think it's a win either way. If he's thoughtful, you'll cause him to reflect. If he's a bigot, and will remain that way, then there's at least the satisfaction and value of confronting bigotry.

    No one can talk you out of a choice, if that choice is correct and well-justified right?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    DanM wrote:
    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Above post edited for mistake.

    This just came in from the Fowlerville PD Chief


    As you know, you will cause a concern in the community if you walk around with a weapon exposed. My question is why do you feel the need to carry the weapon openly and I am sure that you will be approached by Officers as someone will call the police related to your actions? I would like to have the opportunity to meet and talk with you prior to this happening. Thank you for your cooperation.

    Thomas A. Couling, Chief
    Fowlerville Police Department
    I'd only talk with him on the phone. You don't need a F...ing reason to open carry. It's like "why do you want to wear fur, don't you know fur is murder?" "Why do you want to wear a green T-shirts?"

    I'd OC before the meeting, like I have experienced before, all they want to do is talk you out of it. If not by "reason" them by some mythical scenario on how theSWAT teams will show up, how thechildren and mothers will scream and run away, etc. If that doesn't work he will threaten you that you might bearrested for brandishing and disturbing the peace all BS. Talk with him if you want, but most likely it's a waste of time for both of you.
    . . . Thanks again for the advice. It puts the final stamp on my thoughts of "should I meet with him" . . .
    I think you should meet with him. Venator raises good points and, really, I would feel pepped up by Venator's words and ready to debate and educate a police chief. Not in the sense of confrontation, but to discuss their issues and discuss how their fears are overblown. If you don't influence himto self-examine hissuppositions toward a more rational way of thinking, then at least you'll demonstrate to him that OC folks aren't afraid to engage authority in a respectful but candid manner.

    I think it's a win either way. If he's thoughtful, you'll cause him to reflect. If he's a bigot, and will remain that way, then there's at least the satisfaction and value of confronting bigotry.

    No one can talk you out of a choice, if that choice is correct and well-justified right?
    He's already sent them the packet that addresses the "issues" and "fears". Since there's nothing more to discuss, chances are that the only reason the Chief wants to meet is because he wants to intimidate Tucker6900 out of OC'ing.

    There really isn't much else to "meet" about, since that packet contains any information and answers to any questions or concerns that could arise. That packet was well written, well thought out, and professionally done. If that packet (and the fact that Tucker6900 contacted the PD beforehand therefore giving them a heads up) doesn't demonstrate that "OC folks aren't afraid to engage authority in a respectful but candid manner" then, having a sit down probably won't either.

    He's already talked with the Chief, and the Chief has already made some of the tired old comments that indicate that he isn't really willing to listen, or self-examine. When someone (a police chief) looks at you and says, "Why do you want to OC?” it is a condescending way of criticizing you for that choice (Okay, sometimes it's just someone looking to seek further knowledge, but since the packet addresses those concerns, we know that isn't the case here).

    Here's a thought. If the Chief really does want to "talk about it" (yeah, right), invite him to come here, sign up, identify himself, and open a discussion with our members. That would be a prefect opportunity to talk about it. I doubt he'll do it since it his power and authority won't transfer over well to this board, and since I don't think he is interested in any open discussion on the topic (I'll allow that I only have what's been reported here, and therefore could be wrong).

    Here, he has nothing to loose, and something to gain. Most (if not all) the members here are very respectful, so it wouldn't be a hostile environment (especially since one of the movements goals is to open a dialogue with LE). He has nothing to loose because most of the people who are members, or are lurkers won't be convinced to OC because of what he says here, nor will they be discouraged to OC by what he says here. What he gains (if he so chooses to take anything away from such a discussion) is that he will open further dialogue, and a good relationship with the OC community. This will in turn strengthen communication and relations with Him (and his department), and the community.

    I personally believe that many of these chiefs, and PD's think they can actually prevent the OC movement from happening. I'm guessing they really don't want it to happen because they just don't like the idea of citizens OC'ing (for whatever reason/s). I've been watching this board (as well as others) for almost a year now, and can say that OC is growing, not fading. I remember telling someone over a year ago that OC is coming to Michigan, and specifically Grand Rapids. IOW, it's not something that they will stop. Since it's here to stay, it would be better if the chief's and PD's opened up communication with those who are involved. That would help prevent an "us v. them" atmosphere, and in turn help the PD's operate more effectively. Thatwould be a win win.




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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    ghostrider wrote:
    . . . When someone (a police chief) looks at you and says, "Why do you want to OC?” it is a condescending way of criticizing you for that choice (Okay, sometimes it's just someone looking to seek further knowledge, but since the packet addresses those concerns, we know that isn't the case here). . . .
    Good post, I agree with what you wrote.

    And I still would love to confront a bigot posing the above question to me so I could look 'em in the eye and reply, "Because a whole cop would betoo heavy."
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    A better one would be "Because you won't fit in my holster!"

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    Good post, I agree with what you wrote. And I still would love to confront a bigot posing the above question to me so I could look 'em in the eye and reply, "Because a whole cop would be too heavy."
    Problem is, most of the time, those bigots don't care what you have to say, nor are they willing to listen, and therefore isn't worth your time. Other than satisfying your personal desire to tell one of them off, it does nothing else, and can even project you in a bad light, because you can come off as someone looking for confrontation (doesn't really look good). Not only that, but such behavior also projects an image of someone who is negotiating. That’s why the Chief is questioning him in such a manner, and telling him that he wants to talk. He’s negotiating.

    I agree with Venator. There is really nothing to be gained by it. It might be self-gratifying to “tell someone off”, but to others, it usually just makes you look bad.


    This is a post by RussP (mod at GlockTalk). I think he sums it up nicely, and agree with his point.

    First, OC is NOT for everyone.

    Most, probably, should not open carry. Some are iffy.

    Why?

    Some do not feel comfortable carrying exposed. Makes sense. There are times and places I feel the same way.

    Some know and understand the tactical element of surprise and do not want to give that up. "You won't know I have it until your actions cause me to use my firearm, not show, not draw - use." I agree.

    Some believe an openly carried firearm puts a target on their forehead/COM/back and a bad guy will see and shoot them first. Well, since no one knows of documented cases of this happening, none have been posted on Glock Talk, this is a perception of what could happen.

    I do not disagree that their are bad guys out there who want nothing more than to kill. Someone with a firearm is a bonus. They get to kill and keep the prize.

    Some of us can avoid places where that would more probably happen. Some cannot. To open carry there would be a very poor choice.

    And remember, what was a safer place yesterday may not be today. Bad guys do move around to more lucrative target areas.

    Some people are not comfortable answering, "Why are you carrying a GUN?" They should conceal.

    Some people do not have the temperament to answer, "Why are you carrying a GUN?" They come back with, "It's none of your "expletive" business!" They should conceal, and conceal well.

    Some people do not want to be labeled/called a 2nd Amendment gun toting activist. They should not open carry.

    They should practice their activism with their letters, calls, emails to those who make the laws and rules that infringe on our Right to Carry, and in response to Letters to the Editor, Editorials, and opinion pieces in print and on the Internet.

    Some people believe if they are seen carrying a firearm everyone will think they are trying to make a political statement. They do not want that label. They should not open carry.

    Some people believe if they open carry it will intimidate/scare people and they do not want to do that. They should not open carry.

    Some people believe if they open carry it will cause others to call the police even though no law is being violated. They do not want to talk to the police for whatever reason. They should not open carry.

    Some people believe or live in areas where open carry draws the attention of law enforcement. They want to avoid that. They should not open carry.

    Did I miss anyone who should not open carry? **********************************

    Congratulations! Choosing to carry for your personal protection is a good choice. Choosing open carry, welllllll

    .... If you open carry, here are some thoughts of mine...

    If you open carry because you want to show off your barbecue pistol, your ultra-custom holster/belt/mag carrier, save those for the social gathering of fellow firearm aficionados. Few others will notice, and those that do may just think it is gaudy. Carry concealed.

    If you open carry because you think it enhances your manhood, carry concealed. I don't think carrying even a Buntline Special will help you.

    If you need a pistol on your hip to show everyone you're the Alpha Male, carry concealed. You're not on Animal Kingdom

    If you think a pistol on your hip in plain view provides a force field of protection, scares away evil people, that is a dangerous mindset. Carry concealed.

    If you open carry to make a political statement, and you are on GT asking, "Can I carry here - or there," carry concealed until you know your laws better than anyone.

    If you open carry in areas and locations where you will certainly draw attention to provoke law enforcement, to test their knowledge of the law and you then feel bad when you are ignored, conceal carry. You're intentionally trolling for trouble.

    When you wake in the morning, strap on the ol' pistol and secretly hope someone notices and makes a big deal about it, your mindset is wrong. Go ahead and conceal the pistol.

    There are more, "If you open carry because....carry concealed." That's enough for now.

    If you open carry, remember, you are representing every other American who carries.

    Think before you open carry. If you can relate to any of the categories I mentioned, re-think your decision.

    Look in the mirror, actually look in a mirror. Ask yourself, "Why am I open carrying?" Don't try and BS yourself. You know the real answer. ****************************************

    Ever hear the expression, "First impressions are everything"? If you open carry, your appearance and demeanor will influence how someone reacts to seeing that humongous cannon on your hip.

    Think like this. If you saw yourself carrying, would "you" elevate your alert status? Would "you" make yourself nervous? If the answer is maybe or yes, something needs to change, doesn't it. Maybe you should carry concealed! ***************************************

    Okay, what about those who open carry because the law says it is the only way to legally carry?

    There is no law against open carry. The law says the age for possession of a firearm is less than the age for concealed carry. Open carry is the only option. Respect the Right you have. Carry responsibly The consequences could be horrendous. You are representing the rest of us. Don't screw it up.

    Here in Virginia, we cannot conceal carry in restaurants serving alcohol. That is how I started open carrying. For me, there is no other option. ***************************************

    Now, what about those who open carry just because they can and it fits their lifestyle. They have no agenda. It's comfortable and fits into the norms of their communities. Enjoy! *************************************** Then there are those who open carry just when and where appropriate. They have no agenda. They carry where allowed by law. They carry discretely. They dress so as not to draw attention. They project confidence, not arrogance. They smile and nod when passing people. They don't lock eyeballs with every person they pass. They are curteous. They show respect to those around them. They open carry.

    They answer questions about their choice to carry simply and calmly. They may talk about how they came by their decision, if asked.

    They are not flustered by animated opposition to their carrying. They do not insult those challenging them remembering others may be watching. Rational behavior trumps.

    You will not read about these people on the internet or in the news.

    Well, not unless some ignorant individuals or those with an agenda create a problem.

    Since there are many, many open carry social gatherings monthly, and only a couple make the news, these events involve only a small minority of the carrying public. Why are not more of the open carry gatherings in the news? Because nothing unusual occurs. ******************************

    What about those who do go out looking for confrontations? They go out of their way to draw attention to themselves. They are arrested, on purpose.

    These individuals have their following. I am not among them. ********************************

    As to "open carry hurts 'the cause'", open carry is part of the cause. It is more important in states where there are no laws preventing it.

    Again, open carry is not for everyone and some should not open carry.

    These are just my thoughts and observations.
    emphasis added.

    http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost...p;postcount=11

  15. #15
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Here's a thought. If the Chief really does want to "talk about it" (yeah, right), invite him to come here, sign up, identify himself, and open a discussion with our members. That would be a prefect opportunity to talk about it. I doubt he'll do it since it his power and authority won't transfer over well to this board, and since I don't think he is interested in any open discussion on the topic (I'll allow that I only have what's been reported here, and therefore could be wrong).
    Already done. I sent him the web address and asked him to join us here. Yeah, I doubt it will happen, but hes got it.

    So far, I have carried in Walmart(we have a new shiny store in town!), the local restaurant, Sunoco, "Dr. Tim's" Chiropractic office, the local movie store, Rosati's Grocery and numerous other places. And guess what!?! Nobody was running or screaming, no police incidents. A few looksand doubletakes, but nothing major. I did however, get a comment from an older man, probably inhis 70's/80'sto the tune of "Thats a nice looking piece there officer!" And after about 5 minutes of convincing him I was indeed NOT an Officer, we had a nice talk about Open Carry. He had heard of it, but never saw anybody with the "(enter explicit term for male genitalia here)" to actually do it. I know they will never be, but I hope all encounters go that well.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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