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Thread: An open letter to the LEO's reading/lurking here...

  1. #1
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    First and foremost I want to say this IS NOT a LEO bashing thread and if it turns into one I will ask that it be deleted.

    We all know LEO's read this board. Some post openly, some don't. That is fine, there are plenty of of other people who do that too. I have met several LEO's who read this board and I have the utmost respect for them and the job they do. It's one I wouldn't want to do myself.

    I am convinced nearly all cops are decent folks. There is of course the occasional bad apple, but that will happen with any group. Ladies and gentlemen of law enforcement I have to wonder why we are still having problems with OC?

    Not only has it been clearly established as legal in this state, many agencies have already trained their officers on the subject. I think nearly every LEO in this state knows OC is legal.

    This is not about "us versus them" or common citizens trying to power trip. It's an exercise of a right. Yet we as a community keep running into walls of ignorance, or internal cultures that disregard the law and impose individual viewpoints and opinions where none should be applied.

    Officers, in case you haven't noticed this is quickly becoming the year of the lawsuit. We have an excellent attorney who is more than willing to vigorously work on these cases, and has wonderful track record of winning, and in fact is a former LEO himself. As a group the OC'rs in this state are simply not rolling over when what should have been a simple stop and chitchat (if that) becomes an ugly incident with officers drawing their weapons on unsuspecting citizens and/or handcuffing them while detaining them for indeterminate periods of times for no clear reason.

    To the best of my knowledge nobody on this board has been charged with any crime when detained for simply OCing, and yet it seems every month there is one or two ugly stories of a LEO encounter that went bad. I have been on the receiving end of two such stops myself, and still can't understand it. Olympia realized the need for greater training and has done a fine job of training their officers about OC. I cannot understand why other departments will not do the same, it creates less friction between citizens and LEO's and greatly reduces the liability of various departments and individual officers.

    There have been too many cases of LEO's drawing weapons on citizens who were not exhibiting threatening behavior. If this trend keeps up, something bad is bound to happen sooner or later. Murphy will stick his nose into this, and there will be a tragic accident, and I don't think all the spin doctors, and cheap suits in the department will be able to cover it up.

    It's no secret cops read this board, and I'm hoping you guys will take a moment to realize that the open carry movement isn't going anywhere, that it is legal, and that we are willing to fight for our rights in the court system.

    A few bad stops should not tarnish all of law enforcement, but sadly they do. Every time a cop pulls a gun on a guy, or cuffs him, or detains him for simply OCing it darkens the shine of law enforcement a little bit more. I want to trust cops, and for a while I didn't, but I trust the local cops now. Will I trust Puyallup PD if I go there? Nope.

    So I'd like the officers reading this to please consider we are all on the same side here; that of law and order. We don't want to break any laws, nor are we. We are just bearing arms for personal defense as is so very carefully enshrined in the State and Federal Constitutions.

    There are plenty of good and decent cops out there who do the right thing every day and never get acknowledged for it. For that I thank you. There are plenty of decent cops who sometimes screw up. It happens. We would just like to see it happen less and less with OC. Screw ups are costly for agencies and dangerous for citizens.

    So I guess where I am going with all of this, given the growing OC movement, given as every law enforcement agency will at least give lip service to acknowledging the legality of OC, is "Why?" Why are there still problems?

    For every LEO out there reading this we don't want to fight you through complaints or lawsuits, and I don't think you really want that either.

    Hopefully we can keep working with departments to greatly lessen further negative incidents. Maybe Jarhead's detainment in Puyallup can be the last such incident this year?



  2. #2
    Regular Member mtlhdtodd's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, with the more recent incidents, I get that old saying about leading a horse to waterreplaying in my head as I read you excelent post.

    Todd



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    Why? IMO it is due to the still large amount of missinformation flowing around.

    There is a gun range here in Spokane that up until this last month was telling people OC was illegal... A GUN RANGE...

    There is a lot of false information out there and it has an effect on everyone, including LEO... Not everything gets covered in their training. They aren't becoming lawyers, so they shouldn't be expected to know everything...

    I am not saying ignorance of the law is an excuse... But it is easy to see why it still occurs...



  4. #4
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    Makes me more inclined to OC rather than CC, just so that more people will know that normal people carry guns, and make it more the norm. OC is just so rare around here that people sometimes freakout when they see a gun, especially since the media often makes the gun look evil. It'd be nice to see that changed.

  5. #5
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    holeinhead wrote:
    Makes me more inclined to OC rather than CC, just so that more people will know that normal people carry guns, and make it more the norm. OC is just so rare around here that people sometimes freakout when they see a gun, especially since the media often makes the gun look evil. It'd be nice to see that changed.
    +1 kajillion (is that a word? :P)

    The only way we are going to get over this "hump" of LEOs pushing back against OC is to be even more persistent.......do not allow these issues to scare you into hiding your rights.....this is what they want, and if you allow this to persuade you, they win. You will lose your rights you are not exercising.......this should be a call for all who care about your freedoms and making sure "the right thing" happens, to OC even more than you did before. I know I will be making some stops in Puyallup tonight and I WILL be OCing........

  6. #6
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    I know I will be making some stops in Puyallup tonight and I WILL be OCing........
    Careful they don't take your firearm and than go shoot it... :what:

  7. #7
    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
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    Take the recorder.

  8. #8
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    mtlhdtodd wrote:
    Unfortunately, with the more recent incidents, I get that old saying about leading a horse to waterreplaying in my head as I read you excelent post.

    Todd

    First well said sv_libertarian
    Second the last time I had a horse I couldn't make drink I drowned him.

  9. #9
    Regular Member CrossBow33's Avatar
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    Excellent post!
    “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire,
    a troublesome servant and a fearful master.” - George Washington

  10. #10
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    sv, this report absolutely says it all. The highlight of the whole post was that we don't want to fight LE in the legal forum. We just want the confidence that when we OC we will not have an ugly LEO encounter. I have confirmed the policy with my own community, Ferndale, and they are up to speed on it.

    Our further task is educating the general public. A lot of people really could care less, as long as we don't break the lawby using our weapons for intimidation. Then there are the gun-haters, and it's probably a waste of time even trying to convince those. It bothers me a lot that there are so many businesses that have no-firearms policies. Until wetest them with an encounter with management or security, or hear about them on this list or elsewhere we never know where they stand.

    Our greatest challenge is overcoming the false image so many people have of us,as abunch of wackos ready to gun down anyone who looks crosseyed at us. It's called SALESMANSHIP. Our job is to SELL our idea to a sometimes-unbelieving public, and that includes store managers, LE and AuntTillie buying her cat foodin the grocery store. People who don't know about guns are instinctively afraid of them, and of us because we have them. We need to overcome that fear by presenting our case as well as we know how. If the person walks away and then files a complaint, or calls 911, we have failed in our sales job.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Well said SV and Richard.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  12. #12
    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Richard6218 wrote:
    Our job is to SELL our idea to a sometimes-unbelieving public, ...
    Agree. I was renewing my DL at the Federal Way DOL. A younger guy behind me asked me if carrying like that ever caused me any problem. They just happened to call his number and I just happened to have a WGR pamphlet in my back pocket. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, other than he CC'd an XD40. Those pamphlets sure come in handy.

  13. #13
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    Richard6218 wrote:
    SNIP Our job is to SELL our idea to a sometimes-unbelieving public,
    +1
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  14. #14
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    mtlhdtodd wrote:
    Unfortunately, with the more recent incidents, I get that old saying about leading a horse to waterreplaying in my head as I read you excelent post.

    Todd

    Or as sometimes say..."You can lead a man to knowledge, but you cannot make him THINK!"



  15. #15
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    BobCav, you are right about the proverbial leading the horse to water. I referred to those as the inveterate gun-haters, and with those we are wasting our time. Our target market is the group of people who just don't think about guns, as well as LE who may have their own agenda, or are ignorant of the law (!!??). In the last of these, I'm really referring to the few LEO's and departments whoare not up to speed on the RCW sections that apply to us. With them, it's just a matter of time, and eventually they all will catch up. The result will be a much less tense environment for us and for them.

    SELL, guys, SELL, SELL!!

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