Odd question.

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thx997303 wrote:

And when you consider that the larger ball is made with the same material as the smaller bullet, then yes the .44 cal ball has more mass, and therefore more momentum then the smaller bullet.

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I'll go through the other math a little later when I have some time (got some honey-do's to do right now, and honey is getting insistent), but the ball doesn't necessarily have more mass. It's larger in diameter, but slugs are elongated so may have more total volume of lead, and more mass.

If you don't know the mass of the ball, it's easy to calculate. The volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi r^3 and the radius of a .454 caliber ball is .57658 cm, so the volume of the ball is .80291 cm^3. Lead has a density of 11.34 g/cm^3, so the ball has a mass of 9.105 g, which is 141 gr.

So, if the .38 Special slug you're comparing to is 150 gr, then the slug is heavier than the .454 ball. Since the slug also has smaller cross section, it'll lose velocity slower than the ball, and penetrate better.

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thx997303 wrote:

Oh, I see.

So, since I know I did it wrong, and got the wrong number (huge)

Can somebody give me a hand on this?

Given a .454 diameter lead ball at we'll say 300 meters/sec

Versus

a 150 gr .355 diameter bullet at the same velocity.

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With those numbers:

Kinetic energy of 141 gr lead ball @ 300 m/s = 410 J or 302 lb.ft.
Momentum of 141 gr lead ball @ 300 m/s = 2.73 N s

Kinetic energy of 150 gr bullet @ 300 m/s = 437 J or 322 lb. ft.
Momentum of 150 gr bullet @ 300 m/s = 2.92 N s

Of course, there's no reason to assume the same velocity for both. Also, 150 gr is pretty heavy for a .38 special. Lowering the bullet to 130 gr but keeping kinetic energy constant at 437 J yields a momentum of 2.71 N s, slightly lower than the .454 ball. However, I don't really see how momentum matters. It's kinetic energy divided by cross sectional area that determines penetration depth.

The ball will have a disadvantage as range increases, too. It's less aerodynamic shape and larger cross-section will increase air resistance, causing it to slow faster.

A .355 JHP retains its narrower cross-section while flying, so it doesn't lose as much energy in the air. Upon impact, if it expands it will probably have a LARGER cross section than the ball, expanding out to between .6 and .7 inches in diameter.

My experience with black powder hunting is that the lead balls retain their shape pretty well, even when fired from a rifle. My experience consists of only two examples (both elk), though. Personally, for black powder hunting I shoot .44 Hornady XTP JHPs in plastic sabots to make them work in my .50 rifle. The greater length and narrower cross section of the .44 bullet provides better range and accuracy, and the expanding JHP makes a bigger hole than a .50 ball would.

It's no accident that modern muzzleloader hunting bullets look a lot more like modern cartridge bullets than round balls. We've moved away from round lead balls because they're not as effective.

Assuming that it's true that your .44 has kinetic energy equivalent to a .38 special (with some barrel length and some load -- there are a lot of variables being ignored here), the .454 lead ball will be less effective than a .355 JHP. Less accurate, less range, and probably less damage. It might have more penetration than an expanded .355 JHP. As you said, you really need ballistics gelatin to find out what the comparative penetration is. I know the .38 is a little on the weak side, so I'd expect the .44 Navy to be about the same.

Really, though, the 1851 Navy killed plenty of people and I'm sure plenty of animals as well in its time. Less effective doesn't mean ineffective.

As I said before, my biggest concern about a cap and ball SD weapon is reliability, even in Utah.

Edit: Fixed an important typo. I meant to type 130 gr but typed 150 gr. I've bolded that part.

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thx997303 wrote:

I know that diameter has nothing to do with momentum, and weight and mass are different, but they tend to be related. And when you consider that the larger ball is made with the same material as the smaller bullet, then yes the .44 cal ball has more mass, and therefore more momentum then the smaller bullet.

At least this is the way I see it.

And IMO energy transfer has nothing to do with lethality. Temporary cavitation IMO does not do damage.

While energy and momentum have something to do with penetration and expansion, it is the wound channel resulting from the penetration and expansion that does the damage.

The kinetic energy and momentum merely facilitate the penetration and expansion.
But the energy transfer itself does nothing to wound.

Again, all of this is just my opinion.

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Seems like the kinetic energy transfer would directly effect how much shock is delivered to a person's organs (like getting tapped by your buddy vs a closed fist punch to the chest). Don't think of the blunt force trauma in that case, but how much different the "rattling" of your organs would be and the shock that is transferred through your body.

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xRapidDavex wrote:

thx997303 wrote:

I know that diameter has nothing to do with momentum, and weight and mass are different, but they tend to be related. And when you consider that the larger ball is made with the same material as the smaller bullet, then yes the .44 cal ball has more mass, and therefore more momentum then the smaller bullet.

At least this is the way I see it.

And IMO energy transfer has nothing to do with lethality. Temporary cavitation IMO does not do damage.

While energy and momentum have something to do with penetration and expansion, it is the wound channel resulting from the penetration and expansion that does the damage.

The kinetic energy and momentum merely facilitate the penetration and expansion.
But the energy transfer itself does nothing to wound.

Again, all of this is just my opinion.

Click to expand...

Seems like the kinetic energy transfer would directly effect how much shock is delivered to a person's organs (like getting tapped by your buddy vs a closed fist punch to the chest). Don't think of the blunt force trauma in that case, but how much different the "rattling" of your organs would be and the shock that is transferred through your body.

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Well, rattling your organs would probably about as bad as jumping on a trampoline.

The shock manifests itself in temporary cavitation. And I don't believe that temporary cavitation around the wound channel does anything. If it manages to damage the tissue around the wound channel enough to become harmful, then it usually becomes permanent cavitation. IMO.

As I said, the kinetic energy is instrumental in penetration and expansion. That is how kinetic energy is lethal. IMO.

The shock that kills people is the self induced kind.

Anyway, Swilden let's take a better example of a .38 spcl bullet. I didn't do any research on that.

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thx997303 wrote:

As I said, the kinetic energy is instrumental in penetration and expansion. That is how kinetic energy is lethal. IMO.

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Agreed.

However, there is evidence that the shock wave created by dumping kinetic energy into the body can produce incapacitation effects when it strikes the central nervous system (CNS). This incapacitation isn't fatal, but when it happens it's much FASTER than any incapacitation caused by non-CNS organ damage or blood loss.

If there were a way to reliably create a shock to the CNS that guaranteed fast and long-lasting incapacitation, that would be the ideal self-defense weapon.

In reality, hydrostatic shock-induced incapacitation appears to be fast but unreliable. So for self-defense our first priority is doing enough direct damage to cause massive bleeding, since that's the most reliable way for a center-mass shot to incapacitate relatively quickly. A deep, wide wound channel (including both permanent stretch cavity and permanent cavity) gives us the best odds of causing massive bleeding. Once we've got that, then it's a good idea to also try to maximize kinetic energy and peak shock, in the hope that we might get shock-induced incapacitation and the desirable immediate stop.

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I believe we have reached an Accord!

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LOL, it logged in to my wife's account.

Anyway, what she said.