Eeyore
Regular Member
imported post
I figured I'd give LEO229 a break and let everyone rage at me for a while.
I always hate to agree with a moron, especially when they end up being right but for the wrong reason(s). One of the major logical flaws in the arguments of gun controllers is that they don’t differentiate between guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens and those in the hands of criminals. They argue more guns = more crime—or at least more gun crime. Gun rights advocates believe that criminals will get guns somehow, regardless of the laws-- gun control doesn’t work, so don’t bother.
This is where I have to agree (partially) with the “bad guys”: more legal guns in circulation make it easier for criminals to get guns. Consider several scenarios:
1. Straw purchase. A person with no criminal record purchases a gun, and then illegally transfers it to a criminal. Obviously, the purchaser is now a criminal, but they are very unlikely to ever be caught and prosecuted. This crime was made easier by the fact that there are plenty of [legal] gun stores and it is easier to [legally] purchase a gun that it might otherwise be.
2. Theft. Burglars find an unsecured weapon in the house they’re robbing, and take it. If the homeowner hadn’t [legally] owned that gun, the criminals would not have come into possession of it. Breaking into a gun store can net criminals a big haul of guns.
3. Uncle Joe, a law-abiding citizen, has [legally] owned a handgun for years. Following his death, Aunt Nelly (who never cared for guns) hides it away somewhere (the garage, the attic, or a drawer) just to be rid of it. However, their young nephew Bobby discovers it. Years later, Bobby becomes dirt-bag teenager who decides he wants to put the “bang” in gang-banger. So he pays a visit to Aunt Nelly and swipes the gun when Aunt Nelly is distracted.
4. The Jonesboro shootings. I forget if the kids knew where the key to the gun cabinet was, or if they just broke the glass door.
5. A criminal buys a gun in a person-to-person transfer (via classified ad or the “gun show loophole”). I know, I know, it accounts for only a tiny percentage of gun sales and an even tinier percentage of guns used in crimes. But it does happen, so it’s still an example of a legal gun finding its way into criminal hands.
In all these cases, it is relatively easy for the criminal to obtain a gun because there are plenty of legal guns out there. If the law-abiding citizens hadn’t had the guns to start with, the criminal would have had to find another, more difficult way to get them.
Ironically, the prevalence of guns in the hands of criminals drives law-abiding citizens to purchase guns to defend themselves. This puts even more guns into circulation, some percentage of which will end up in the wrong hands. The cycle feeds on itself.
Now that everybody on this board is p1$$ed off at me, I also partially agree with the “good guys” that the reverse is certainly not true: eliminating all legal guns would not prevent criminals from getting guns. An outright handgun ban wouldn’t solve the problem (even if it was constitutional)—there are millions already in circulation, and a ban would just set the stage for a black market and gun smuggling.*
So how do we deal with this reality? Obviously, it’s our responsibility as gun owners to always secure our weapons to deal with scenarios 2-4. I can’t come up with a palatable solution for the others. Without some kind of registry, there’s not much that can be done about straw purchasers (scenario 1). “Smart gun” technology would help (assuming it actually worked), but I’m sure criminals would find a way around that, too.
Clear on the left. Clear on the right. The range is clear. Commence :cuss:!
* This generates a darkly-amusing mental image for me: imagine the illegal gun market doing to Austria what drugs have done to Colombia, with gangs of Glock traffickers operating with impunity from remote, picturesqueschlossen[/i] in the Alps, and the US Coast Guard intercepting shipping containers to look for Steyrs hidden inside nutcrackers and H&Kparts melted intothe Toblerone. OK, so my sense of humor can be pretty weird sometimes….
I figured I'd give LEO229 a break and let everyone rage at me for a while.
I always hate to agree with a moron, especially when they end up being right but for the wrong reason(s). One of the major logical flaws in the arguments of gun controllers is that they don’t differentiate between guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens and those in the hands of criminals. They argue more guns = more crime—or at least more gun crime. Gun rights advocates believe that criminals will get guns somehow, regardless of the laws-- gun control doesn’t work, so don’t bother.
This is where I have to agree (partially) with the “bad guys”: more legal guns in circulation make it easier for criminals to get guns. Consider several scenarios:
1. Straw purchase. A person with no criminal record purchases a gun, and then illegally transfers it to a criminal. Obviously, the purchaser is now a criminal, but they are very unlikely to ever be caught and prosecuted. This crime was made easier by the fact that there are plenty of [legal] gun stores and it is easier to [legally] purchase a gun that it might otherwise be.
2. Theft. Burglars find an unsecured weapon in the house they’re robbing, and take it. If the homeowner hadn’t [legally] owned that gun, the criminals would not have come into possession of it. Breaking into a gun store can net criminals a big haul of guns.
3. Uncle Joe, a law-abiding citizen, has [legally] owned a handgun for years. Following his death, Aunt Nelly (who never cared for guns) hides it away somewhere (the garage, the attic, or a drawer) just to be rid of it. However, their young nephew Bobby discovers it. Years later, Bobby becomes dirt-bag teenager who decides he wants to put the “bang” in gang-banger. So he pays a visit to Aunt Nelly and swipes the gun when Aunt Nelly is distracted.
4. The Jonesboro shootings. I forget if the kids knew where the key to the gun cabinet was, or if they just broke the glass door.
5. A criminal buys a gun in a person-to-person transfer (via classified ad or the “gun show loophole”). I know, I know, it accounts for only a tiny percentage of gun sales and an even tinier percentage of guns used in crimes. But it does happen, so it’s still an example of a legal gun finding its way into criminal hands.
In all these cases, it is relatively easy for the criminal to obtain a gun because there are plenty of legal guns out there. If the law-abiding citizens hadn’t had the guns to start with, the criminal would have had to find another, more difficult way to get them.
Ironically, the prevalence of guns in the hands of criminals drives law-abiding citizens to purchase guns to defend themselves. This puts even more guns into circulation, some percentage of which will end up in the wrong hands. The cycle feeds on itself.
Now that everybody on this board is p1$$ed off at me, I also partially agree with the “good guys” that the reverse is certainly not true: eliminating all legal guns would not prevent criminals from getting guns. An outright handgun ban wouldn’t solve the problem (even if it was constitutional)—there are millions already in circulation, and a ban would just set the stage for a black market and gun smuggling.*
So how do we deal with this reality? Obviously, it’s our responsibility as gun owners to always secure our weapons to deal with scenarios 2-4. I can’t come up with a palatable solution for the others. Without some kind of registry, there’s not much that can be done about straw purchasers (scenario 1). “Smart gun” technology would help (assuming it actually worked), but I’m sure criminals would find a way around that, too.
Clear on the left. Clear on the right. The range is clear. Commence :cuss:!
* This generates a darkly-amusing mental image for me: imagine the illegal gun market doing to Austria what drugs have done to Colombia, with gangs of Glock traffickers operating with impunity from remote, picturesqueschlossen[/i] in the Alps, and the US Coast Guard intercepting shipping containers to look for Steyrs hidden inside nutcrackers and H&Kparts melted intothe Toblerone. OK, so my sense of humor can be pretty weird sometimes….