The "pit" near Olympia needs to be shut down

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

Priveldge only or why would you need a license to do itand for the younger folksa bunch of training or wait until you are 18.

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Oh, my.

Bear, you're the last guy I would have thought would buy into that fraud. You've been tricked.

The only reason they (government) tell us its a privilege is so they can thoroughly regulate and tax it. And fit it into their existing scheme.

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I would NOT drink adult beverages while engaged in the purposeful activity of shooting firearms and yes I agree that it is stupid.

I do think there is a big difference between imbibing an adult beverage when you KNOW you are going to be shooting, handling a gun and for me at least every time I shoot, training, and when I am out having dinner and have a statistically less than 1% chance of being in anything resembling a lethal situation. To clarify and so I do not appear a hypocrite following my comments in the drinking while OC/CC thread I'll explain.

I always wear my seatbelt when I driving on the public roads, but if I am just moving the car in my driveway, or around my buddy's garage or sometimes driving on private roads on my family's or friend's rural property, I don't always put it on. If I am on a trail or the road on a motorcycle I wear helmet. Moving it at slow speeds for short distances on the farm probably not. If I am scuba diving for a period of time to depth I am very careful to plan the dive, set the bezel on my watch as a backup timer, make notes on my slate as to starting PSI in the tank and numerous other things. If I am jumping in to go down 20 feet in calm water to pick up a weight I can see in the sand that someone dropped on the bottom, as long as I have a minimal amount of air I'll just jump in and I could even free dive with a snorkel to that depth and it just isn't' particularly risky.

To me these are similar situations to having an adult beverage when shooting or carrying a firearm. Actively shooting a firearm is the same as driving on the public roads or going on a planned scuba dive. Carrying a firearm to a restaurant in a much safer than national average city, with a statistical much less than 1% chance of needing that firearm, fits the other scenarios. It also depends on a lot of specifics. There are cities and places in which I might have 1-2 adult beverages while carrying to dinner over 1-2 hours. There are other places I will not because I think the risk of using my firearm is higher than usual. Not high or I wouldn't be there, but higher than my day to day world. Not because I think that I will be significantly impaired by 1-2 drinks, but rather because it just simply is not worth the most minute extra risk. Such risk assessment is rather individual and again, dependent on numerous factors.

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I didnt think I was going to get involved, but I also didnt think that alcohol and guns would be talked about in such a manner as this. Something that reduces inhibition and slows reaction time should not be mixed with something that requires situational awareness and quick reflexes. As to Bear, I dont know how old he is, but he definently has some wisdom. His profession and his wifes current profession allow him to probably see the consequences of what happens when alcohol and firearms mix and he was just sharing that wisdom with the rest of this board. Plus, alcohol does not affect everyone in the same way. If you happen to be able to hold alcohol and firearms together does not mean that it should be advocated to a wide audience.

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I couldn't resist

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Citizen wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

Priveldge only or why would you need a license to do itand for the younger folksa bunch of training or wait until you are 18.

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Oh, my.

Bear, you're the last guy I would have thought would buy into that fraud. You've been tricked.

The only reason they (government) tell us its a privilege is so they can thoroughly regulate and tax it. And fit it into their existing scheme.

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Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to drive a car or any vehicle for that matter?

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Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to drive a car or any vehicle for that matter?

It doesn't. Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to cut your own hair?

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deanf wrote:

Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to drive a car or any vehicle for that matter?

It doesn't. Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to cut your own hair?

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Again, not quit the same thing is it? One you do to yourself or have done to yourself only. The other effects other people depending on how you go about doing it and that's why it is regulated. By your contention, driving drunk is OK.

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Let's stick to the topic at hand, shall we? The topic is (even if you don't realize it): do we have only the rights specifically enumerated to us in the Constitution?

This seems to be your contention.

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deanf wrote:

Let's stick to the topic at hand, shall we? The topic is (even if you don't realize it): do we have only the rights specifically enumerated to us in the Constitution?

This seems to be your contention.

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Where the hell did I say that? You claim you can do anything you want, whether it is in the Constitution or not. Everything is your "right". I'm telling you that freedom in this country is"limited. You have the right to do as you wish until you interfer with someone else's right to do as they wish. Of course the right to do as they wish is also limited just as yours is. You are very self centered in your view of rights in this country.

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Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to drive a car or any vehicle for that matter?

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That question implies that you believe that no rights exist except for those specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

Let's focus like a laser beam, please. Do you, or do you not contend that only those rights enumerated in the Constitution belong to citizens of the U.S.?

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deanf wrote:

Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to drive a car or any vehicle for that matter?

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That question implies that you believe that no rights exist except for those specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

Let's focus like a laser beam, please. Do you, or do you not contend that only those rights enumerated in the Constitution belong to citizens of the U.S.?

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Please read my previous post, it explains it. If it is not clear, then I will use smaller words next time.

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Just so Bear and lovemyglock don't feel alone, I'll chime in. Mixing beer and shooting is stupid. I volunteer at a shooting range, and I know that anyone who would drink a beer while on the range would be ejected so fast he'd think teleportation was a reality.

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(in the US)

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Please read my previous post, it explains it. If it is not clear, then I will use smaller words next time.

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Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

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deanf wrote:

Please read my previous post, it explains it. If it is not clear, then I will use smaller words next time.

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Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

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Actually your bias towards me knows no bounds. If I said the sky was blue you would immediately say that wasn't so. You accuse me of telling everyone they are wrong about everything, not true by the way, and then you turn around andclaiming everything I say is in error. So you get your opinion but I do not, appears to be yourprogram. Well,guess what? You and your ilk will not stop me from expressing my opinion, whether you like it or not. I have had a lot more years at this to out stubborn you. FYI, what you advocate is anarchy.

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Personally I'm with bear. I don't drink and that's a personal choice that has nothing to do with firearms. I just don't, nor do I handle firearms or shoot with those that do. Just my personal choice.
As far as rights are concerned, I think my wife got the idea right when she was explaining it to her brother. Both of them being born and bred German, she naturally got into an argument with him over where she should live and why. Me, being only the husband in the situation and not wanting to get involved and stomp the crap out of the simple minded ......well nevermind that. I strived to remain calm.
One of her best explainations was this:

In Germany, if there is not a sign allowing you to do something ie: walk on the grass.
Then you are not allowed to do it, period, end of disscusion.

In the US, things are allowed unless there is a sign. Even then we had a chance to change it.

Not totally acurate but it gets the idea across.

She opted to live in a less restrictive environment.

16 years later I still think she made the right choice. My brother in law? Well we get along OK now. He likes the fishin' over here but still prefers to live in Germany and look for signs to confirm his rights.

GW

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Bear 45/70 wrote:

If I said the sky was blue you would immediately say that wasn't so.

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To get real technical the sky isn't blue. The reflection of light wavesthat your human eyes see makes it appear blue from ground level.

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David.Car wrote:

Bear 45/70 wrote:

If I said the sky was blue you would immediately say that wasn't so.

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To get real technical the sky isn't blue. The reflection of light wavesthat your human eyes see makes it appear blue from ground level.

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FYI, what you advocate is anarchy.

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I haven't advocated anything specifically. I am merely trying to determine if you believe that we only have the rights enumerated in the Constitution, so that we may proceed with the discussion from a common understanding of your views. When you say

Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to drive a car or any vehicle for that matter?

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the implication is that we only have the rights enumerated. Arriving at that implication is a simple matter of deductive logic after reading your statement.
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deanf wrote:

FYI, what you advocate is anarchy.

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I haven't advocated anything specifically. I am merely trying to determine if you believe that we only have the rights enumerated in the Constitution, so that we may proceed with the discussion from a common understanding of your views. When you say

Where in the Constitution does it say you have the right to drive a car or any vehicle for that matter?

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the implication is that we only have the rights enumerated. Arriving at that implication is a simple matter of deductive logic after reading your statement.

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Lets put it this way, so you will understand. I don't think driving a car is a God given or whatever or whoevergiven right. Maybe the Devil but that's a different issue. There is no guarantee that your get to have any rights. However the Constitution does guarantee, American citizens, certain rights but not all. But driving a car sure as hell isn't one of them. Going from place to place is, but you can always walk.