Question for the "Smarter ones"

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badger wrote:

John Hardin wrote:

...masking tape?

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LOL, nice.

-Badger

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Or for a more "Tactical Look", use black electrical tape:celebrate

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Trigger Dr wrote:

There is not an "official registration" of firearms in this state, BUT if LEO runs a CPL check on you, every firearm that you have purchased from a dealer will come up make, model, calibre and Serial #.

Some how that smacks of an illegal list.

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Wait, are you serious? Where are they getting this information? I was under the impression that the only legal obligation dealers had was to run the NICS check and keep a Form 4473 on file. If there's any FFL in this state that is furnishing private information about me to government agencies beyond what is required by law, they can kiss my business good-bye.

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Stealth Potato wrote:

Trigger Dr wrote:

There is not an "official registration" of firearms in this state, BUT if LEO runs a CPL check on you, every firearm that you have purchased from a dealer will come up make, model, calibre and Serial #.

Some how that smacks of an illegal list.

Click to expand...

Wait, are you serious? Where are they getting this information? I was under the impression that the only legal obligation dealers had was to run the NICS check and keep a Form 4473 on file. If there's any FFL in this state that is furnishing private information about me to government agencies beyond what is required by law, they can kiss my business good-bye.

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As far as I know there is no state list. Each FFL dealer keeps his copy of the forms, but nothing is sent to the state.

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I prefer duck tape.

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Duck tape ....

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Stealth,

RCW 9.41.090 contains the requirements for a dealer delivering a pistol to a consumer, which are completely separate from the federal NICS check and Form 4473. So the information mentioned definitely is required by law.

However, the same section, in paragraph (5), says regarding the retention of records:

The chief of police of the municipality or the sheriff of the county shall retain or destroy applications to purchase a pistol in accordance with the requirements of 18 U.S.C. Sec. 922.

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Which, in turn, states:

So I can't see how any long-term retention of your handgun purchase information is permissible.

Hey, LEOs, 911 guys, and attorneys! Could you weigh in on this question?

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I'm not claiming to know a lot and will stand corrected if this is old info. My understanding is that any FFL transfer is maintained with DOL. Private transfers are not required to do so, though the seller may and a form for that is available on the DOL website. I have used that or something similar when DOL showed that certain revolvers belonged to me after I sold them. I didn't really want that - even though the buyers were LE.

Of interesting note, when you file that form, it is subject to a public disclosure request. So, say King5 wants to know just how many and what kind of firearms you have, I guess this would be available. This is on the Private Disposition/Transfer Form. Not sure if info acquired from a FFL transfer would be subject to this.

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It is my understanding the records are not available, nor maintained on the state level.

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Washington State most certainly does keep a database of handguns delivered by Washington State FFL's. Database is maintained by DOL.

That is why when you buy a long gun there is only the 4473, when you buy a handgun, there is the second state form.

I run a person and it shows me any handguns that person has bought from a dealer. It has to be done as a seperate check for guns, doesn't come back with just a regular check like for warrants or drivers status.

Running the S/N will only show if it has beenreported as stolen.

I am not sure what law allows it, but most folks know it and it has never been questioned to my knowledge so I expect it is legit.

I'll do a little searching and see what I can find...

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Thanks for that insight, 911Boss. It's always good to hear it "from the horse's mouth", so to speak.

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Thanks, 911Boss. When you do ask, make sure to include a request for what authorization they have that takes precedence over RCW 9.41.090 (5).

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OK, bear with me I am not a lawyer, but I think I have figured it out...

To buy a handgun from an FFL in WA, you have to fill out two different forms. The first one is the 4473 (Federal form). This is the form that includesa specific "Statement" from the purchaser required underthe U.S.C. which says:

The statement referred to in paragraph (1)(A)(i)(I) shall contain only -

(A) the name, address, and date of birth appearing on a valid identification document (as defined in section 1028(d)(1) (!4)) of the transferee containing a photograph of the transferee and a description of the identification used;

(B) a statement that the transferee -

(i) is not under indictment for, and has not been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, and has not been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence;

(ii) is not a fugitive from justice;

(iii) is not an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act);

(iv) has not been adjudicated as a mental defective or been committed to a mental institution;

(v) is not an alien who -

(I) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or

(II) subject to subsection (2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and

Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));

(vi) has not been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; and

(vii) is not a person who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced such citizenship;

(C) the date the statement is made; and

(D) notice that the transferee intends to obtain a handgun from

the transferor.


This "statement" is beingspecifically referred to in the U.S.C. and it is whatthe requirements relate to. The FFL keeps the 4473in accordance with ATF rules.

I may be wrong here, but I don't believe the 4473 goes to the PD. The reason I am not sure is because the U.S.C. says the dealer must "...provide notice of the contents of the statement"[/i] to the local PD, but it also requires that the dealer "...transmit a copy of the statement" [/i]to the PD. Both requirements must be done within 1 day of receiving the application.

The second form is the WA State "Application to Transfer Pistol". This form is in triplicate andRCW 9.41.090 says the original goesto the local PD and charges the PD with additional checks such as Health Department mental records, outstanding misdemeanor warrants, etc. It does not include all of the statements on the 4473 (basically all the "Yes/No" questions). Instead, it has you certify a number of things related to RCW’s regarding handgun ownership and you give your permission to check related mental health records and such. The dealer certifies that he followed all of the federal rules. This state form may somehow fulfill the notification to PDrequirements of the U.S.C. but I honestly don't know about that.


RCW 9.41.090 states after the checks are complete "...The chief of police of the municipality or the sheriff of the county shall retain or destroy applications to purchase a pistol in accordance with the requirements of 18 U.S.C. Sec. 922."
[/i]
If you delve into the U.S.C. (I don't recommend it, it made my head hurt) you'll find that when it talks about destroying records, it says any record transmitted to the local PD will be destroyed, and that "...the information contained in the statement shall not be used for any purpose other than to carry out this subsection."
[/i]
I read this to mean the requirements and restrictions are only onthe PD that received the information and is not a blanket requirement that all copies and records be destroyed. Otherwise, it would seem to contradict retention requirements on the FFL for the 4473. Even if that is not the case, the state form does not include the federally required “statement” information, so I don’t think the requirement would apply.

The state RCW requirement to the PDthat reiteratesthe PD will handle the records they receive in accordance with U.S.C., would likewise relate only to the records sent to the PD. Nothing in the U.S.C. or the state laws requires ALL records to be destroyed, just those sent to the PD for the necessary checks.


Now look at RCW 9.41.110 (9)(b) “One copy shall within six hours be sent by certified mail to the chief of police of the municipality or the sheriff of the county of which the purchaser is a resident; the duplicate the dealer shall within seven days send to the director of licensing; the triplicate the dealer shall retain for six years.”

State law directs the dealer to give the info to DOL. This doesn’t violate the requirement on the PD to not use or disclose the info for other purposes. And there is nothing in theU.S.C. that says States can't keep track of purchase info,U.S.C only restricts the information provided in the required "statement" from the purchaseron the 4473. The state form is seperate and does not include that information. So I don't see where theU.S.C. would restrict DOL from collecting and keeping the transfer records.


Now look at RCW 9.41.129 (Recordkeeping requirements) which says “The department of licensing may keep copies or records of applications for concealed pistol licenses provided for in RCW 9.41.070, copies or records of applications for alien firearm licenses, copies or records of applications to purchase pistols provided for in RCW 9.41.090, and copies or records of pistol transfers provided for in RCW 9.41.110. The copies and records shall not be disclosed except as provided in RCW 42.56.240(4).”

This is where DOL is charged with maintainingthe records.



***BUT...

Finding these “answers”, seems to have led to a new question that I can’t answer. RCW 9.41.129 says the records "...shall not be disclosed except as provided in RCW 42.56.240(4)."

RCW 42.56.240(4) specifically says:

"(4) License applications under RCW 9.41.070; copies of license applications or information on the applications may be released to law enforcement or corrections agencies;”

It seems pretty clear that disclosure is allowed only in regards to Concealed Pistol License applications.RCW 9.41.070 only deals with CPL's and it has nothing to do with “copies or records of applications to purchase pistols” or “copies or records of pistol transfers”.

So it would appear at this point that an individualshandgun purchase informationshould not be available to LEOs since the information is not connected to the CPL process, and the CPL info is the only exception provided for disclosure under RCW 42.56.240(4).


This may warrant further study, but I have reached a dead end and can’t find anything else related.