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Thread: Barnes & Noble ban on OC

  1. #1
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    Hi gang,
    If you've followed all the drama in my previous thread that has disappeared re: being detained, disarmed, ejected, and permanently banned from the Barnes & Noble on 2915 Pearl St in Boulder, then I have an update regarding the B&N position, not the police matter nor the "loaded while OC" issue.

    I spoke with a Boulder PD officer yesterday and he called the store manager to verify that I was permanently banned for OC'ing there on Wed 7.16.08 on or around 1500 hours. The officer called me back to advise me that the store manager (not the one that had me ejected, Pam) said I was welcome back in the store as long as I left my handgun in the vehicle or at home. The officer then advised him to let Pam, the manager who had me ejected and trespassed out, know of the situation.

    So, finally, I got hold of Pam today. I just wanted to know if 1) she asked to have me ejected and 2) if she told the police officer that I was permanently banned. I didn't want to muddy the fact-finding conversation by responding to any of her "gun fear" statements. She advised me that "carrying a gun in sight is not a thing they wish to encourage in the store" and "this is a family business and people bring their children in here" and that open carry is "a disturbing element." She said the police advised her I had a CCW and that if I had been carrying concealed it wouldn't have been an issue because she wouldn't have known. She said I was trespassed out and that she didn't say "permanently ban" but that I wasn't welcome back until I spoke with the manage (isn't "not welcome back under trespass" and permanently banned synonymous?). Weird that the ejecting officer left the "until i spoke with a manager" part out when telling me I could never come back there again and then refused to give me her name to verify. But anyway, I digress.....I am trespassed out of that site unless I want to speak with her manager, Kevin Fury (sp) and "come to terms with him about my exposure of a weapon in the store," whatever that means.

    So, the Barnes & Noble on Pearl St in Boulder does not post signs adivsing no OC, and will not make contact with the OC'er to let them know (that's what the police are for, right?), but she was very clear that OC will not be tolerated on premises. So, any OC'ers have no way of knowing her/this business' intent on having you ejected if you OC on premise. It's almost as if they don't post and dont contact so they *can* call the police just to try to punish/rattle/teach you a lesson, but that's entirely my twisted, jaded opinion on the matter.

    And, btw, I have the conversation recorded in its entirety.

    I suppose what is left is to write corporate B&N and complain. Meh.

    Edited for some color highlighting of transcript and N.B.

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    I want to wish you the best of luck with sorting all of these issues out!

    I have already decided that I won't be carrying at all unless I have a voice recorder working at all times. There are just too many times when a "He Said, She Said" situation can turn very crappy! Not only for LEO encounters, but in actual cases of self-defense.

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    TheDuellist wrote:
    I suppose what is left is to write corporate B&N and complain.
    If this had happened to me, having established that it was a Barnes and Noble employee who ambushed me with neither posted warnings nor averbal warning to leave prior to making a MWAG call, I would never patronize any Barnes and Noble store, making that very clear in the letter to corporate B&N. If they don't want OC in a state where OC is legal, fine; but they sure as hell could handle it better.

    In fact, I now declare a personal boycott of B&N even though it didn't happen to me.


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    TheDuellist wrote:
    Hi gang,
    If you've followed all the drama in my previous thread that has disappeared re: being detained, disarmed, ejected, and permanently banned from the Barnes & Noble on 2915 Pearl St in Boulder, then I have an update regarding the B&N position, not the police matter nor the "loaded while OC" issue.

    I spoke with a Boulder PD officer yesterday and he called the store manager to verify that I was permanently banned for OC'ing there on Wed 7.16.08 on or around 1500 hours. The officer called me back to advise me that the store manager (not the one that had me ejected, Pam) said I was welcome back in the store as long as I left my handgun in the vehicle or at home. The officer then advised him to let Pam, the manager who had me ejected and trespassed out, know of the situation.
    This does not sound like any sort of offical banned from premises action to me - these sorts of things usually have aspecific protocol under state law. Go pay some money and cosult a lawyer, then you will probably have some ammunition for a complaint to Barnes and Nobles about their manager. I and other carry in these stores all the time in Virginia. One time I had a customer sort of follow me a bit and say he just wanted to see somebody carry a gun cause he read about it int eh Washington Post - they he sort of went on his way.

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    There's probably no way to do it, but I would like to see about 15-20 people gettogether--all OC--andgo into that particular store one by oneabout 20 minutes apart. I stronglysuspect that that would make them decide ina hurry to either accept OC once and for allor else put signs up banning it.

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    Flyer22 wrote:
    There's probably no way to do it, but I would like to see about 15-20 people gettogether--all OC--andgo into that particular store one by oneabout 20 minutes apart. I stronglysuspect that that would make them decide ina hurry to either accept OC once and for allor else put signs up banning it.
    well, maybe not 20 minutes apart, but sure, I think open carriers ought to go buy some books there

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    TheDuellist wrote:
    I spoke with a Boulder PD officer yesterday and he called the store manager to verify that I was permanently banned for OC'ing there on Wed 7.16.08 on or around 1500 hours. The officer called me back to advise me that the store manager (not the one that had me ejected, Pam) said I was welcome back in the store as long as I left my handgun in the vehicle or at home. The officer then advised him to let Pam, the manager who had me ejected and trespassed out, know of the situation.
    I would like to applaud you on your method of contacting the management of B&N! I can not think of a better means to confirm your status than having Boulder PD do the initial call!! Much better than having a "friend" call the store!

    Grats!!

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    I just emailed this to Barnes and Noble.

    Do you have a corporate policy to prevent customers from legally openly carrying firearms that are securely carried in a holster secured to their belt, in accordance with Colorado Law? I have recently been informed that a manager at your Boulder, Colorado (2915 Pearl Street )location by the name of Pam called the Boulder Police department to have an individual who was legally carrying a firearm removed from your store and threatened with the charge of trespassing and asked to never return again. I am a frequent customer, Barnes&Noble card carrying member, of your company, and spend hundreds(if not thousands) of dollars every year at your store in Westminster, Colorado.

    Please respond: what is your policy regarding legal carry of firearms in your stores?

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    In fact, I now declare a personal boycott of B&N even though it didn't happen to me.
    Man, you Egyptian gods sure do have strong principles
    .<--- the Jackal dance
    Thanks for the boycott and OC'ing in the Boulder B&N. It is very much appreciated. I won't patronize any B&N now, and my B&N membership is trashed. I actually talked to my brother last night about how they would handle a bunch of people going in one by one to that B&N and having them call the police, get ejected, then "Next!" LOL that would force them to accept it, or post signs stating their policy. However, I'm in academics and most all my friends are....well, I'll say they aren't strong gun advocates.

    This does not sound like any sort of offical banned from premises action to me - these sorts of things usually have aspecific protocol under state law.
    I dont know how this is done elsewhere, but I was advised by the officer checking my status as being permanently banned from that premise that this location has filed a general "Affidavit of Trespass." As it was told to me by the officer, because that place has so many vagrants, they have a standing affidavit of trespass that all they have to do is ring the police once and claim you were warned not to come back and you are back, and you will be cited for trespass. There is no specific linking of your name to any trespass order. This, as I was told, is because the number of vagrants being trespassed out of there would create unmanageable amounts of paperwork to have to file a trespass order for every one, each time. I would refer you to my post regarding my findings on this in the thread that detailed this whole event, but it has been deleted and haven't received any information from the moderator regarding it. But here's the scary part. I asked the officer "if there's no name, then what would keep someone at that B&N from calling the police and claiming they had been previously asked to leave and had come back, when in fact they never were asked?" He replied that at that point it would be their word against yours, you would be cited with trespass, and you would have to fight it out in court, if you wanted.

    When talking to Pam, she advised me (and I'm getting this directly from my recorded conversation with her, soon to be transfered to my PC and possibly put on my website if I can determine it's legal (not to tape it without the other party's permission, but to make it public without the other parties permission)) she told the police "I want him trespassed out and I don't want him back." then later "Well, you've been trespassed out and I would strongly advise you to speak with <static> the store manager before you come back" and then "You are not welcome back until you have spoken with Kevin. You are under trespass at this present time." So, since Officer Spicely advised me of being trespassed off and never to come back, along with that other officer as witness, if I go back, i *will* get cited. If I talk to their manager and say sorry for OC'ing in your store and I'll be a good boy and never do it again, then they'll let me come back, although you can be assured I would be recording that, as well, since there's no official papertrail to prove they have rescinded their desire to have me under trespass.

    I and other carry in these stores all the time in Virginia.
    I believe you, but I will refer you to a quote regarding Boulder: "Boulder is a town nestled between the mountains and reality." and to a quote from my ejecting officer: "If you plan on open carrying in Boulder you can expect more of this." I cannot even begin to explain to you how Boulder is, but maybe another Boulderite here can. It's almost unbelievable the anti-gun sentiment I've seen since moving here. I was in my OWN DRIVEWAY last weekend when my neighbor sees my gun and yells "YOU GOING TO KILL SOMEONE? WHAT DO YOU HAVE A GUN FOR?" I smiled and walked toward him to educate him on the OC situation but he walked briskly inside and I waited that entire day for the police to show up. His kids just graduated from CU and was there moving them out of the townhouse. I had never met him before but I'm sure if he knew me he would not have said that, but this is what I have met with since moving here.

    I would like to applaud you on your method of contacting the management of B&N! I can not think of a better means to confirm your status than having Boulder PD do the initial call!!
    hey, thanks! That was the officer that I mention in my original post about this whole mess. When I called the Sergeant on Duty after visiting the Boulder PD to verify my trespass status, i reached this officer. He was the most pro-gun officer I have EVER met. He said if every private citizen was committed to training themselves and carrying a gun it would be a lot safer. When I recounted this whole event to him, and told him I needed to verify my trespass status, it was he who told me about the "Affidavit of Trespass" and explained it in some detail after looking it up on the computer. Then, when I told him I wanted to call Pam to verify she did actually ask the officer to eject and perma-ban me but was concerned she would twist it to say I was harassing her, he *offered* to call them up and verify for me. After I picked my jaw up off the floor and started my heartbeat, I thanked him profusely, we hung up and he rang me back about 5 minutes later with the details of his contact with management there.

    I am a frequent customer, Barnes&Noble card carrying member, of your company, and spend hundreds(if not thousands) of dollars every year at your store in Westminster, Colorado.
    Um, did you wiretap my phone because I said almost this exact thing to Pam when I talked to her today! I mean, like almost verbatim. LOL. Thanks for sending that letter. I'm still crafting mine, trying to put in all the details that are relevant while not letting my anger over the situation make me come off too "in your face."

    I had another sort-of OC run-in with the PD tonight, this time in Westminster. It was 2345 hours Friday night, I had earlier gone AMC24 Promenade to watch Space Chimps (don't laugh, i like munkeys) when I saw "No firearms allowed" stickers on all their doors, so left to get something to eat. Wound up at Perkins on 88th and Sheridan and there were three Westminster LEOs in there and the place was packed (some birthday party). Being a little nervous about my previous encounter, and not wanting to eat my big greasy breakfast the entire time in my jacket, I took a booth with my right side against the wall, then walked over to the LEO's and it went like this:

    <knealing down to be at eye level with the LEOs, putting both my hands on the table looking as if I'm resting on the table, but just wanted them to see both my hands>

    ME: "hey fellas. I'm a CCW holder and I have my handgun on, but I need to take my jacket off when I eat. I'm over there with my side to the wall and nobody will see it anyway. Can you tell me if there are any local ordinances regarding OC that I should be aware of?"
    Officer: "Your CCW is for a concealed handgun. You need to keep it concealed."
    ME: "CO is an open carry state. I don't need a permit to carry open."
    Officer: "There is a law about alarming. You can't alarm anyone with your gun."
    ME: "I think I know the statute you're referring to, but that has to do with a calculated action to cause alarm. If someone sees my handgun in the open in its holster and is alarmed, that is not a calculated action to cause alarm."
    Officer: "Just keep your jacket on."
    ME: <scowl> "Hmm, ok."

    I know I probably wussed out but I wasn't entirely in the mood to be detained and disarmed again (or worse) in front of all these people. I wish I had the gonads to say something like "Well, I am not doing anything unlawful by taking my jacket off and OC'ing my handgun while I eat, I just wanted you guys to know the situation in case you somehow happened to see it. Enjoy your breakfast." Or maybe I should have just done it without engaging them, but wasn't really prepared for the face plant.

    Edited to add RMGO info.
    I attempted to add AMC24 to the RMGO merchant list, but got this:
    Cannot run the FrontPage Server Extensions on this page: "http://rmgo.org/merchant/merchant_thankyou.shtml"
    Page says last updated 2007 but I dont see any dates on there past 2004/2005. Anyone know if this thing is still used?


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    I see THREE primary fronts that we have to manage here. The FIRST is this practice of placing FALSE emergency calls to "911". That is a CRIME. The asst manager of the B&N apparently did not RUN from the B&N- IN FEAR FOR HER PERSONAL SAFETY - or HIDEor BARRICADE herself in the stock room. Her "911" call was merely to invoke the FORCE & INTIMIDATION option. We need to INSIST upon prosecution for this fraudulent abuse of the "911" system. The SECOND front is try to EDUCATE these people that our PRESENCE enhances their safety. THIRD - this constitutes a civil rights violation by the corporation and possibly the PD. It is pure and simple INTIMIDATION tactics because of ourhaving excercised a civil right. (Title 18 USC >Part 1 >Chapter 13 . Sec 241.)These corporations are going to have to post "NO DISPLAY OF FIREARMS" at the entrances - which is probably something they don't want to do because it may risk loss of customers.

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    TheDuellist wrote:
    Iattempted to add AMC24 to the RMGO merchant list, but got this:
    Cannot run the FrontPage Server Extensions on this page: "http://rmgo.org/merchant/merchant_thankyou.shtml"
    Page says last updated 2007 but I dont see any dates on there past 2004/2005. Anyone know if this thing is still used?
    It is. The 2007 update was to remove the Denver Zoo from the offending merchant list; that's why you don't see a 2007 date in the entry list.

    Try the "contact us" option on the http://www.rmgo.org/home page to send a message. I am sure Dudley will see it and respond.

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    The Duellist, did you have your recorder on with your latest interaction with the police?

    Personally, I would not have approached them. I can understand that you are a little "gun shy", but you already know the law. You seem affected by this enough and appear to have the tenacity to make this a personal crusade, I applaud you for that.

    Unfortunately I am out of the country for a while longer, otherwise I would join you for a cup of coffee (OC'ing of course). Perhaps some of the locals on here might come to Boulder to test the level of hospitality (hostility?).

    Since the other post was deleted, I never did see if you answered my question, "what is your major at CU?"

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    Chief_of_Scouts wrote:
    The Duellist, did you have your recorder on with your latest interaction with the police?

    Personally, I would not have approached them. I can understand that you are a little "gun shy", but you already know the law. You seem affected by this enough and appear to have the tenacity to make this a personal crusade, I applaud you for that.

    Unfortunately I am out of the country for a while longer, otherwise I would join you for a cup of coffee (OC'ing of course). Perhaps some of the locals on here might come to Boulder to test the level of hospitality (hostility?).

    Since the other post was deleted, I never did see if you answered my question, "what is your major at CU?"
    count me in. I'm in Lafayette and OC to boulder regularly.


    Dudley from RMGO responds very fast too. Why were you adding the AMC24? I haven't seen any signs there.

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    The Duellist, did you have your recorder on with your latest interaction with the police?
    What kills me is that I had my recorder actually on me but because it's such a new concept to have to record this sort of stuff, I only remembered it was in my blazer halfway thru the convo, and after telling them I had a handgun I wasn't going to put my hand in my jacket. lol
    Since the other post was deleted, I never did see if you answered my question, "what is your major at CU?"
    Oh yah I replied to that. You asked (I think) if it might have been law and I responded saying I didn't want to have to file my teeth to points and graft a dorsal fin on my back. My major is molecular & cellular biology, specializing in molecular & biochemistry of microorganism. I work with bacteria. I'm the life at dinner parties, let me tell you. I'm finishing up a manuscript for publication, but once I submit it I hope to have some time to grab a cuppa joe with some fellas here if interested.
    count me in. I'm in Lafayette and OC to boulder regularly.


    Dudley from RMGO responds very fast too. Why were you adding the AMC24? I haven't seen any signs there.
    Yeah, I've traded several emails with him. I think I'm going to have to joing RMGO. Doesn't seem fair to let other people pay for the freedoms I enjoy. Re: AMC24 Westminster Promenade: I was there 7.18.08 and they have "No weapons allowed." signs on the bottom right of all their entrances (or at least their front ones behind whre you buy the tickets). I took a pic of it and have put it in this email. Sorry, crappy phone cam in the dark...



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    TheDuellist wrote:
    SNIPI work with bacteria.
    Oh! So, you've been studying the Boulder PD for a while now?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Oh! So, you've been studying the Boulder PD for a while now?
    Ha. I've had calls from the Boulder PD almost every day since my incident. Besides the ejecting officer being alittle heavy handed and condescending, and 2 LEO's on the hill who were more ignorant of the loaded OC statute than malicious, I've had good dealings with the Boulder PD.

    I am expecting a call tomorrow from an officer who is getting a legal reading from the DA's office of the Boulder Revised Statute 5-8-8 regarding carrying a loaded handgun while OC'ing. Instead of giving me the usual "OC handguns cannot be loaded" spiel i've gotten several times, she is actually endeavouring to give me true and accurate information, from the source. Awesome!


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    I received a reply email from Barnes and Noble regarding my earlier email:
    Thank you for your email.

    While we are unable to discuss customer situations with an uninvolved
    third part, to answer your question, Barnes & Noble complies with the
    law and, except where prohibited by law, does not prohibit its customers
    from carrying handguns or other firearms in a Barnes & Noble store in
    accordance with the laws of the state in which a store is located.


    This came from the Customer Retention Supervisor in NY City.



    TheDualist, if you haven't sent your email yet, I'd get it sent off soon while this is still fresh in their heads. Pretty freaking straightforward on their position, I would say.:celebrate

    Good Luck!

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    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    What just happened??

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    I don't know. I was wondering the same thing.

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    resolved

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    Resolved.

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    Rich99GTP,
    That is awesome! Thank you for that. I almost have my letter to them drafted. But on that note, I have received the 911 call and most of the police channel chatter regarding this call and it's very revealing. Pam, the manager who had me ejected and banned told ME that OC wasn't allowed because they are a family establishment and OC is a disturbing element, as if gun owners don't have families, and that she called because a customer complained, again, as if i'm not a customer and somehow it's ok to discriminate against one customer in favor of another. Then on the 911 call tape she never mentions that customer thing but only says she and her staff are uncomfortable with me having a gun in the store. The dispatcher asked if i had touched my handgun to which she replied NO. Dispatch then asked has he threatened you or anyone and she said NO. The she was asked again later if I was beiing threatening and she said NO. This appears to be a clear case of her using her supervisor position to push her personal agenda -- against B&N corporate policy -- and use the police to intimidate lawful OC'ers. She doesn't like guns, and by god, she doesn't want you to have them either.

    So, anyone figure out what all those blank posts were about?

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