Barnes & Noble ban on OC

imported post

What just happened?? :uhoh:

imported post

I don't know. I was wondering the same thing.

imported post

resolved

imported post

Resolved.

imported post

Rich99GTP,
That is awesome! Thank you for that. I almost have my letter to them drafted. But on that note, I have received the 911 call and most of the police channel chatter regarding this call and it's very revealing. Pam, the manager who had me ejected and banned told ME that OC wasn't allowed because they are a family establishment and OC is a disturbing element, as if gun owners don't have families, and that she called because a customer complained, again, as if i'm not a customer and somehow it's ok to discriminate against one customer in favor of another. Then on the 911 call tape she never mentions that customer thing but only says she and her staff are uncomfortable with me having a gun in the store. The dispatcher asked if i had touched my handgun to which she replied NO. Dispatch then asked has he threatened you or anyone and she said NO. The she was asked again later if I was beiing threatening and she said NO. This appears to be a clear case of her using her supervisor position to push her personal agenda -- against B&N corporate policy -- and use the police to intimidate lawful OC'ers. She doesn't like guns, and by god, she doesn't want you to have them either.

So, anyone figure out what all those blank posts were about?

imported post

I have the recorded conversation between me and Pam, the supervisor at B&N, and the 911 call audio and police radio channel traffic from the call. I"m still waiting on a few more bits of freedom of information act data. My question is this: Can anyone point me to a credible source detailing what I can/can't do with this data? I'd like to post it to my website, or at the least, include it in my contact with corporate B&N.

I'd like to use my experience with the police and this personal-agenda-pushing B&N manager to help other OC'ers understand what tactics the businesses might use, how to respond to police (and what to reasonably expect), and hopefully provide other OC'ers more information to "run the scenario" in their head so when it happens to you, you'll know and be able to articulate the law while feeling more comfortable in your ability to handle the situation.

imported post

The Duellist, I want to thank you for taking the time to keep us updated. I feel educating the OC community and the anti-OC community is priority #2. Defending oneself and those under your protection, and retaining the right to provide that protection is #1.

Please elaborate on what your actions were to obtain the FOIA data. Who did you talk to and what wording did you use? Was your request verbal or written? Names are not necessary, just a general idea of the means to acquire the information.

I think you are handling this well and getting the facts makes a stronger argument. Just do not delay too much in contacting B&N, as timeliness is also important.

imported post

Chief_of_Scouts wrote:

Please elaborate on what your actions were to obtain the FOIA data. Who did you talk to and what wording did you use? Was your request verbal or written? Names are not necessary, just a general idea of the means to acquire the information.

Click to expand...

+1

Yes, please elaborate just a little bit on what was required to obtain the info you received.

I'm happy to have helped in any way I can... When you send your email to B&N I'm sure you'll get a prompt reply, they seem to take these issues seriously.

imported post

TheDuellist wrote:

Can anyone point me to a credible source detailing what I can/can't do with this data? ....................and this personal-agenda-pushing B&N manager to help other OC'ers understand what tactics the businesses might use, how to respond to police (and what to reasonably expect), and hopefully provide other OC'ers more information to "run the scenario" in their head so when it happens to you, you'll know and be able to articulate the law while feeling more comfortable in your ability to handle the situation.

Click to expand...

The issue is that IN COLORADO - OC " SHALL NOT BE CALLED INTO QUESTION". OC is the lawful, constitutionally protected excercise of your CIVIL RIGHT to "keep & bear arms" in defense of your person.

ANYONE "uncomfortable" with your FREE excercise of that right (in the absence ofthe posting ofsigneage at the entrance to private premises reflectingcorporate policy restricting that right) has to ACCOMODATE the legal reality.Any person's "comfort level" is an internal issue tobe reconciled with said reality.

The "911" tape info clears up any question of disorderly conduct on your part "in a manner calculated to alarm" - plusreporting party's admission that she was NOT ALARMED . The "another customer complained"? That's what managers routinely say in order to deflect personal responsibility for their actions. It invokes "anonimity" .

This manager used the 911 system , at the very least " INAPPROPRIATELY ". Her "fear factor" needs to be confronted - because as the management representative on duty at the time it was HER duty to contact you - not call 911.I would respond to the invitation to discuss this matter with the MANAGER .

The "selling point" about OC is the DETERENCE affect on REAL criminal conduct - purse snatchers, armed robbers, car-jackers , and even SHOPLIFTERS in book stores. B & N's premises, and the adjacent parking area willbenefit from OCby the absence of lingering, loitering, opportunistic predatory criminals.

A criminal bent on doing harm will NOT be wearing a 1911 secured in a holster ! Had YOU been an armed robber 911would not have helped the assistant manager one bit. The presence of a holstered gun in Colorado is NOT an "emergency".

Unfortunately, the incidence of violent crime with firearms has rendered the general public so "thin skinned" at the sight of a GUN , that many see the weapon as a "THREAT" -rather than a TOOL OF DEFENSE against threats.

Once this settles down - I predict the assistant manager will actually feel "COMFORTABLE" while YOU are in the store.

imported post

TheDuellist wrote:

I have the recorded conversation between me and Pam, the supervisor at B&N, and the 911 call audio and police radio channel traffic from the call. I"m still waiting on a few more bits of freedom of information act data. My question is this: Can anyone point me to a credible source detailing what I can/can't do with this data? I'd like to post it to my website, or at the least, include it in my contact with corporate B&N.

Click to expand...

1) An attorney familiar with libel, slander, and wire-intercept laws.

2) Journalist association.

Theremay also be a FOIA activist group in your statethat can help point you.

No matter what anybody says, check the statutes yourself after they cite them.

imported post

The Duellist, I want to thank you for taking the time to keep us updated. I feel educating the OC community and the anti-OC community is priority #2. Defending oneself and those under your protection, and retaining the right to provide that protection is #1.

Click to expand...

Thank you; I am glad to be able to provide any help in this regard however I can, but it's a team effort, and you guys deserve as much, if not more, thanks in this endeavor than me. It happened to me, and I'm acting to turn it into something positive. It never happened directly to you guys, but many of you have responded as if it did happen directly to you, and your show of support has been invaluable. I agree with your assessment of priorities.

Please elaborate on what your actions were to obtain the FOIA data. Who did you talk to and what wording did you use? Was your request verbal or written? Names are not necessary, just a general idea of the means to acquire the information.
-and-
Yes, please elaborate just a little bit on what was required to obtain the info you received.

Click to expand...

It was actually much simpler than I had originally expected, although there was some confusion with the language used to request the information. I first went to the Boulder PD at the address denwego gave me in my deleted thread. I can't think of it off the top of my head, but it's off of 28th St, next to King Soopers, and behind the old CompUSA. It's across the street from the records office (county clerk?) and the RTD station.

I walked in around 0800 and spoke to the lady behind the counter and asked something like "Hi. Is this the place I would need to be to fill out Freedom of Information Act paperwork?" She asked what that was exactly and I responded I believe it was needed for 911 call information. She then understood what I wanted and said something like she wasn't sure about the FOIA stuff, but "here's the paperwork you'll want to fill out to get that data," and handed me a form. I walked to a counter and filled it out. You fill in your basic personal information, date and time of occurance and the type of information you need. This includes 911 call information, police radio channel audio, paper documentation, etc. There is a fee of (I think) $25 plus maybe a $5 CAT fee (not sure what that was) as well as a $10 premium charge if you need the data within 7 days. There is a largish blank area where you write in details of what you want. I wrote things like "the complete 911 call audio of the incident at 2915 Pearl St at B&N around this time regarding a person with a handgun. Involved Officer Spicely and another officer. Also would like information regarding terry stop audio, all documentation and paperwork filled out regarding this call, and any information pertaining to a trespass or restraining order on the named individual requesting this report" or something to that effect. The term "terry stop" was unknown to her so I just explained it best I could. Payment is required at the time you pick that data up.

That's all I did to get the 911 call audio as well as the police radio chatter in response to this call. I got the 911 call audio within a week although some pieces are missing from the tape, such as the call in on my CCW as well as the request for and call in of my handgun's serial #. I havent received any paperwork or documentation, as apparently, none was filed.

I think you are handling this well and getting the facts makes a stronger argument. Just do not delay too much in contacting B&N, as timeliness is also important.

Click to expand...

Thanks, and I agree re: getting facts. It's been difficult for me to balance the need to submit my letter in an expeditious manner with the desire to have a very strong case with all the verifiable documenation in support of my assertions. It's clear that the B&N manager in question has no integrity as she deflects responsibility to others, but I want there to be no doubt about mine, and will have as many references I can to assuage any concerns B&N corporate management may have about my claims. I will be sending my letter off within the week.

1) An attorney familiar with libel, slander, and wire-intercept laws.
2) Journalist association.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's a good start. I see 911 call audio on the news all the time, but I don't know if I need to "beep" out names, addresses, etc. I definitely need to find this out before I send my letter to B&N since I think hearing the audio of both her convo with me as well the 911 call will present a strong case for her abuse of supervisory position to further her personal anti-gun agenda, even though my actions were at all times lawful and protected under CO law. The fact that I was not threatening in any way, as she admits several times, yet claims she felt "uncomfortable and unsafe in my presence," and still wouldnt contact me, while using 911 resources and the police to eject me AND ban me permanently when I didn't break any law, any corporate B&Npolicy, was never warned, AND used the "affidavit of trespass," that is reserved for vagrants and transients, to eject me under trespass like a criminal. Ok, I'm off my soapbox. Hehe

Cheers!

imported post

Where is this 911 call audio file? This is a public record - it can be posted to the world. Let's hear it ASAP!

imported post

This is plain wrong. Corporate SHOULD fix this for you... two people (myself included) have had issues at B&N. Mine was good (management-wise... you can read for the whole shebang linked below), NetRanger's was so-so. Both were cleared after the fact by B&N management.

I've personally spoken to the district manager of DC/VA/MD and he said that they respect the state's firearms laws that they do business in.

My thread (long):
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3671-1.html

NetRanger's thread:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=11573&forum_id=54

Good luck, please update.

imported post

Mike wrote:

Where is this 911 call audio file? This is a public record - it can be posted to the world. Let's hear it ASAP!

Click to expand...

And elaborate on how you got it, what format it was in, etc.

imported post

Where is this 911 call audio file? This is a public record - it can be posted to the world. Let's hear it ASAP!

Click to expand...

Hi Mike, you may be right, but there is precedence, legal opinion, and legal wordings that state that criminal justice records, records of official actions, record of physical action, (and another type of document that I can't remember now) that state it's not considered public until certain information is removed to include name, address, and any other identifying information. Then some readings say it needs to be done to sexual offender victims, one reading says something about it needing to be done to the person calling in n the 911 call. I don't have the links to these readings as I was half-asleep looking for some background on this before releasing it at 4am this morning while my fiancee slept. I don't want to come this far and then do something silly to get me sued by someone on these recordings. I need to get a clearer reading/understanding by someone in the state that can speak with authority. There are names on the 911 call and I dont know if they were left in because I am a "person in interest" to the call, since the call was on me.

And elaborate on how you got it, what format it was in, etc.

Click to expand...

I received a phone call from police communications and requested the audio via email. The communications officer sent it to me as a .wav file.

imported post

TheDuellist wrote:

Snip
I received a phone call from police communications and requested the audio via email. The communications officer sent it to me as a .wav file.

Click to expand...

Cool!! All new info and good to know! thanks much for sharing that!

I appreciate your hesitancy with posting the 911 call, and can't blame you for that. I can't quite understand your putting off the email to B&N though, it sounds like your trying to put together all of your information for a criminal trial, and I don't really believe that is necessary. It is your decision of course, but I feel that getting the message to them sooner rather than later could be helpful. Best of luck!

imported post

TheDuellist wrote:

Where is this 911 call audio file? This is a public record - it can be posted to the world. Let's hear it ASAP!

Click to expand...

Hi Mike, you may be right, but there is precedence, legal opinion, and legal wordings that state that criminal justice records, records of official actions, record of physical action, (and another type of document that I can't remember now) that state it's not considered public until certain information is removed to include name, address, and any other identifying information. Then some readings say it needs to be done to sexual offender victims, one reading says something about it needing to be done to the person calling in n the 911 call. I don't have the links to these readings as I was half-asleep looking for some background on this before releasing it at 4am this morning while my fiancee slept. I don't want to come this far and then do something silly to get me sued by someone on these recordings. I need to get a clearer reading/understanding by someone in the state that can speak with authority. There are names on the 911 call and I dont know if they were left in because I am a "person in interest" to the call, since the call was on me.

And elaborate on how you got it, what format it was in, etc.

Click to expand...

I received a phone call from police communications and requested the audio via email. The communications officer sent it to me as a .wav file.

Click to expand...

I don;t know what you could be talking about - those restrictions, if they exist, apply tot he police - presumably they did their job and released a public rcord to you. You should share it.

imported post

Here's one of the files I've put on my website. It's the original call from Pam to the emergency 911 system. She's not freaking out "omg there's a guy with a gun in here, help!" but just wants me removed. I'll let you decide if you think she's alarmed. The best part, IMHO, is when she says "...he's carrying, what I think, is a pistol of a very high caliber, and we'd like him removed." She thinks it's a pistol but knows it's a very high caliber (talk about saying something *calculated* to cause alarm). She must mean "high caliber" in the sense that I'm a classy guy with a handgun that's calibers above the rest....

http://www.lordaeron-university.org/gian/071608_weapons.wav

imported post

http://www.lordaeron-university.org/gian/071608_weapons.wav
[/quote]

Your website makes me think you'll appreciate my OC getting today, 1911 in a Serpa plus a t-shirt you can't beat! :lol:

imported post

TheDuellist wrote:

Here's one of the files I've put on my website. It's the original call from Pam to the emergency 911 system. She's not freaking out "omg there's a guy with a gun in here, help!" but just wants me removed. I'll let you decide if you think she's alarmed. The best part, IMHO, is when she says "...he's carrying, what I think, is a pistol of a very high caliber, and we'd like him removed." She thinks it's a pistol but knows it's a very high caliber (talk about saying something *calculated* to cause alarm). She must mean "high caliber" in the sense that I'm a classy guy with a handgun that's calibers above the rest....

http://www.lordaeron-university.org/gian/071608_weapons.wav

Click to expand...

Have you gotten any resolution yet from B&N?