• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Penalty for carrying concealed where prohibited on private property

sccrref

Regular Member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
741
Location
Virginia Beach, VA, , USA
imported post

Would being asked to leave from a business because you are legally carrying a firearm be discrimination? Just throwing this out there to keep things going.
 

TexasNative

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
856
Location
Austin, TX
imported post

As I understand it (and I could well be incorrect), discrimination is based on membership in a protected class, such as race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

AFAIK, "armed" isn't a protected class. So to speak. Ahem.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

TexasNative wrote:
SNIP AFAIK, "armed" isn't a protected class. So to speak. Ahem.

:D

1st Prize to TexasNative for establishing a new concept in law: the self-protecting class.

:D
 

casullshooter

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
490
Location
Bristow, Virginia, USA
imported post

According to our friend Sen. Saslaw "Property rights do not belong in the Constitution". If this were true then trespassing would not be a criminal act. I wonder if he would feel that way if say 3 or 40 gun owners were standing in his yard peaceably assembled.:idea:

I am now an Armed-American and I have historic grevances that need compensation!!!!!!!!
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

sccrref wrote:
Would being asked to leave from a business because you are legally carrying a firearm be discrimination? Just throwing this out there to keep things going.

No.



stay safe.

skidmark
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

SouthernBoy wrote:
Here was my take on all of this.. and I freely admit to a lack of knowledge about Virginia law in this regard; please forgive me for my ignorance in this matter.

Anyway, let's take two different scenarios. S1 involves a homeowner and S2 involves a place of business. With our homeowner, all rights are reserved to him but with our business owner, certain rights are forefitted. For example, the homeowner may exclude any person for any reason from entering his domain (certain individual such as police and firemen may be excluded). He is not bound be any anti-discrimination laws in this regard.

The business owner is in a different place with this. There is an implied invitation to enter his property for the purpose of conducting business. And he is bound by the anti-discrimination laws. He can ask you to leave for good and valid reasons and this is where I believed him not to have the power of law because he cannot detain or arrest you (am I correct here??).

Anyway, thanks for the corrections and hope I explained my earlier thinking on this.
While a business owner cannot arrest you (Virginia lawdoes not recognize the concept of "citizen's arrest"), he can detain you for the arrival of the police.

And if he has a sign posted, or tells you, that brown belts are not allowed on his property, and detains you or merely gets your identifying info (name & address is minimally sufficient, but Magistrates' love to have birth dates and SSN as well whenever possible) and swears out a criminal complaint at his leasure, you will be served with a summons.

While a business owner (or his agent/employee) who detains you for any reason other than shoplifting comes close to the line of kidnapping, he can detain you so long as he does not lay hands on you are physically bar your movement by locking you in a room or the like. There is some dispute whether standing in your way and arguing with you is kidnapping or not.

So the simpl;e answer to your question
and this is where I believed him not to have the power of law because he cannot detain or arrest you (am I correct here??)
is NO, you are not correct.

It sounds as if you are looking for a non-existent loophole. In the words of a very wide man I once met, "Don't go there."

stay safe.

skidmark
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
For those few that do not recognize it - this is very witty, sarcastic humor intended to provide a break before somebody gets testy.

You of all folks ought to know I do not get testy. There are many shades of annoyed that I might become, but "testy" is so low on the scale that it does not register whenquantifying my levels of annoyance. :p

stay safe.

skidmark
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
imported post

skidmark wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote: While a business owner cannot arrest you (Virginia lawdoes not recognize the concept of "citizen's arrest"), he can detain you for the arrival of the police.
Skidmark, I wish you wouldn't make sweeping statements like that. Virginia does recognize Citizens arrest.

There gave been cases upheld in the court of appeals concerning LEO's out of venue, making misdemeanor Citizens arrests. I need to get them off the other computer.

§ 19.2-100. Arrest without warrant.
The arrest of a person may be lawfully made also by any peace officer or private person without a warrant upon reasonable information that the accused stands charged in the courts of a state with a crime punishable by death or imprisonment for a term exceeding one year. But when so arrested the accused shall be taken before a judge, magistrate or other officer authorized to issue criminal warrants in this Commonwealth with all practicable speed and complaint made against him under oath setting forth the ground for the arrest as in the preceding section; and thereafter his answer shall be heard as if he had been arrested on a warrant.
(Code 1950, § 19.1-64; 1960, c. 366; 1975, c. 495.)




Case law involving misdemeanor by officer, acting outside of his territorial authority, who made a Citizens arrest
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1022703.pdf

Accordingly, we conclude Officer Wills was acting as a private citizen at the time he detained Hudson and possessed the same authority to make a citizen's arrest as would any other private citizen. We now turn to the issue of whether a citizen's arrest would be valid upon the record in this case.
2. Citizen's Arrest for Breach of the Peace
Hudson contends that even if Officer Wills had the authority as a private citizen to make a citizen's arrest, that he was still not required to take a test under Code § 18.2-268.2(B). Hudson's rationale is that he could not be the subject of a lawful citizen's arrest as his actions were not a felony. He distinguishes our prior decision in Tharp v. Commonwealth, 221 Va. 487, 270 S.E.2d 752 (1980), and the Court of Appeals' decision in Hall v. Commonwealth, 12 Va. App. 559, 389 S.E.2d 921 (1990), aff'd en banc, Record Nos. 0963-88-1, 0964-88-1 (June 12, 1990), because those cases involved a police
11
officer, acting outside of his territorial authority, who made a citizen's arrest for a felony. Hudson's argument fails because a citizen's arrest can be made for a breach of the peace, as occurred in this case, as well as a felony.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Peter,

I humbly stand corrected regarding the power of a sworn law enforcement officer to arrest for a misdemeanor committed not only not in his presence but outside his territorial jurisdiction as well as the common law allowance of a citizen to arrest for a breach of the peace committed in his presence.

I obviously missed Hudson in my searches. Like Hudson, I was relying onTharp as the latest word. Perhaps I ought to spend the $$ for access to WestLaw to prevent furture misstatements.

Thank you for making sure the information is correct.

I still posit that trespass is not a breach of the peace: "disturbing the public peace or a violation of public order or public decorum" [footnote from Hudson] or Blackwell's "offenses against the public peace include all acts affecting the public tranquility, such as assaults and batteries, riots, routs, and unlawful assemblies."

We will take our disagreement regarding that to another place and time for its resolution.

stay safe.

skidmark
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
imported post

skidmark wrote:
Peter,

I humbly stand corrected regarding the power of a sworn law enforcement officer to arrest for a misdemeanor committed not only not in his presence but outside his territorial jurisdiction as well as the common law allowance of a citizen to arrest for a breach of the peace committed in his presence.

I obviously missed Hudson in my searches. Like Hudson, I was relying onTharp as the latest word. Perhaps I ought to spend the $$ for access to WestLaw to prevent furture misstatements.

Thank you for making sure the information is correct.

I still posit that trespass is not a breach of the peace: "disturbing the public peace or a violation of public order or public decorum" [footnote from Hudson] or Blackwell's "offenses against the public peace include all acts affecting the public tranquility, such as assaults and batteries, riots, routs, and unlawful assemblies."

We will take our disagreement regarding that to another place and time for its resolution.

stay safe.

skidmark

No need to be humble Skidmark.....No one can know it all. I'm familier with it because I do arrest people for trespass several times a year.

You are right about trespass itself not being a breech of peace. A good note is in the Va Law Review.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1108615

This South Carolina Case is an excellent example of why your right.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=378&invol=146

My issue was concerning citizens arrest. Also, trespass by hunters is different than trespass by disregarding rules.
 
Top