JaredMcLaughlin
New member
imported post
I've been lurking about reading other people's experiences for a couple years now, and I thought I'd take this opportunity to share a few of my experiences, notes and lessons learned from encounters with Law Enforcement Officers in several cities and burroughs. I'm motivated to do so because I read alot of negative reports, and while I have had a couple that could be construed as negative, the majority of my experience is positive.
1. City of Pittsburgh. I used to live in the city and still visit it. I have yet to have an officer so far as look twice at an openly carried firearm. Residents of the city occasionally ask me about it and we have a short, but polite conversation about the law. The notable law enforcement observation here is that there hasn't been one. I've interacted with the officers in Zone 3 for reasons other than carrying a firearm, and they didn't treat my being armed as being anything unusual.
2. City of McKeesport. This wasn't truly an open carry incident, but is instructive nonetheless. I was pulled over for an inspection violation and when I gave the officer my LTCF with my driver's license, he asked if I was armed, and upon my answering yes, he announced "gun" and he and his partner drew their firearms on me and treated me with hostility. This was before I open carried much, and taught me to never tell an officer anything he doesn't need to know.
3. Clairton. I got a speeding ticket there, and at the time was still informing officers that I was armed. The officer in question politely asked if he could disarm me during the stop, with which I complied, and he used some of the best techniques I've seen. We had a nearly half hour conversation about firearms after the formal part of the stop was over. This was the most proffesional and knowledgeable officer I've ever encountered.
4. Harmar Township. I was removed from the Target in handcuffs after someone there made a "man with a gun" call. The officer was insistent that his stop, and my detainment where covered under Terry v. Ohio. Due to personal circumstances, I did not have the time and resources to follow up on this with their chief and city council, and have lost my refference materials for the exact date and situation of the stop. The officers in this instance where notable for not only a lack of knowledge of laws regarding firearms, but of Terry Stops, and general laws. They quoted several non-firearm laws incorrectly. I was released after they called the sherrif's office and DA, to eventually determine there was nothing they could do.
5. Ohio Township. This didn't start as a firearms thing. I went to assist someone I know with the manual labor part of a transaction, which broke down into a lively dispute. My involvement then became attempting to de-esclate the situation and remove the person that I had come with. The other individuals called the police because I was armed. The arriving officer drew his firearm on me, and insisted I drop the weapon on the ground. This is one of the few cases were I very insistently disagreed with the officer. I said, "No, I'm not touch my firearm while you're drawn on me. If it's going to de-escalate this, I'll put my hands on my head and you can disarm me." He went with that plan. I eventually went with what was going on when I was informed that the call they recieved was that I had drawn my firearm during the conflict. I could understand that based upon this non-factual report, where the officer could react the way he did.
6. Harrison Hills. I was stopped by three officers, post Dickson City. The efforts there seem to have had an effect, as the officers where aware of the pending Federal case, and where discussing their knowledge of it during the stop. This stop seemed to be more of a curiosity stop for them. They said they had several previous calls about me, but could never track me down. The ranking officers repeated several times, "It is legal for you to do what you are doing, and I cannot legally require you to do otherwise, but it would make people feel better." This was very recent, and I am still going to do a follow up to help the officers be more aware. They were aware, apparently through the grapevine, that it was legal, but weren't aware of the applicable case law and statutes. This was a very friendly stop that my follow-up will include praising the officers.
I hope the above shows several things, that I believe the manner in which you handle the confrontation ought to follow something that is like escalation of force. It is my personal belief that if an officer is polite and seems to either be aware of the law, or admits that he is not fully aware, I redirect the conversation and try to comply with things that are not strict legal requirements but will make the officer feel more in control. I don't mind letting an officer take control of my firearm if he asks nicely, and understands that it's only because I've given him permission. I've been on the other side of the gun before, unsure as to whether the individual I'm speaking with has an ulterior motive. I understand alot of the training dictates to disarm everyone for "safety". You may even believe it.
On the other end of the spectrum, I'll comply with illegal requests made, but I'll voice the fact that what's being done is unnecessary and illegal. I won't give anything more. If you want to try to charge me with something, you'll need to work hard for it and understand I'm going to give you a hard time the whole way.
I also hope that my description of the encounters shows the wide variety of levels of competancy and training throughout this part of the state. It may be well to get to know the guys in your local area before they get a call. Since the place I live in now is a small town, I'm going to be acquainting myself with the local city council and police force. I'm considering inviting the officers to the range. I think we need to reach out to the good ones, and fight the bad ones. It's our government.
Finally, I noticed in my last encounter the affect of the Dickson Case. The word is getting around. Good work out there ladies and gentlemen. One of the reasons I carry openly is that I see the symbolism in it. In my mind, a man wears a ring when he accepts the duties of marriage, and a gun when he accepts the duties of citizenship. We have national politicians who claim they can bring change. The citizens here are proving that they are the source of power in our state, and that we don't need politicians to bring change, we can do it quite well on our own. I predict that Pennsylvania will in the future be able to keep it's head high as the "keytstone" of liberty due to the continued efforts of the members of this and other firearms organizations. Good work.
I've been lurking about reading other people's experiences for a couple years now, and I thought I'd take this opportunity to share a few of my experiences, notes and lessons learned from encounters with Law Enforcement Officers in several cities and burroughs. I'm motivated to do so because I read alot of negative reports, and while I have had a couple that could be construed as negative, the majority of my experience is positive.
1. City of Pittsburgh. I used to live in the city and still visit it. I have yet to have an officer so far as look twice at an openly carried firearm. Residents of the city occasionally ask me about it and we have a short, but polite conversation about the law. The notable law enforcement observation here is that there hasn't been one. I've interacted with the officers in Zone 3 for reasons other than carrying a firearm, and they didn't treat my being armed as being anything unusual.
2. City of McKeesport. This wasn't truly an open carry incident, but is instructive nonetheless. I was pulled over for an inspection violation and when I gave the officer my LTCF with my driver's license, he asked if I was armed, and upon my answering yes, he announced "gun" and he and his partner drew their firearms on me and treated me with hostility. This was before I open carried much, and taught me to never tell an officer anything he doesn't need to know.
3. Clairton. I got a speeding ticket there, and at the time was still informing officers that I was armed. The officer in question politely asked if he could disarm me during the stop, with which I complied, and he used some of the best techniques I've seen. We had a nearly half hour conversation about firearms after the formal part of the stop was over. This was the most proffesional and knowledgeable officer I've ever encountered.
4. Harmar Township. I was removed from the Target in handcuffs after someone there made a "man with a gun" call. The officer was insistent that his stop, and my detainment where covered under Terry v. Ohio. Due to personal circumstances, I did not have the time and resources to follow up on this with their chief and city council, and have lost my refference materials for the exact date and situation of the stop. The officers in this instance where notable for not only a lack of knowledge of laws regarding firearms, but of Terry Stops, and general laws. They quoted several non-firearm laws incorrectly. I was released after they called the sherrif's office and DA, to eventually determine there was nothing they could do.
5. Ohio Township. This didn't start as a firearms thing. I went to assist someone I know with the manual labor part of a transaction, which broke down into a lively dispute. My involvement then became attempting to de-esclate the situation and remove the person that I had come with. The other individuals called the police because I was armed. The arriving officer drew his firearm on me, and insisted I drop the weapon on the ground. This is one of the few cases were I very insistently disagreed with the officer. I said, "No, I'm not touch my firearm while you're drawn on me. If it's going to de-escalate this, I'll put my hands on my head and you can disarm me." He went with that plan. I eventually went with what was going on when I was informed that the call they recieved was that I had drawn my firearm during the conflict. I could understand that based upon this non-factual report, where the officer could react the way he did.
6. Harrison Hills. I was stopped by three officers, post Dickson City. The efforts there seem to have had an effect, as the officers where aware of the pending Federal case, and where discussing their knowledge of it during the stop. This stop seemed to be more of a curiosity stop for them. They said they had several previous calls about me, but could never track me down. The ranking officers repeated several times, "It is legal for you to do what you are doing, and I cannot legally require you to do otherwise, but it would make people feel better." This was very recent, and I am still going to do a follow up to help the officers be more aware. They were aware, apparently through the grapevine, that it was legal, but weren't aware of the applicable case law and statutes. This was a very friendly stop that my follow-up will include praising the officers.
I hope the above shows several things, that I believe the manner in which you handle the confrontation ought to follow something that is like escalation of force. It is my personal belief that if an officer is polite and seems to either be aware of the law, or admits that he is not fully aware, I redirect the conversation and try to comply with things that are not strict legal requirements but will make the officer feel more in control. I don't mind letting an officer take control of my firearm if he asks nicely, and understands that it's only because I've given him permission. I've been on the other side of the gun before, unsure as to whether the individual I'm speaking with has an ulterior motive. I understand alot of the training dictates to disarm everyone for "safety". You may even believe it.
On the other end of the spectrum, I'll comply with illegal requests made, but I'll voice the fact that what's being done is unnecessary and illegal. I won't give anything more. If you want to try to charge me with something, you'll need to work hard for it and understand I'm going to give you a hard time the whole way.
I also hope that my description of the encounters shows the wide variety of levels of competancy and training throughout this part of the state. It may be well to get to know the guys in your local area before they get a call. Since the place I live in now is a small town, I'm going to be acquainting myself with the local city council and police force. I'm considering inviting the officers to the range. I think we need to reach out to the good ones, and fight the bad ones. It's our government.
Finally, I noticed in my last encounter the affect of the Dickson Case. The word is getting around. Good work out there ladies and gentlemen. One of the reasons I carry openly is that I see the symbolism in it. In my mind, a man wears a ring when he accepts the duties of marriage, and a gun when he accepts the duties of citizenship. We have national politicians who claim they can bring change. The citizens here are proving that they are the source of power in our state, and that we don't need politicians to bring change, we can do it quite well on our own. I predict that Pennsylvania will in the future be able to keep it's head high as the "keytstone" of liberty due to the continued efforts of the members of this and other firearms organizations. Good work.
