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Thread: First week of open carry in PA

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    First I would like to say that I'm new to open carry and also new to this website. I must say that this is a wonderful site and all of the information is great. I also would like to add that I am a Law Abiding Citizen, I legally own firearms and Ihave a Concealed Carry Permit for thestate of PA. And unfortunatelynow on to the negatives. Today I was at a local pizza shop and I was OC'ing. While I was there an off duty state trooper came in. When I asked him a question he said that if he saw me OC'ing that he would draw his gun on me and that he would arrest me.I triedto talk to him and explain that it is LEGAL in PA to Open Carry, but he would not listen. He then made a phone call to another person in the State Police and he asked them if it was legal. He saidthat the person he was calling was in charge of the Criminal code or something like that. He said that if anyone would now the law that it would be the person he was calling. He also mentioned calling the Sheriff's dept. in my county and he mentioned revocation of my CC permit. I don't mean to scare anyone, but this is very alarming. If our State Police do not know the laws then who does. This experience has certainly deterred me from OC'ing in the near future.

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    Did you get his name? If he called in, you should procede with a FOIA request to get all details of the call. He can't "arrest you" because he feels like it (well, he can), he isn't an opinion enforcement officer.

    Others will be able to provide more information, the PA section might have a bit more help.

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    While I certainly wouldn't ask that anyone submit themselves to oppressive scrutiny under color of law, this should be a motivation to open carry! The more people do it, and the more people who see it, the less LE agencies can ignore it.

    Have him revoke your LTCF. And see if it goes any further than the last two instances of which I know... Have him arrest you without a charge. By shutting up and concealing, we seal our own fate. Am I saying to go out looking for lawsuits and formal complaints? Of course not. But a phone call and/or certified letter to this LEO's supervisor might present an option to train without being as confrontational as the former options.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Browning wrote:
    First I would like to say that I'm new to open carry and also new to this website. I must say that this is a wonderful site and all of the information is great. I also would like to add that I am a Law Abiding Citizen, I legally own firearms and Ihave a Concealed Carry Permit for thestate of PA. And unfortunatelynow on to the negatives. Today I was at a local pizza shop and I was OC'ing. While I was there an off duty state trooper came in. When I asked him a question he said that if he saw me OC'ing that he would draw his gun on me and that he would arrest me.I triedto talk to him and explain that it is LEGAL in PA to Open Carry, but he would not listen. He then made a phone call to another person in the State Police and he asked them if it was legal. He saidthat the person he was calling was in charge of the Criminal code or something like that. He said that if anyone would now the law that it would be the person he was calling. He also mentioned calling the Sheriff's dept. in my county and he mentioned revocation of my CC permit. I don't mean to scare anyone, but this is very alarming. If our State Police do not know the laws then who does. This experience has certainly deterred me from OC'ing in the near future.
    Newbie OC map of Wal-Mart. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...30-post50.html You need it to know where to go OC-ing.

    As for your Sooper Trooper, just remember that he and his ilk are there to make you rich (think Federal lawsuit under 42 CFR 1983 & 42 CFR 1985). Do not be deterred from further OC because you met a jerk in a uniform. Instead, calmly and quietly be in his face by lawfully and politely OC-ing every chance you can. One day he will do something that will become the basis of the civil rights violation lawsuit that will teach him the law, as well as allow him to fulfill his dream to ride shotgun on the honeydipper truck.

    Now - a personal request. Slow down, take a breath, and space out your sentences. As much as we all like to think we are not judged by our appearance, that is not the case. If you do not want to be thought of as a high school drop-out who spends most of the day in front of basic cable, use paragraphs instead of stream-of-consciousness for your writing style.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Browning wrote:
    When I asked him a question he said that if he saw me OC'ing that he would draw his gun on me and that he would arrest me.I triedto talk to him and explain that it is LEGAL in PA to Open Carry, but he would not listen. He then made a phone call to another person in the State Police and he asked them if it was legal. He saidthat the person he was calling was in charge of the Criminal code or something like that. He said that if anyone would now the law that it would be the person he was calling.
    Well there's the problem. FIRST he says if he sees you OCing again he will draw his gun and arrest you. NEXT he made a phone call to find out if that is legal for him to do and if you are violating any laws. That's like trying to put on your underwear after your pants. This has become a commonly described behavior pattern from certain LEOs. I find it vile that an LEO would threaten a citizen with arrest and then afterwards find out if his threat is valid and if the citizen is violating the law. It shows an arrogance and disrespect that is disturbing on many levels.

    I think the only solution is to help the system weed out this minority of LEOs who approach citizens with a "guilty until proven innocence" attitude by actively filing complaints and following up, and filing suits when appropriate. I'm sure that in most departments it is a very few jerk LEOs on a power trip. In others, such as NY, LA and Chicacago it appears to be a culture of arrogance, corruption and self-righteousnous. The majority of departments with the few jerk LEOs are fairly easy as with enough complaints and suits the dept will make the problem LEO go away. Where it is a systemic culture of citizen abuse it may take generations to fix it if even possible with out disbanding and reforming the dept.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    While I was there an off duty state trooper came in. When I asked him a question he said that if he saw me OC'ing that he would draw his gun on me and that he would arrest me.

    I would ask him what hours he works, and what his general area of operations is. Sounds like a slam dunk lawsuit in the works. I bet after he pulls overtime for a year, he'll understand that it isn't illegal.

    If our State Police do not know the laws then who does. This experience has certainly deterred me from OC'ing in the near future.

    Federal judges know the law. Don't let the fear get you. Don't give in. Go OC, and if this guy even looks at you twice, sue him.

    I am saying go for lawsuits and offical complaints.

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    Like many have said before.

    OPEN CARRY IS LEGAL, If you let Rogue LEO's like this jerk scare you, then They Win.

    I promise there are LEO's in PA, that believe in the 2nd Amendment just like you do, and probably think this guys a tird just like we do also.

    Hold the Line Browning !!!!

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    Browning, I'm having some trouble completely understand the beginning of your encounter. Did the LEO approach you, or did you approach him? And in the case of the latter, did you ask him a question about OC, or a question of some other topic?

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    Browning,
    I suggest that you also cross post to www.pafoa.org in the concealed and open carry section.

    The pafoa site is PA specific. I find that posting to both gets me an outstanding cross section of experience to help with challenging situations.

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    The cop wasbluffing. Just trying to scare you into not OCing.

    Police are never off duty, as I understand it. They don't suddenly lose their commission or authority just because they signed out at the barracks.

    If he's so convinced of his position, why didn't he call the local police or his own barracks and immediately request assistance? Conversely, here is a cop that did not do his duty as a peace officer and have anoffender arrested.

    That is, if he really was a PA state trooper.

    Plus, I can't believe that word of the Dickson City situation didn't get through the PD grapevine. Even the unofficial channels like police internet forums.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  11. #11
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    A revocation for merely OCing stands an excellent chance of being overturned on appeal (ask me how I know ). If you'd like to see some court documents supporting this claim, see here.

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    Sheriff wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Police are never off duty, as I understand it. They don't suddenly lose their commission or authority just because they signed out at the barracks.
    The Virginia Office of Risk Management sayscops and deputy sheriffsare off duty and not covered by insurance when intentionally and knowingly committing wrongdoing while off duty. Just had a case in my city where Risk Management refused to cover a deputy sheriff who was off duty and running his mouthto the detriment of another.

    Now, having said the above, I suspect they are also not covered when committing a false arrest if they have been properly trained, and their access to this training can be proven to have been provided by the department. Would be interesting to know if my suspicion is correct.


    What actually happens is they lose the protection of qualified immunity, and thus are open to being sued as a private individual as well as a public servant.

    Many agencies disown employees who violate the civil rights of others while acting under the color of law, which basically means they say you were not even employed by them at the time you screwed the pooch. Another way of phrasing it is: "Our employees are not hired to violate civil rights, and since you violated someone's civil rights you could not possibly have been working for us at the time you did violate their civil rights."

    I have seen someone docked an hour's pay for the time when they were violating someone's civil rights instead of performing their job duties. Must be strange to suddenly find out you were "off duty".

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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