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Thread: petersburg CHP process

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    I know this forum is about open carry, but I also know that many of you have CHP's as well and though that my story may interest you.

    I filled out and turned in my application on 6/5/08, I was told that I'd have to take my application to the Petersburg police headquarters and be fingerprinted. I did so, was charged $35 for the fingerprinting, and they said they'd be handing the application over to the clerk to handle from there. I called the clerks office on friday, the 18th of july to check on the status of my application, and was told that they hadn't gotten it back yet. I informed the woman on the phone that by state law t
    hey only had 45 days to process the application or they'd have to issue a temporary permit and that Sunday, the 20th would be the 45th day and I'd be up there today to pick up my permit. She told me that sometimes it just takes longer and I'd have to wait, and that a copy of the application would not serve as a permit.

    This morning July 21st, I went to the clerks office (the clerk himself is not in until noon today). The woman at the counter informed me that they'd gotten my paperwork back from state police Friday afternoon and that I could go ahead and pay for my permit, which I did ($15). Then I was informed that they would not be issuing me a permit yet, as they had just received my paperwork (46 days now after I turned it in), and that today starts THEIR 45 day period in which to approve or deny my application. She also said that they'd changed the way they handle things because they'd had to issue too many temporary permits in the past.

    If this is the way they handle things it sets up a situation where they can effectively deny all permits by simply having the police department sit on the applications indefinately. I also find it hard to believe that this is the first time they've seen my application since the police station is less than a block from the clerks office.

    So what recourse do I have at this point? are they really able to effectively stretch the process period indefinately?
    [/code]

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    builtjeep wrote:
    I know this forum is about open carry, but I also know that many of you have CHP's as well and though that my story may interest you.

    I filled out and turned in my application on 6/5/08, I was told that I'd have to take my application to the Petersburg police headquarters and be fingerprinted. I did so, was charged $35 for the fingerprinting, and they said they'd be handing the application over to the clerk to handle from there. I called the clerks office on friday, the 18th of july to check on the status of my application, and was told that they hadn't gotten it back yet. I informed the woman on the phone that by state law t
    hey only had 45 days to process the application or they'd have to issue a temporary permit and that Sunday, the 20th would be the 45th day and I'd be up there today to pick up my permit. She told me that sometimes it just takes longer and I'd have to wait, and that a copy of the application would not serve as a permit.

    This morning July 21st, I went to the clerks office (the clerk himself is not in until noon today). The woman at the counter informed me that they'd gotten my paperwork back from state police Friday afternoon and that I could go ahead and pay for my permit, which I did ($15). Then I was informed that they would not be issuing me a permit yet, as they had just received my paperwork (46 days now after I turned it in), and that today starts THEIR 45 day period in which to approve or deny my application. She also said that they'd changed the way they handle things because they'd had to issue too many temporary permits in the past.

    If this is the way they handle things it sets up a situation where they can effectively deny all permits by simply having the police department sit on the applications indefinately. I also find it hard to believe that this is the first time they've seen my application since the police station is less than a block from the clerks office.

    So what recourse do I have at this point? are they really able to effectively stretch the process period indefinately?
    your situation does raise some questions that I'm not sure of the answers. Does the 45 day limit include weekends or is it 45 "business" days? if you can get an answer to that question i'd go back and demand(politely) my temporary license. if the counter person is unresponsive get their superior. Also take a copy of the code section with you.

    Joe

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    Hindsight is 20/20 but I would have hand-carried my own application.

    I don't know what to tell you, for you weren't the one physically submitting the application of the court clerk.

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    They don't allow for you to hand carry the application. You have to turn it in to the police when they do your fingerprinting. The fingerprint card is dated though, and is attached to my application. My background check is also attached to my app. So as far as I can tell they already have everything needed to issue the permit, and how can they charge me for the permit without issuing it?

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    Odd.

    I can see the court's argument, as they just recieved the application. However, I still don't see why the police need to hold onto your application that you're supposed to submit in person to the court.

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    So like I said, they are using this as a ploy to postpone the process. Which is BS, I turned my application in per THEIR rules, 46 days ago, and not only have they not held up their end, they won't issue a temporary permit either. and they've acknowledged that they recieve the applications, they say that they wiat for the background check to come back before they process it because they were handing out so many temp. permits. So rather than fix the process, they choose to circumvent state law. and I have no doubt that I will have to deal with the same BS when it comes time to renew.



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    I've already contacted VCDL, hopefully they can help sort this out.

    Thank god that such a group exists.

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    +1 for contacting VCDL. Here's the VSP site and info on CHP. Read on, at this link. I know Fx. Co. does not have a fingerprint requirement, so that's different. However, I would think that the process is to obtain your fingerprint cards, then include that and other supporting/required documents + the applicaiton and deliver the "package" to the Circuit Court -That's when the clock starts and you get a dated receipt for it. Since I'm not in Petersbug, I'm not familiar with their process, but it sounds A$$-Backwards, to me. Your assumption, though, is correct. Petersburg PD could sit on it forever.

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    I took a copy of the law from the VSP site with me. They had no interest in it, again stating that their process period starts only when they recieve the paperwork from the police.

    I however believe that, as Mr. Van Cleave pointed out to me, their requirement that the application be submitted to the police, makes the police a proxy for the court clerk, thus starting the clock from the date that the police recieve the app. It makes no sense any other way. If need be I will get them to give me another copy of their procedure (I unfortunately didn't hold on to the original one as I didn't expect these sort of problems). The paper they hand out for the application process specifically says that you turn the app in to the police.

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    Sounds like you have good plan of action.

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    yeah, I just hope it works out. You know the old saying, you can't fight city hall. And of course, this all makes sense, Petersburg being a high crime city, of course they want the law abiding populance disarmed. I'm tempted to wear my empty holster when I go back up there this afternoon to speak directly with the clerk of courts, just as a statement, but in this city I'm sure they'd find some reason to arrest me for it, so I'll not push that button for now.



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    I'm sure there's others that would disagree. But in your case the saying "Don't poke the bear" comes to mind.

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    At this point, it sounds like you just need to wait the 45 days from when the clerk states they received it. If still nothing, then you can get a copy of the application and it'll count as valid until you hear otherwise.

    If you were to hire an attorney and take it to court, you'd probably win, but you'd need to be prepared for the legal costs. If their process requires you to "turn in" your paperwork to the police and they take it from there, then a judge would likely rule in your favor that the time starts when you turn in your paperwork to the police for processing. Since that county has decided to use that process, the police are essentially their "intake" or acceptance for the paperwork.

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    I said, it's tempting, perhaps just the devil in me as they say. But no, I will not be "poking the bear". Just frustrating having to deal with such blatant BS, hopefully the clerk himself has a bit more sense than his employees, somehow I doubt it though.

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    Previously discussed.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/12203.html

    Your example is a very good one. By law, the duty to get fingerprints if they are required is yours, however, that processing regime is unlawful as you describe it.

    You are required by law to deliver the completed application to the court. When you showed up on 6/5, and they directed you to the PD forthe prints that was legitimate. Once you had the prints, you should have taken the now complete application to the clerk of the court and gotten a receipt.

    This is gaming the law to get in their favor. Do you have any kind of receipt from 6/5 for the submission of your application? If you don't, then legally you won't be able to successfully challenge the procedures. If you do have a receipt for the application, then you do have a leg to stand on. One one hand, you paid for the f/p back in June, however, it sounds like you didn't pay the court until today. I think this could go either way at Ore Tenus. One thing going in your favor is that the background investigation is a duty of the court, not yours so you are not required to wait if the background check is incomplete, the court is obligated by law to issue you the permit in 45 days. Else you get the temporary permit.

    Pick up the paperwork for an Ore Tenus hearing at the court and demand your defacto permit, IMHO.

    If you read that thread above you'll see a few people thought the page treated the process as adversarial. Your experience is one I was hoping could be avoided by writing all that up.

    Good luck!

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    I've just returned from my second visit to the clerks office. They told me this morning that he wouldn't be in until noon, I returned at 1:50pm, and was informed that he'd just stepped out to lunch, and wouldn't be back until 3:30. They close at 4. I requested a copy of their procedure sheet, which the woman gave me, and then she told me rather rudely that the process had already been explained to me and that I'd have to wait. I asked for her name and she told me that it was none of my business, so I asked if she was in fact an employee of the court, she said "Yes, and my name is still none of your business." and walked away from me.

    Attached is a copy of their procedure, which clearly states that you HAVE to turn the application in to the police department.

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    They have 45 calendar days to give you your permit, not business days. If part of their procedure includes you turning your app into the PD, then they need to account for the PD print process within thier 45 day window. On day 46, you need to demand your temporary permit. Since the document clearly indicates that the PD turns the app in to the court, then the PD (as was stated earlier) acts as a proxy for the court and they are still held to the 45 days.

    This all sounds like a new shuck and jive by a department that I've never heard of a problem from.

    Dont let them push you around. The Clerk of the CC is an elected official and remind him of that when you finally speak to him.




    ETA - I like the part where you have to hand in your cert as proof of competancy to carry a handgun or concealed weapon. I may have to go there and apply for a concealed "weapon" permit since Chinese throwing stars have long been on my list of things that I want to carry legally.
    James Reynolds

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    "The court shall consult with either the sheriff or police department of the county or city and receive a report from the Central Criminal Records Exchange."

    ...

    L. An application is deemed complete when all information required to be furnished by the applicant is delivered to and received by the clerk of court before or concomitant with the conduct of a state or national criminal history records check. If the court has not issued the permit or determined that the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of receipt noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired, and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant. The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification pursuant to subsection H, until the court issues a permit or finds the applicant to be disqualified.

    Section 1 of their procedures document is a violation of state law by (mis)placing the burden of the criminal background check on you, when the law says it is a duty of the court. The clock started ticking when you paid for the background check.

    Section 2 - how much is the filing fee? I can't read it on the .jpg...







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    Well, jeep, looks like your clock is now running. That sure is a dumb way to handle this. The City of Alexandria requires fingerprints, but it looks like the clock may start when you appear at the couthouse and then take the application to Alex PD for fingerprinting. I agree that the Petersburg PD could hold it up indefinately. Good luck, sir.

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    They are also violating paragraph K of ยง 18.2-308. That paragraph says (emphasis mine):
    The total amount assessed for processing an application for a permit shall not exceed $50, with such fees to be paid in one sum to the person who accepts the application. Payment may be made by any method accepted by that court for payment of other fees or penalties. No payment shall be required until the application is accepted by the court as a complete application.
    ---

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    Awesome catch RLH!



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    the filing fee is $10, plus a $5 fee that goes to the state police.

    So I finally met with the Clerk himself. He was exponentially more rude and misinformed than his employees. He told me that even IF the 45 days had expired, that he can not issue any sort of permit. He says that their process was set up with the help of the virginia supreme court, and that too many felons apply for permits, so there's no way he can issue the de facto permits, and that this is done to protect the public. (How many felons really f$%^ing apply for a cHP, really?!) He also outlined his process for me. I pay for the background check and hand my application in to the police, they send it to the state police, then the commonwealth attorney, then to his office, and that's when the 45 days starts, once he recieves the application. I asked him to provide me a written copy of this process with his signature and he told me he wasn't going to be writing or signing ANYTHING, and that if I had a problem with the way he runs things then I need to file for a (insert latin term that I can't remember) hearing, and I can speak to a judge.

    I told him that I know he has my application sitting on his desk, with my background check, and fingerprints attached, so how long does processing take? He said, "My part only takes 5 mins, I just have to hand it to the court, and then give you your permit once it's approved, how long it takes at this point is up to the commonwealth's attorney and the judge, so I can't tell you how long it'll take. You'll get a call when it's ready."

    when I pointed out that the law states that "If the court has not issued or determined the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of reciept noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant". He told me first that I can't get a de facto permit because my application hasn't been approved or denied, I told him that that's WHY he needed to issue the de facto permit. He then says that it has to be handled by the court, so I point out where it says the CLERK shall certify. To which he replies that he doesn't certify anything, and that it should say judge, not clerk.

    So he and his employees are willing to be rude to their citizens, and also willing to refuse to identify themselves, and he refuses to put anything he has to say in writing. So now what? at this point I wouldn't be surprised at all if my application accidentally fell into a trash can or something. They definately know my name by now. There's no reason for my permit to be denied, I have no criminal record at all, hell, I haven't had a speeding ticket in almost 10 years.


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    Are you willing to sue them?

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    builtjeep wrote:
    and that if I had a problem with the way he runs things then I need to file for a (insert latin term that I can't remember) hearing, and I can speak to a judge.

    Sounds like he's talking about an ore tenus hearing, which if memory serves, you cant request until a decision has been rendered.

    You should probably contact:

    Court of Appeals of Virginia
    109 North Eighth Street
    Richmond, VA 23219
    (804) 371-8428
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
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    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    If I had the financial means to sue, I happily would. As frustrating as this has been, and as much as I'd like to just have my permit, I want to see something done to correct the problem, not just remedy my personal situation. Noone should have to deal with such flagrant abuse of process, and if I'm on here now talking about it, how many have just quietly let it slide?

    Not to mention that since noone there will put anything in writing including their names, and Mr. Scott (the Clerk) would only speak to me behind closed doors, it would simply be my word against his.

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