Mr. Y
Regular Member
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Awesome catch RLH!
Awesome catch RLH!
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petersburg CHP process
- Thread starter builtjeep
- Start date
builtjeep
Regular Member
imported post
the filing fee is $10, plus a $5 fee that goes to the state police.
So I finally met with the Clerk himself. He was exponentially more rude and misinformed than his employees. He told me that even IF the 45 days had expired, that he can not issue any sort of permit. He says that their process was set up with the help of the virginia supreme court, and that too many felons apply for permits, so there's no way he can issue the de facto permits, and that this is done to protect the public. (How many felons really f$%^ing apply for a cHP, really?!) He also outlined his process for me. I pay for the background check and hand my application in to the police, they send it to the state police, then the commonwealth attorney, then to his office, and that's when the 45 days starts, once he recieves the application. I asked him to provide me a written copy of this process with his signature and he told me he wasn't going to be writing or signing ANYTHING, and that if I had a problem with the way he runs things then I need to file for a (insert latin term that I can't remember) hearing, and I can speak to a judge.
I told him that I know he has my application sitting on his desk, with my background check, and fingerprints attached, so how long does processing take? He said, "My part only takes 5 mins, I just have to hand it to the court, and then give you your permit once it's approved, how long it takes at this point is up to the commonwealth's attorney and the judge, so I can't tell you how long it'll take. You'll get a call when it's ready."
when I pointed out that the law states that "If the court has not issued or determined the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of reciept noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant". He told me first that I can't get a de facto permit because my application hasn't been approved or denied, I told him that that's WHY he needed to issue the de facto permit. He then says that it has to be handled by the court, so I point out where it says the CLERK shall certify. To which he replies that he doesn't certify anything, and that it should say judge, not clerk.
So he and his employees are willing to be rude to their citizens, and also willing to refuse to identify themselves, and he refuses to put anything he has to say in writing. So now what? at this point I wouldn't be surprised at all if my application accidentally fell into a trash can or something. They definately know my name by now. There's no reason for my permit to be denied, I have no criminal record at all, hell, I haven't had a speeding ticket in almost 10 years.
the filing fee is $10, plus a $5 fee that goes to the state police.
So I finally met with the Clerk himself. He was exponentially more rude and misinformed than his employees. He told me that even IF the 45 days had expired, that he can not issue any sort of permit. He says that their process was set up with the help of the virginia supreme court, and that too many felons apply for permits, so there's no way he can issue the de facto permits, and that this is done to protect the public. (How many felons really f$%^ing apply for a cHP, really?!) He also outlined his process for me. I pay for the background check and hand my application in to the police, they send it to the state police, then the commonwealth attorney, then to his office, and that's when the 45 days starts, once he recieves the application. I asked him to provide me a written copy of this process with his signature and he told me he wasn't going to be writing or signing ANYTHING, and that if I had a problem with the way he runs things then I need to file for a (insert latin term that I can't remember) hearing, and I can speak to a judge.
I told him that I know he has my application sitting on his desk, with my background check, and fingerprints attached, so how long does processing take? He said, "My part only takes 5 mins, I just have to hand it to the court, and then give you your permit once it's approved, how long it takes at this point is up to the commonwealth's attorney and the judge, so I can't tell you how long it'll take. You'll get a call when it's ready."
when I pointed out that the law states that "If the court has not issued or determined the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of reciept noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant". He told me first that I can't get a de facto permit because my application hasn't been approved or denied, I told him that that's WHY he needed to issue the de facto permit. He then says that it has to be handled by the court, so I point out where it says the CLERK shall certify. To which he replies that he doesn't certify anything, and that it should say judge, not clerk.
So he and his employees are willing to be rude to their citizens, and also willing to refuse to identify themselves, and he refuses to put anything he has to say in writing. So now what? at this point I wouldn't be surprised at all if my application accidentally fell into a trash can or something. They definately know my name by now. There's no reason for my permit to be denied, I have no criminal record at all, hell, I haven't had a speeding ticket in almost 10 years.
Mr. Y
Regular Member
imported post
Are you willing to sue them?
Are you willing to sue them?
ProShooter
Regular Member
imported post
builtjeep wrote:
Sounds like he's talking about an ore tenus hearing, which if memory serves, you cant request until a decision has been rendered.
You should probably contact:
Court of Appeals of Virginia
109 North Eighth Street
Richmond, VA 23219
(804) 371-8428
builtjeep wrote:
Sounds like he's talking about an ore tenus hearing, which if memory serves, you cant request until a decision has been rendered.
You should probably contact:
Court of Appeals of Virginia
109 North Eighth Street
Richmond, VA 23219
(804) 371-8428
builtjeep
Regular Member
imported post
If I had the financial means to sue, I happily would. As frustrating as this has been, and as much as I'd like to just have my permit, I want to see something done to correct the problem, not just remedy my personal situation. Noone should have to deal with such flagrant abuse of process, and if I'm on here now talking about it, how many have just quietly let it slide?
Not to mention that since noone there will put anything in writing including their names, and Mr. Scott (the Clerk) would only speak to me behind closed doors, it would simply be my word against his.
If I had the financial means to sue, I happily would. As frustrating as this has been, and as much as I'd like to just have my permit, I want to see something done to correct the problem, not just remedy my personal situation. Noone should have to deal with such flagrant abuse of process, and if I'm on here now talking about it, how many have just quietly let it slide?
Not to mention that since noone there will put anything in writing including their names, and Mr. Scott (the Clerk) would only speak to me behind closed doors, it would simply be my word against his.
builtjeep
Regular Member
imported post
the hearing he mentioned started with an F, at least I believe it did.
the hearing he mentioned started with an F, at least I believe it did.
ProShooter
Regular Member
imported post
Trust me, as far as suing, no lawyer in the area will touch that case. They rely on the clerks too much and would be screwed if they took that case.
Trust me, as far as suing, no lawyer in the area will touch that case. They rely on the clerks too much and would be screwed if they took that case.
mp3mogul
Regular Member
imported post
In Salem, it's done a bit different.
The clerk of court dates and signs your application, then you take your application to the police dept for finger prints (your clock is already running). They do the prints and the background check, and then return it to the clerk for processing.
The 45 day wait is a calendar wait, not a business day wait.
I must admit, I had a somewhat of a similar instance. Once 45 days had elapsed, I called and told them I'd be in for my temporary permit the next day. The next day I went in and stated that I wanted my temporary permit, and they had my regular permit ready. LOL... I guess they don't like issuing temporary ones.
In Salem, it's done a bit different.
The clerk of court dates and signs your application, then you take your application to the police dept for finger prints (your clock is already running). They do the prints and the background check, and then return it to the clerk for processing.
The 45 day wait is a calendar wait, not a business day wait.
I must admit, I had a somewhat of a similar instance. Once 45 days had elapsed, I called and told them I'd be in for my temporary permit the next day. The next day I went in and stated that I wanted my temporary permit, and they had my regular permit ready. LOL... I guess they don't like issuing temporary ones.
builtjeep
Regular Member
imported post
Petersburg appearently just doesn't like issuing permits, temporary or otherwise. it seems though that violated the 45 days is the norm in many areas, petersburg is just being REALLY ridiculous.
Petersburg appearently just doesn't like issuing permits, temporary or otherwise. it seems though that violated the 45 days is the norm in many areas, petersburg is just being REALLY ridiculous.
SFDoc
Regular Member
imported post
builtjeep wrote:
They don’t, Annie M. Mickens, Mayor of Petersburg (member of Bloomburg’s mayors against guns), chief of police, sheriff, city counsel and anyone else in power are strongly anti-2A. They will drag it out as long as they can. The sheriff even sent about half a dozen deputies to the GA on lobby day this year in support of the so-called gun show loophole (at the taxpayers expense according to what one of the deputies let slip to me at lunch) with the mayor’s blessings.
The mayor is the one with the red circle. Good luck. Petersburg is the armpit of VA
builtjeep wrote:
They don’t, Annie M. Mickens, Mayor of Petersburg (member of Bloomburg’s mayors against guns), chief of police, sheriff, city counsel and anyone else in power are strongly anti-2A. They will drag it out as long as they can. The sheriff even sent about half a dozen deputies to the GA on lobby day this year in support of the so-called gun show loophole (at the taxpayers expense according to what one of the deputies let slip to me at lunch) with the mayor’s blessings.
The mayor is the one with the red circle. Good luck. Petersburg is the armpit of VA
Mr. Y
Regular Member
imported post
builtjeep wrote:
Actually since he indicated that he will not issue the de-facto permit, commit him to record on this.
Also, since he cited felons applying as the reason, FOIA him for records of applicants denied for felony convictions, and whether or not they declared on the application they were felons, and if not were they prosecured for perjury. FOIA is inexpensive and fun.
Unfortunately, you canprobably guess most of us aren't in Petersburg and ... well, you are. Start with the FOIA and get them talking. They may admit something that helps tip the scales to get them to eventually change. You're the constituent so the amount of effort you're willing to put in to fix it is about as proportional as the help you'll get - not to be smartalecky, that's just reality. I have a couple FOIA examples at http://bighammer.net/rkba.htmlor you could get help from the Super Moderator.
The law is on your side. If you're willing to go back, just tell himthat by law he must send you the de-facto permit, you'll leave when he or his staff does just that. So long as you have legitimate business there and you're not breaking any law in the process, what are they going to do?
Theirprocess is illegal, period.Get him to either issue / send the defacto permit or refuse either with a witness present, or get him to sign something refusing to do so. For that matter, you may be able to convince a sympathetic person at the courthouse to be a witness. It doesn't matter that he wants the law to say something else, it matters what it says. If there's any question to what the law actually says, get him to go to the magistrate's office with you.
You need to conduct a "civil obedience" campaign with him to get your permit. Don't break the law or get belligerent, but don't accept his BS either.
builtjeep wrote:
Actually since he indicated that he will not issue the de-facto permit, commit him to record on this.
Also, since he cited felons applying as the reason, FOIA him for records of applicants denied for felony convictions, and whether or not they declared on the application they were felons, and if not were they prosecured for perjury. FOIA is inexpensive and fun.
Unfortunately, you canprobably guess most of us aren't in Petersburg and ... well, you are. Start with the FOIA and get them talking. They may admit something that helps tip the scales to get them to eventually change. You're the constituent so the amount of effort you're willing to put in to fix it is about as proportional as the help you'll get - not to be smartalecky, that's just reality. I have a couple FOIA examples at http://bighammer.net/rkba.htmlor you could get help from the Super Moderator.
The law is on your side. If you're willing to go back, just tell himthat by law he must send you the de-facto permit, you'll leave when he or his staff does just that. So long as you have legitimate business there and you're not breaking any law in the process, what are they going to do?
Theirprocess is illegal, period.Get him to either issue / send the defacto permit or refuse either with a witness present, or get him to sign something refusing to do so. For that matter, you may be able to convince a sympathetic person at the courthouse to be a witness. It doesn't matter that he wants the law to say something else, it matters what it says. If there's any question to what the law actually says, get him to go to the magistrate's office with you.
You need to conduct a "civil obedience" campaign with him to get your permit. Don't break the law or get belligerent, but don't accept his BS either.
Cynic
Regular Member
imported post
builtjeep wrote:
One of the things I find effective with jerks like this is to remind them they are ELECTED.
He is very obviously not an attorney. He doesn't understand the law. Also, the point of "with the help of the VIrginia Supreme Court" makes it obvious he has someone whispering in his ear. He is not figuring this out for himself.
The original law said the form would be proscribed by the VIrginia State Police with consultation with the Virginia Supreme Court. They haven't "helped" since 1995.
It would really be helpful if you became an activist on this. Press the Clerk. Write and call your state Senator, and state Delegate. You really need to turn up the heat.
Also, DO make the FOIA request. It is inexpensive, and it gets the talking to each other.
Back in 1995, I refused to allow myself to be fingerprinted -- well, that really isn't true, I refused to pay the (then) $24 FBI cost. When I pressed to go before the judge, my (then) Sheriff refused, stating he would just let the application sit on his desk for the (then) allowable 180 days. I had to remind him he is elected.
There was a meeting the next morning between two judges, the Sheriff, the Clerk, the County Attorney, and some Deputy, a Major Webb. They agreed I did not have to pay for the fingerprinting. That law has changed since then too -- they must now pass an ordinance to even be allowed to print people.
STAND UP TO MORONS!
builtjeep wrote:
One of the things I find effective with jerks like this is to remind them they are ELECTED.
He is very obviously not an attorney. He doesn't understand the law. Also, the point of "with the help of the VIrginia Supreme Court" makes it obvious he has someone whispering in his ear. He is not figuring this out for himself.
The original law said the form would be proscribed by the VIrginia State Police with consultation with the Virginia Supreme Court. They haven't "helped" since 1995.
It would really be helpful if you became an activist on this. Press the Clerk. Write and call your state Senator, and state Delegate. You really need to turn up the heat.
Also, DO make the FOIA request. It is inexpensive, and it gets the talking to each other.
Back in 1995, I refused to allow myself to be fingerprinted -- well, that really isn't true, I refused to pay the (then) $24 FBI cost. When I pressed to go before the judge, my (then) Sheriff refused, stating he would just let the application sit on his desk for the (then) allowable 180 days. I had to remind him he is elected.
There was a meeting the next morning between two judges, the Sheriff, the Clerk, the County Attorney, and some Deputy, a Major Webb. They agreed I did not have to pay for the fingerprinting. That law has changed since then too -- they must now pass an ordinance to even be allowed to print people.
STAND UP TO MORONS!
builtjeep
Regular Member
imported post
I've already written to the chief justice, and the VCDL are contacting the local senator and delegate. I will be going down there today to file the FOIA request for my records.
I've already written to the chief justice, and the VCDL are contacting the local senator and delegate. I will be going down there today to file the FOIA request for my records.
Morbid
Regular Member
imported post
if you have another chance to talk to this jerk off clerk, TAKE A TAPE RECORDER, record his conversation, he is lieing to you and as i have seen this on another website i will say samething i said there, his law is word of mouth, he dosen't care what the law is, that is a sad excuse for an officail. In all reality he is actuly breaking the law himself, misleading information, and putting a hold on a lawful document is aginst the law.. and if they work in a public forum they are required to give you there name that woman need to be slaped up side the head, i hate rude people and i let them know it. but normaly when they find out im a soldier there attitude changes very fast..
Wish you the best of luck..
if you have another chance to talk to this jerk off clerk, TAKE A TAPE RECORDER, record his conversation, he is lieing to you and as i have seen this on another website i will say samething i said there, his law is word of mouth, he dosen't care what the law is, that is a sad excuse for an officail. In all reality he is actuly breaking the law himself, misleading information, and putting a hold on a lawful document is aginst the law.. and if they work in a public forum they are required to give you there name that woman need to be slaped up side the head, i hate rude people and i let them know it. but normaly when they find out im a soldier there attitude changes very fast..
Wish you the best of luck..
Mr. Y
Regular Member
imported post
Usually they forbid recorders in the court house. Judges sometimes make controversial statements thatland them in hot water, or like the judges in MD who were pressed for ROs and the applicant was denied, then later killed by the subject of the potential ro... There's other reasonsfor this too, but primarily, it's a tool to protect the government.
Usually they forbid recorders in the court house. Judges sometimes make controversial statements thatland them in hot water, or like the judges in MD who were pressed for ROs and the applicant was denied, then later killed by the subject of the potential ro... There's other reasonsfor this too, but primarily, it's a tool to protect the government.
Goliath
Regular Member
imported post
I got a similar kind of run around from the clerk of the Albemarle Circuit Court. Not quite as bad but when I called after 48 days, her reply was "the judge is busy and we will get to it when we get to it". Not beingone to take that kind of answer, I called the Chief Justice of the Supreme Courts office. His clerk was very nice and helpful. He took all my info, told me the Chief Justice was taking these kind of complaints seriously, and then transfered me over to the board of Judicial review. I made my call to the Chief Justice at 11, at 2:30 the Albemarle Clerk called and told me that I could come get my permit. Guess the judge wasn't that busy after all.
It wouldn't hurt to make that call and see if someone can light a fire.
I got a similar kind of run around from the clerk of the Albemarle Circuit Court. Not quite as bad but when I called after 48 days, her reply was "the judge is busy and we will get to it when we get to it". Not beingone to take that kind of answer, I called the Chief Justice of the Supreme Courts office. His clerk was very nice and helpful. He took all my info, told me the Chief Justice was taking these kind of complaints seriously, and then transfered me over to the board of Judicial review. I made my call to the Chief Justice at 11, at 2:30 the Albemarle Clerk called and told me that I could come get my permit. Guess the judge wasn't that busy after all.
It wouldn't hurt to make that call and see if someone can light a fire.
DoubleR
Campaign Veteran
imported post
+1, Goliath. This would likely be the fastest of choices.
Clerk - Trish Harrington
Chief Deputy Clerk - Doug Robelen
Deputy Clerk - Lesley David
Deputy Clerk - Ebby Edwards
Supreme Court of Virginia
100 North Ninth Street, 5[suP]th[/suP] Floor
Richmond, Virginia 23219
(804) 786-2251
+1, Goliath. This would likely be the fastest of choices.
Clerk - Trish Harrington
Chief Deputy Clerk - Doug Robelen
Deputy Clerk - Lesley David
Deputy Clerk - Ebby Edwards
Supreme Court of Virginia
100 North Ninth Street, 5[suP]th[/suP] Floor
Richmond, Virginia 23219
(804) 786-2251
builtjeep
Regular Member
imported post
I've now written to the Justice, and both my local Senator and Delegate. We'll see if any of them have anything to say on the situation. In the mean time I'll be making the FOIA requests at the clerks office, if nothing else than to remain a constant pain in his a$$.
Mike
I've now written to the Justice, and both my local Senator and Delegate. We'll see if any of them have anything to say on the situation. In the mean time I'll be making the FOIA requests at the clerks office, if nothing else than to remain a constant pain in his a$$.
Mike
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
Folks - what has to happen here is for an applicant to drop off a notarized check and application and $50 with the clerk and walk away - and go try to get fingerprinted by the police.
Only then after 45 days when nothing happens will you have standing to file a mandamus action against the Clerk.
Do it smart - recruit people to stand up in the first place against unlawful CHP application processes - after you get your permit, it is too late to force them to act properly./
Folks - what has to happen here is for an applicant to drop off a notarized check and application and $50 with the clerk and walk away - and go try to get fingerprinted by the police.
Only then after 45 days when nothing happens will you have standing to file a mandamus action against the Clerk.
Do it smart - recruit people to stand up in the first place against unlawful CHP application processes - after you get your permit, it is too late to force them to act properly./
Morbid
Regular Member
imported post
That is weird im not going to argue my position on it because im not 100% positive but I have been in a murder as a watcher was a school project im not sure if the judge had a problem with it or not but me and my fellow class mates recorded the hole proceedings along with the verdict for our paper in a criminal justice class i took a long time ago lol so it may be different now im just speaking from my personal experience i had no idea you couldn't record a court clerk. I mean technically there not a judge just a clerk a voted in clerk if i am correct which means he only and official of the people. Again my experience could have been a one time thing. I am not going to say im rite your wrong because honestly i have no idea lol... but good pick up if i am better to be corrected the to be wrong all together.
That is weird im not going to argue my position on it because im not 100% positive but I have been in a murder as a watcher was a school project im not sure if the judge had a problem with it or not but me and my fellow class mates recorded the hole proceedings along with the verdict for our paper in a criminal justice class i took a long time ago lol so it may be different now im just speaking from my personal experience i had no idea you couldn't record a court clerk. I mean technically there not a judge just a clerk a voted in clerk if i am correct which means he only and official of the people. Again my experience could have been a one time thing. I am not going to say im rite your wrong because honestly i have no idea lol... but good pick up if i am better to be corrected the to be wrong all together.