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Thread: Online Petion for Military SSN Privacy Would Help Veterans Using DOD ID for Gun Related Transactions

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    http://www.PetitionOnline.com/NOSSN4ID

    if you are military or military related, let's roll!

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    'Signature' #7 B8756XX

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    And if you have military related friends or family, send the petition link by email.

    And by the way, if anyone objects to me hijacking my own web site, please know that thing SSN on military docs comes up in in many states - where gun dealers or police insist on copying the ID or SSN when presented for various gun related - of the police want an unredacted DD Form 214, etc.

    I hope John does not ban me:?

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    And if you have military related friends or family, send the petition link by email.

    And by the way, if anyone objects to me hijacking my own web site, please know that thing SSN on military docs comes up in in many states - where gun dealers or police insist on copying the ID or SSN when presented for various gun related - of the police want an unredacted DD Form 214, etc.

    I hope John does not ban me:?
    #11

    Never in the military but I vote every chance I get.

    Hope it was OK to sign.

    Mike, I don't think you have a lot to worry about.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    #13. We just had a discussion about this in my unit. It does seem absurd to hand over such information to foreign troops, especially non friendly, if ever the situation arose. But these day’s we are not even fighting legitimate troops, but people just as cunning and determined to destroy Americans and the west in general, without honor, be them uniformed or not.



    I personally would like to see SS#’s stopped being used as an ID for all Americans. But I suppose we can start with the uniformed services and then help our cousins in the real world. I know more than a few service members that are willing to sign this. Believe me they will hear about this.



    Who’s idea was it to use socials for ID< did it just melt into that like so many other customs we seem to have with our legal sysytem?

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    lukeshort wrote:
    Who’s idea was it to use socials for ID< did it just melt into that like so many other customs we seem to have with our legal sysytem?
    I don't know how it emerged into an I.D. #. but when I got mine 40 years ago, on the back, the first thing it said was "Not for identification purposes" now it says "Do not laminate". What a difference.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    rodbender wrote:
    lukeshort wrote:
    Who’s idea was it to use socials for ID< did it just melt into that like so many other customs we seem to have with our legal sysytem?
    I don't know how it emerged into an I.D. #. but when I got mine 40 years ago, on the back, the first thing it said was "Not for identification purposes" now it says "Do not laminate". What a difference.
    The times have changed, and not for the better. I feel like a numbered member in a herd of livestock sometimes. Moooooo!




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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    lukeshort wrote:
    rodbender wrote:
    lukeshort wrote:
    Who’s idea was it to use socials for ID< did it just melt into that like so many other customs we seem to have with our legal sysytem?
    I don't know how it emerged into an I.D. #. but when I got mine 40 years ago, on the back, the first thing it said was "Not for identification purposes" now it says "Do not laminate". What a difference.
    The times have changed, and not for the better. I feel like a numbered member in a herd of livestock sometimes. Moooooo!


    Baaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaaaa
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    # 15 ..USMC

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    I signed...

    Never in the Military but a son in NOW in the AirForce.

    JoeSparky


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    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    #17

    Let's go guys.....

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Don't worry about the ssn link to firearms transactions. Real ID requires a ssn and BATFE will require Real ID for firearms transactions. Scary.

    The use of electronic records instead of bound books for dealers is another bad omen.

    As a vet I think military ssn privacy would be good thing. Problem is ssn privacy for anybody is being totally preempted by Real ID.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Dealers still have to keep printed "bound books" even if they use the e-4473 filing, and approved transactions result in the destruction of buyer information from what electronic records are created (we don't e-file for that reason - it's just a duplication of effort for us). Also, military IDs aren't by themselves sufficient to get a gun (neither is a passport, because neither establishes a state of residence). Further, giving your SS# on a 4473 is optional, so I don't see the problem, apart from giving your SS# to your captors, if it somes to that.

    -ljp

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    #25 Keep it going!

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    #30

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    Folks - can you spread this petition to the military replaetd blogs and lists you have?

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    #31. :celebrate

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    #32

    I've always thought it kind of stupid. If I'm capture I'm supposed to give out my ID number, which is my SSN. So now I'm giving my SSN to terrorists? I hate SS altogether so a little step to remove it from daily life is better than the opposite.

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    It pisses me off how my ssn floats freely all over my command on just about every piece of paper you can imagine half of them with my name next to it.

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    #43, I thought this should stop 13 years ago when I got out. Good luck to you, ladies and gentlemen.

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    # 55 JarHead :celebrate

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    Signed USMC #61

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    Looks like DOD agencies are even fighting the move to last 4 of SSN on ID Cards!

    --



    http://www.armytimes.com/issues/stories/0-ARMYPAPER-3675974.php

    Exchanges still demanding SSNs
    Policies at odds with DoD drive to protect IDs
    By Karen Jowers - kjowers@militarytimes.com
    Posted : August 25, 2008

    The Army and Air Force Exchange Service and the Navy Exchange Service Command are requiring patrons who do not have Social Security numbers on their military ID cards to produce another document displaying that number in order to conduct certain transactions.

    The policies are in effect despite the Pentagon’s ongoing multiyear effort to phase out routine use of full Social Security numbers as official identifiers to minimize the risk of identity theft.

    A retired Army lieutenant colonel has filed a complaint with the Pentagon Inspector General about AAFES’ requirements for Social Security numbers.

    The policy “flouts the intent of Congress and DoD to take the SSN off the ID card,” retired Army Lt. Col. Mike Stollenwerk, of Alexandria, Va., wrote in an Aug. 9 letter to the IG.

    Stollenwerk said he has tried unsuccessfully to resolve the issue with AAFES officials.

    Carrying anything that displays the Social Security number could put a customer at risk for identity theft, he said. He advocates removing the entire Social Security number from military ID cards, an effort centered around a petition he has posted online at http://www.petitiononline.com/NOSSN4ID

    Over the next few years, all new Defense Department-issued ID cards for troops, family members, retirees and civilian employees will carry only the last four digits of the SSN, officials said.

    Starting in 2012, officials also will remove the complete SSNs from the bar code on all new or renewed cards.

    Judd Anstey, an AAFES spokesman, said the Defense Department uses Social Security numbers “for all financial transactions to identify and locate service members and their authorized dependents.”

    “Consequently, AAFES must continue to require SSNs for certain financial transactions — i.e. checks and refunds at military exchanges — until the military services and DoD develop alternate methods of identifying service members and their families,” he said.

    The SSNs of spouses and other family members “are used to validate them as shoppers,” Anstey said.

    However, he said, AAFES has been reviewing technological alternatives for about a year in light of the Defense Department’s plan to remove SSNs from ID cards. He said the exchange service is looking to upgrade its technology so SSNs can be read off the bar codes on new ID cards, eliminating the need for patrons to produce some other document with their SSN on it.

    Anstey said he wasn’t sure when that change might take effect.

    For now, signs in AAFES stores inform customers that if they pay by check and do not have their SSN on the ID card, they must show another document, such as an actual Social Security card, a medical card or a driver’s license, if it displays the Social Security number.

    SSN even required for refund
    Stollenwerk said he is particularly puzzled by AAFES’ requirement to provide an SSN to get a refund. When he tried to return a shirt to an AAFES store in 2005, the employee required his Social Security number, even though he had paid by credit card and wanted the refund on his card.

    “I wouldn’t give them my number, they wouldn’t give me the refund, so I left the shirt,” he said. “I disputed it on my credit card and won the dispute.”

    Anstey said SSNs are required for refunds so AAFES can check whether the customer has a bad check in the system and, if so, recoup the money, and as a safeguard to ensure customers are not trying to obtain a refund fraudulently.

    The Navy Exchange Service Command does not require customers to produce SSNs when seeking refunds, but customers must show a document with their SSN on it when paying by check, cashing a check, or making a Western Union transaction of more than $3,000, said spokeswoman Kristine Sturkie.

    Coast Guard exchanges require an SSN if the customer is cashing a check or paying by check.

    In Marine Corps exchanges, “we do not require proof if the ... SSN is not on their ID card,” said Sara Meadows, point of sale systems manager for the Marine Corps’ Personal & Family Readiness Division.

    The Defense Commissary Agency uses the military sponsor’s SSN when the family member pays by check, said spokesman Ronald Kelly.

    Jean Ann Fox, director of consumer protection for the Consumer Federation of America, said it is “certainly inconsistent for these activities to demand a Social Security number, when the Defense Department is ... removing it” from ID cards.

    “This is bureaucracy gone crazy,” Stollenwerk said.



    --
    http://www.armytimes.com/issues/stories/0-ARMYPAPER-3677745.php


    Editorial: Keep SSNs private

    -
    Posted : August 25, 2008

    The Defense Department is in the midst of a multiyear effort to eliminate full Social Security numbers from ID cards.

    The new Common Access Card issued to service members does not include SSNs. ID cards for family members and retirees will also drop SSNs, or at least all but the last four digits, within a few years.

    Many states no longer use SSNs for driver’s license numbers.

    The reason is simple: In the digital age, a Social Security number is all a savvy thief needs to steal someone’s identity and ruin his credit rating.

    “Today, all of our [computer] systems can ‘talk’ to each other, so we don’t necessarily need to know all of that information printed on your card,” Mary Dixon, the Defense Department’s Common Access Card program manager, said in April.

    Not quite all systems. The Army and Air Force Exchange Service and Navy Exchange Service Command still require patrons paying by check to produce a document showing their SSN. AAFES even requires an SSN to process a refund on a returned item.

    That means that even as SSNs vanish from ID cards, the exchanges are forcing patrons to physically possess some other crucial document, such as a Social Security card or a passport, in order to write a check or get a refund at the stores.

    The AAFES and NEXCOM policies are defeating the Defense Department’s efforts to get Social Security numbers out of public view.

    No commercial retailer would require customers to verify Social Security numbers. No military exchange should, either.

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    #62.I have a name! My name is Marcus T.Murphy. I am not a cow. I do not have a brand orexcept anumber,or anything, as anIdentification. You may call me Mr. or SSgt. Murphy. IfYouwishto call me anything else. I willpersonally kick your A**. I will die before you make me a form of chattel. I except mySS# to only humor you and make my life easy. I am an American, that should comfort you or you'll loose sleep.It's up to you???!!.

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    Mike wrote:
    Judd Anstey, an AAFES spokesman, said the Defense Department uses Social Security numbers “for all financial transactions to identify and locate service members and their authorized dependents.”

    “Consequently, AAFES must continue to require SSNs for certain financial transactions — i.e. checks and refunds at military exchanges — until the military services and DoD develop alternate methods of identifying service members and their families,” he said.

    The SSNs of spouses and other family members “are used to validate them as shoppers,” Anstey said.
    I call bullcrap on this one! Why the hell would he need our SSN to verify that we're authorized to use the facility? Wouldn't the proper ID be proof enough?

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