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Thread: Who NEEDS a Gun in Wisconsin

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    Pregnant Woman Carjacked
    http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/25518139.html

    Milwaukee: A pregnant woman was carjacked in Milwaukee: thugs took her minivan in broad daylight. It happened at 68th and Villard.

    The woman said she has been coming to the gas station at 68th and Villard for years with no problem, until Tuesday in broad daylight. The woman was pumping gas on pump 7 when she noticed two guys hanging around the air station. “I didn't think nothing of it. They casually got up and ran behind me and pulled out a gun and put the gun on my stomach and told me to give them the damn keys,” the woman said.

    She's eight and half months pregnant, still terrified and didn't want to be identified. The gun was pointed at her stomach. Her first concern was for her baby. “I threw him the keys and he told me to show which key it was and I showed him and then I ran off,” the woman said.

    The suspects sped off east on Villard, leaving her stranded. They also took her cell phone. She ran into the store for help. “I ran in the store and told him to call police but he didn't cause he said he didn't see anything and told me to call the police,” the woman said. She says she was told to use a pay phone, but someone let her use their cell phone.

    Larry Gammill was working across the street when he saw the van speed off. “It baffles me in the middle of the daytime something like that can happen, and she's 8 1/2 months pregnant. Oh and in this heat being stranded out there I’m sure she was going out of her mind trying to figure out what to do,” Gammill said.

    The van was last seen at 55th and Fairmount and hasn't been seen since. It's a maroon 2000 Dodge Caravan with Wisconsin plates. The suspects are in their teens.Their victim just hopes they are found.

    “No respect at all. I mean in broad daylight and there was people standing and the way it happened,” the woman said.

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    Pointman wrote:
    She ran into the store for help. “I ran in the store and told him to call police but he didn't cause he said he didn't see anything and told me to call the police,” the woman said. She says she was told to use a pay phone,
    What a dirtbag! I'll bet she won't be loyally using that gas station anymore.

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    My CWP instructor taught 'kill a carjacker when he breaks the plane of the window.' There is abundant evidence that self-defense with lethal force is justified in a carjacking. The four elements of common-law self-defense are; 1)be innocent of instigation. 2) be in reasonable fear of bodily harm. 3) use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil. 4) attempt to withdraw.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    My CWP instructor taught 'kill a carjacker when he breaks the plane of the window.' There is abundant evidence that self-defense with lethal force is justified in a carjacking. The four elements of common-law self-defense are; 1)be innocent of instigation. 2) be in reasonable fear of bodily harm. 3) use sufficient force only to deliver oneself from evil. 4) attempt to withdraw.
    Rule 5) Live in a state where you can have a loaded gun in your car and on your person while pumping gas.

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    asforme wrote:
    Pointman wrote:
    She ran into the store for help. “I ran in the store and told him to call police but he didn't cause he said he didn't see anything and told me to call the police,” the woman said. She says she was told to use a pay phone,
    What a dirtbag! I'll bet she won't be loyally using that gas station anymore.
    x2! That is utterly disgusting! The guy will likely try and get our of providing video evidence of the incident becasue he dosen't want to get involved. Anyone know what gas station it was at?

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    Pointman wrote:
    Larry Gammill was working across the street when he saw the van speed off. “It baffles me in the middle of the daytime something like that can happen, and she's 8 1/2 months pregnant. Oh and in this heat being stranded out there I’m sure she was going out of her mind trying to figure out what to do,” Gammill said.
    A typical sheep response. "I can't belive it could happen here". "I can't belive it would happen to this person". Newspapers by the way love to print quotes like this.It helps to reinforce the sheep's mentality that there are other people that can't fathom that such bad things could happen so close to them.

    Well start believing, this kind of $hit happens all the time! And next time, it could be you. So be prepared, you may not getanother chance....

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    Police Can't Catch Criminals Unless They're Gift-Wrapped

    Partially sourced from:
    http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/12804677.html
    http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=700393
    http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=700771

    How effective are Milwaukee police when it comes to defending you? Not even good enough to catch an armed robber who hits the same store four times in the same day, four days in a row.

    A black male, between 16 and 19 years old, 5' 7" to 5' 9" tall, was recorded on video stealing a can of Red Bull and some candy from the Clark gas station at 6028 West Fond du Lac Avenue, at the intersection of 60th & Fond du Lac. He has a light to medium complexion and thin to medium build. He usually wears a black or gray hooded sweat shirt.

    Like a predatory shark, the stealing continued, and it wasn't long before he invited friends. "He will bring the other guys in and tells them, 'This is my store' and say 'Take whatever you want,' and he stands there," said store employee Mandy Brar. "They will keep coming back and keep taking the stuff like candies and Red Bulls and whatever they want." According to police, the suspect stole an estimated $3,000 in merchandise and caused thousands more in damage.

    After repeated thefts, employees kept a lookout and saw him coming on December 11th and locked the doors before he entered the store, which outraged the suspect who then fired a shot into the air. When an employee stuck his head out of a door the suspect tried to gun him down, but missed. Employees stopped locking the doors. "December 11th, 12th, 14th, and 15th they came four times in a day," said Brar. "If you don't give it to them they trash the place and they take whatever they want and leave."

    Police Detective Shannon Lewandowski said between December 11th and 19th the suspect visited the store nearly every day, adding, "He shows the gun and says, 'You can't do anything to me,' " She also said an accomplice stole a black Mercedes when the driver went to pay for gas, and the main suspect is suspected of in-store robberies similar to the Clark thefts at a nearby BP gas station.

    Unarmed store employees tried to fight back, but were no match against the gang of thieves. When the main suspect appeared to be alone an employee went after him with a stick, but two others appeared from outside, grabbed the stick and beat the employee.

    Brar said, "We call 9-1-1 every time." "We have cops over here who also have given me their cell phone [number to call] anytime I see him out here. I call them first before 9-1-1." "The whole District 7 is after them. When I come in in the morning, there is a police car waiting in the lot because of what's happening."

    Outsmarting police, the suspect was able to identify parked squads and didn't stop at the store the three days the officers sat in the parking lot, but returned the following day. Employees attempted to lock him in the store, but failed. Store manager Ish Dhawan said the suspect told a clerk he knew the police were after him, but wouldn't be able to catch him--and for several weeks, he was correct.

    The 16-year-old was finally arrested December 26th after employee Rajinder Singh recognized him gesturing toward the store while getting into a car at about 1:45 PM, and immediately reported the license plate to police. The suspect left without incident, but when the police arrived later that evening they saw the car pulling out of the station. The suspect ran from the car but was caught.

    Because the suspect is under 18, little if any further information will be released. Chances are his accomplices won't be taken into custody and charged unless he provides their names to police. As a minor, there's little incentive to do so in exchange for a lighter sentence, because sentences are usually light to begin with.

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    Pointman wrote:
    Police Can't Catch Criminals Unless They're Gift-Wrapped
    That is pretty sad. You know, why didn't the store hire private security, or have remote video monitoring. I was in a 7-11 a couple years ago in Baltimore that had been robbed numerous times. They eneded up installing remote video surveillance with a company. One day the security company called and asked if everthing was ok. They saw the clerk wearing a baseball and and couldn't confirm exactly who it was, and called to check. They also had a criminal board at the store where everyone could see suspect and bad check writer photos. They spent some money, but it worked.

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    Pointman wrote:
    Police Can't Catch Criminals Unless They're Gift-Wrapped
    Wow. That force needs to start using unmarked cars, or if they were, they need to learn how to use them.

    Those employees were really lucky that the criminals were only interested in stealingthings, instead of in more violent types of mayhem.

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    Wow. Whata story...the wolves keep coming back to feast. And do anything to get in their way and they go crazy.

    If I owned a convenience store I would carry all the time. Your average convenience store robber will be scared $hitless to find armed resistance. You can watch a video on youtube of a little lady foiling a robbery with a little revolver from a back room, a robbery of at least one armed robber! They ran away like little girls....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgzv-...eature=related


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    trailblazer2003 wrote:
    You know, why didn't the store hire private security, or have remote video monitoring.
    Good questions, by all means, and there are logical answers. In Wisconsin, security guards are observers, and rarely armed. We have no castle doctrine, so the guards must retreat if armed, generally speaking. So, at $45 per hour, the store would lose money, and the guard would have to walk out of the store into the parking lot and call police.

    Remote video probably wouldn't help, as the employees called the police officers themselves, right to the officer's cell phone, before the suspects entered the store in many cases. So we have a case of informing the police units of an armedrobbery before it happens. Response time is definitely an issue.

    The suspect reportedly attempted to murder a store employee out of frustration. I don't know if that's 100% true, but it does show the danger the suspect placed the employees and customers in.

    Police cruisers are easy to spot, even the unmarked ones. Look for the lights on the dash, lack of hubcaps,and listen for the engine idle.

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    Pointman wrote:
    We have no castle doctrine, so the guards must retreat if armed, generally speaking.
    I'm not sure there's a "duty to retreat" in Wisconsin. Can somebody cite a statute or case that says there is?

    My fuzzy memory is that a "Castle Doctrine" law in Wisconsin is not needed because the WI Supreme Court decided long ago that there's no duty to retreat.
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    Shotgun wrote:
    My fuzzy memory is that a "Castle Doctrine" law in Wisconsin is not needed because the WI Supreme Court decided long ago that there's no duty to retreat.
    Whoa, that's something we need to verify, learn the details (where the Devil hides) and advertise!

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    One of a number of footnotes in the Wisconsin statutes:

    "While there is no statutory duty to retreat, whether the opportunity to retreat was available goes to whether the defendant reasonably believed the force used was necessary to prevent an interference with his or her person. A jury instruction to that effect was proper. State v. Wenger, 225 Wis. 2d 495, 593 N.W.2d 467 (Ct. App. 1999), 98−1739."

    A. Gold

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    Typical of Wisconsin laws.

    There's no "duty" to retreat, but if you don't take an "opportunity" to retreat, they'll use it against you in jury instructions....

    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

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    If I recall correctly some of the criticism of the proposed Wisconsin "Castle Doctrine" bill, the wording limits the "castle doctrine" to one's residence, whereas, currently the "no duty to retreat" applies to wherever one may be. I think there may be a much older case, early 1900's... but more difficult to research.
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    A Castle Doctrine law was passed by the Wisconsin Assembly as bill AB35 on May 11, 2007. The Bill went on to the Senate and was stalled in anti-gun Lena Taylor's Judiciary committee, where it died without coming up for a Senate vote.

    The bill was intended to be added to State Statute 939.48 which is the statute that covers defense of self and others. The Statute as it now exists essentially says you have the right to use deadly force if you believe you are, or a third person, are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. The question of course is who defines imminent danger and what constitutes great bodily harm and you best had not provoked the attack in any way.

    A companion statute, Statute 939.49 covers Defense of property. It in effect says that the use of dealy force is not reasonable for defense of property soley. In other words if you encounter a burglar ransacking your garage you best not shoot him.

    The following cases address various aspects of use of deadly force for self-defense.

    Ruff v State
    State v Camacho
    State v Wenger
    Clark v Ziedonis

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    Can you believe it? The eight Minneapolis cops that raided the wrong house last December have received medals. They received bad information and raided the house because they were told a gang member with guns lived there. The home owner thought the cops were intruders and shot at them to protect his family. The cops returned fire and shot up the place. Undoubtably they shot with intent to kill the homeowner but failed. Minneapolis police chief Tim Dolan said "The officers put themselves in harm's way. They were shot at and shot and deserved to be recognized". How do we protect ourselves from our protectors? Especially when they get medals for shooting at us.

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    Lammie wrote:
    Can you believe it? The eight Minneapolis cops that raided the wrong house last December have received medals. They received bad information and raided the house because they were told a gang member with guns lived there. The home owner thought the cops were intruders and shot at them to protect his family. The cops returned fire and shot up the place. Undoubtably they shot with intent to kill the homeowner but failed. Minneapolis police chief Tim Dolan said "The officers put themselves in harm's way. They were shot at and shot and deserved to be recognized". How do we protect ourselves from our protectors? Especially when they get medals for shooting at us.
    Yes, I'm glad I didn't have anything in my mouth when I read that. Looks like the decision to award medals is taking quite a beating in the press too.

    The person responsible for sending them to the wrong address should have been fired at the very least.

    The Minneapolis police chief was so anxious to hand out some feel-good medals, and this is the best he could find? Been a slow year for the police there?

    Another thing, these were "SWAT?" They weren't very effective, were they? What the hell kind of training did they get? The "untrained" victim got hits on, what? Three of them? SWAT fired wildly getting zero hits. Pathetic.

    Last but not least, it's a slap in the face to police who did their job well-- and didn't **** up-- and received no special recognition.
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    Apparently the software didn't like my language. I know I didn't type a bunch of symbols in my last post!
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Pointman wrote:
    trailblazer2003 wrote:
    You know, why didn't the store hire private security, or have remote video monitoring.
    Good questions, by all means, and there are logical answers. In Wisconsin, security guards are observers, and rarely armed. We have no castle doctrine, so the guards must retreat if armed, generally speaking. So, at $45 per hour, the store would lose money, and the guard would have to walk out of the store into the parking lot and call police.
    Good to know if I ever do see an armed guard at a store. Eye candy to keep "some" low level thugs at bay. Also $45 doesn't sound bad, unfortunatly the guard will only get about $11 if he/she is lucky. I made more as an unarmed in a hospital in Baltimore!

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    The 4 out of 9 people that got shot all needed a gun!!! WTF??? I mean i know when you go swimming you don't count on anything like this happening but if I was up north i'd be carrying and would most likely take them with my shorts swimming taking my holster and pistol off first, behind cover if i needed to use it and very close. (thats what i do everytime i put a gun down is strategically place it.( like when deer hunting)



    Alli know is that this is disgusting!!! that this happened and tehy were so defenseless.

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Lammie wrote:
    Can you believe it? The eight Minneapolis cops that raided the wrong house last December have received medals. They received bad information and raided the house because they were told a gang member with guns lived there. The home owner thought the cops were intruders and shot at them to protect his family. The cops returned fire and shot up the place. Undoubtably they shot with intent to kill the homeowner but failed. Minneapolis police chief Tim Dolan said "The officers put themselves in harm's way. They were shot at and shot and deserved to be recognized". How do we protect ourselves from our protectors? Especially when they get medals for shooting at us.
    Yes, I'm glad I didn't have anything in my mouth when I read that. Looks like the decision to award medals is taking quite a beating in the press too.

    The person responsible for sending them to the wrong address should have been fired at the very least.

    The Minneapolis police chief was so anxious to hand out some feel-good medals, and this is the best he could find? Been a slow year for the police there?

    Another thing, these were "SWAT?" They weren't very effective, were they? What the hell kind of training did they get? The "untrained" victim got hits on, what? Three of them? SWAT fired wildly getting zero hits. Pathetic.

    Last but not least, it's a slap in the face to police who did their job well-- and didn't @#$% up-- and received no special recognition.
    People assume that the police are well trained. Bad assumption. Let's just say that I know for a fact that there is one PD that will have their officers shoot until they qualify. (Hit a paper plate at 7yrds, 21 feet) If at first you don't succeed, try try again. The lack of training goes beyond just shooting too.

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    Sometimes I find it hard to believe how gullible people can be. I had one person respond to my recent post that the reason the Minneapolis police fired so many shots is because they were just trying to wound the homeowner or scare him into surrender. Where do people get those ideas? When a police officer draws his weapon with the intent to return deadly fire they are trained to do it with only one intent "shoot to kill". It is perposperous to think they would only shoot to wound or scare. For their safety, the safety of fellow officers and the safety of bystanders they are taught that deadly force should be the last resort but if they must use deadly force it must be deadly force. The reason that so many shots were fired by the Minneapolis police without any human effect is that under the excitement of the moment and the adrenalin rush of the moment they were just plain bad shots.

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    And some of my co riders with the goldwing road riders wonder why i won't go to yearly bike events in states like madison wis. HUM?????

    An armed society is a polite society!!!

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