Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Hello from new forum member

  1. #1
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Orange County, California, USA
    Posts
    912

    Post imported post

    Hello there I have been an avid shooter of both pistols and rifles for about 18 years now. Upon my last visit to the range this past weekend, one of the members of my dad's shooting group (Inland Shooters) was informing me of the legalities of openly carrying in the state of california. I met so many people that day, I feel bad for not being able to remember his name. I believe it was kevin, and he was there with his uncle shooting an M16 or AR 15, not sure which. They were CA legal, though

    Anyhow, on to my question:

    I have spent the better part of my working day today reading and trying to absorb as much info as I can from this website and californiaopencarry.org, and other california gun owners forums. I saw under california state penal code 12025, 12025.5, 12026 that openly carrying or lawfully carrying a firearm openly is allowed. To make sure my local Law Enforcement Office would have an understanding I called (Orange County Sheriff's Department in Santa Ana, California) and asked if there were any state, city or county laws, penal codes or ordinances that would prohibit me from lawfully open-carrying an unloaded firearm. The officer on the other end of the line was very polite, told me that they believed it was illegal, under CA State Penal Code 12020 as brandishing a firearm.

    After reading the penal code here:
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacode...020-12040.html

    I saw it as a person is in violation if they carry concealed. I think this goes in conjunction with CA Penal Code 12025/.5 that lawfully carrying is defined as openly carrying, unloaded, etc etc.

    I'm confused. I'm not sure how to proceed on the subject with my local Law Enforcement Office, and avoiding a negative incident with local law enforcement when I do decide to openly carry is ideal. Should I call my local sheriff's department again and ask to speak to someone higher up for clarification? The last thing I want to do is take someone important away from a critical task and waste their time (it is as valuable as mine imho). Is there a way I can provide to them clarification so I don't become wrongfully imprisoned, searched or have my weapon siezed? I'm in Costa Mesa, which is quite close to a heavy gang area (Santa Ana).

    I do understand that officers of the law may make uneducated actions at times, but for both our sake's I want to minimize that -- even when providing the open-carry pamphlets available. (We all know that literature sometimes is not enough).

    I thank you for reading this far, and hopefully providing some insight. Also, are there any other Orange County OCers local? Maybe there's a good range nearby.

    ~D
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA
    Posts
    33

    Post imported post

    with regard to asking police departments on the lagality of OCing, i've read A LOT on this forum not to even bother (i.e., LEOs, in general, will try to discourage you to OC, even if it mean feeding you inaccurate info). i'm still learning the laws, so i can't offer you much more than that.

  3. #3
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Shasta County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,231

    Post imported post

    Welcome to OCDO.

    Im pleased that you have chosen to educate yourself on the benefits and limitations of open carry in the State of California.

    Asking law enforcement aboutfirearms law will net you some interesting responses, however it seldom results in the dispensation of sound legal advice. The advice most leo's will give about open carry or the lawful carry of any firearm is simply 'not to do it'. Often they will tell those who enquire that it is not lawful and such activity will certainly result in an arrest. Police will lie in order to influence your behavior.

    As for believing that you are wasting their time- I can assure you that you are not. You are a citizen with a valid concern. Law enforcement officers are paid civil servants with an obligation to be helpful to the members of the community in which they serve. If you ask me, I would say that the officer who told you open carry is illegal wasted your time, by making up an answer or passing on false information to discourage you from doing something that is your lawful right to do if you chose to.

    If you want legal advice, your best chance at an honest answer would be from a competent attorney. I am not an attorney- and as far as I am aware, there are none on the California section of OCDO.

    If you want to be sure that your open carry experiences are positive experiences, you will need to first, follow the law to the letter and second be polite and firm with all your law enforcement contacts. This is not to say that you will not be arrested, even obeying the law.

    You may even try this with a group before going solo- this appears to be gathering some popularity and dinner meet ups are an easy way to get started. You could open carry and wait for an encounter with police (Both CA_Libertarian and myselfcarried for a year before police contact was made.)or you can take a pre-emptive approach and write a letter to all of the agencies in your vicinity, stating that you know open carry of a firearm is legal, that you will be conducting your daily activities while openly armed, and that you anticipate their department to be fully aware of the law so if there is a report of an armed subject, they will have both the training and situational awareness to make any contact or detention as breif and nonthreatening as possible for those lawfully armed. If you do send such a letter, make sure there is some proof that they have received it.

    Please do continue to read the penal code and the various experiences of open carry found here before taking the leap.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,748

    Post imported post

    Hello and welcome to our forum!

    Now...where to begin. How about with the lies. Brandishing is not defined in 12020, it is defined in 417(a)(2) and it reads:

    Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
    any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
    unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
    manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
    punishable as follows:


    So you see, unless you are drawing or exhibiting your firearm in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, then you can't brandish. If you point to your holstered sidearm and with a big grin on your face pretend to shoot yourself in the head with your finger, then you might be brandishing because it could be construed as being threatening. Standing around acting like a normal person as if your sidearm wasn't there shouldn't be construed to be brandishing.

    It is the opinion of most everybody on this forum that 12025(f) allows the open carry of an unloaded firearm provided it is in a belt holster. If 12025(f) doesn't allow this, then why is it there? Surely our representatives didn't throw it in there even though we're not allowed to open carry because it is considered brandishing. That wouldn't be very logical. The only rational explanation of it's purpose is to exist as an exception to the bulk of 12025, which deals with the carrying of concealed weapons. So if we can carry a firearm in a belt holster, and it isn't considered to be concealed, and if you
    aren't threatening anybody with your firearm, or waving it around wildly or something like that, then it should be legal to do. To me it sounds like you completely agree with this reasoning. It's the Sherrifs that don't.

    All logic aside though, it sounds like you might not be up to the task of open carrying due to the risk of confrontation. It sounds like you wouldn't want a police officer to waste his or her time dilly dallying with whether or not open carrying is legal and instead out there actually preventing some crimes. I think we all feel that way too. But unfortunately, confrontations do occur, and you must be willing to deal with them in an appropriate manner. You might want to go down to the Costa Mesa police department and see if you can arrange a meeting with a higher up so the police force could be trained about the legalities of open carrying. That might prevent any wasted time on either of your parts. However, you might find that they don't have time to spend to discuss laws with you, or they refuse to state an opinion on the matter, or
    that they just don't agree with you.

    Also, keep in mind that even if they completely agree with you on the legalities of open carrying, the police are still entitled to check your weapon to see if it is loaded under 12031(e).

    One thing that might help is taking the memo that Sacramento Police recently sent out down to the police station and seeing what they have to say then. You can find that here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/13674.html

    Hope that helps.


  5. #5
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Stanislaus County, California, USA
    Posts
    2,586

    Post imported post

    bigtoe416 wrote:
    One thing that might help is taking the memo that Sacramento Police recently sent out down to the police station and seeing what they have to say then. You can find that here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/13674.html
    +1

    I think LE tend to take the paper more seriously if it's composed by another LEO. I would check the SO's website and collect some e-mail addresses of the 'brass.' As a taxpayer, whether you advocate or practice open carry activism or not, it is in your best interest that LE know the laws before they create a situation that can cost the department lots of money.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
    Supporter of the CalGuns Foundation - http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/
    Supporter of the Madison Society - www.madison-society.org


    Don't Tread On Me.

  6. #6
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Orange County, California, USA
    Posts
    912

    Post imported post

    Thank you all for the positive responses. I will do my best to inform my local law enforcement offices of the memo from Sacramento regarding what is legal and what isn't. Frankly I am disappointed that even the sheriff's office here would present inaccurate information. I had always thought that officers not only had to know the law to enforce it, but not mis-interpret it. I understand they are allowed to lie to gather information but still... Misinformation is something different. I will try again this evening to speak to someone higher up and get a more accurate answer, or at least recognition of what the law does state.

    As I told the officer I spoke to on the phone, the absolute last thing I want is a negative interaction with an officer that does not know fully what law they are (or in such case, are not) enforcing properly.

    Also, I would like to extend an invitation to any Orange County or Inland Empire OCers to join my dad's group up at the range next month, the 3rd weekend in August I believe. We go to Lytle Creek Firing Line, which has recently undergone more rennovations.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

  7. #7
    Newbie cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,335

    Post imported post

    I would say don't rush into it. Read what is here and also get an understanding ofhow the laws work. Also know your other rights specifically the 4th Amendment.

    Go to Calguns.net 2nd Amendment section and you'll find cases where a couple of individuals are dealing with false arrests for "loaded in public" when in fact they were legal. This has not been the typical experience. It is in fact the exception and not the rule for those of us who have OCed.

    However, they weren't as prepared for a leo contact as I would have wished. One needs a recorder, and friendly witnesses. There are also some thoughts on waiting on unloaded OC (Ca style) until later in the year for legal reasons dealing with 2nd Amendment incorporation.

    What ever decision you make, be sure it is an informed one.

    Welcome!!!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •