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*DO YOU HAVE A BADGE*

Caption Jack

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Jul 10, 2008
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11
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Howdo LEOidentifyOC citizens ?Do bad guys onlycarrry concealed? How do you identify yourself? I prefer to carry concealed as open carryan invitation for some-one to make a grab for exposed fire-arm. If concealed, fire-armcan be your secret until you need it. OC not suitable at the mall in heavypopulated cities. Element of suprise is the key. I prefer OC during hunting season. JMOP , Captain Jack
 

nofoa

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
374
Location
Arlington, Washington, USA
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Honestly ask your self the last time you saw (or heard about) a bad guy walking down the road with a holstered gun on his hip. Criminals are total cowards, snakes that take away from others that which they desire. Sometimes it is material sometimes it is to make them feel better.

As there have been many threads about the subject, OC has it advantages.

Our badge is the fact that we OC.
 

bobernet

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
333
Location
Henderson, Nevada, USA
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How do LEO identify citizens in the bank for lawful purposes versus those there to rob? How do LEO identify guys walking through a park, versus guys looking to kidnap or rape? How do LEO identify people picking up their kids from school versus people looking to abuse children?

Obviously, there is no reason for a citizen engaging in lawful activities to somehow prove that to LEOs. Cops are primarily about investigating crimes and arresting offenders. Preemptive tactics are great when they don't trample the rights of citizens. This is not a police state.

Gun grabs are certainly a possibility, but given criminals' propensity to avoid conflict with armed citizens (and police) it's hardly much of a real concern.

Your "hidden" gun lets criminals know that you are statistically as likely to be armed as any other joe walking the street. Judging by the CCW statistics, that chance is less than 1%.

A concealed weapon is certainly better than not being armed at all, but there are many situations (I'd argue *most* situations on the street) where the bad guy is most definitely going to have the drop on you. Do you have the confidence in your skills to be able to draw from concealment and fire to stop a bad guy who has his finger on the trigger and his gun already pointed at you? Or his knife already at your throat? Deterrence seems a much better "tactic" to me.

The "element of surprise" is an offensive tactic. Unless your mission is that of an assassin, the defensive value of "surprise" is nearly zero. Remember, your goal as a citizen (hopefully) is to avoid being a victim, not to kill criminals. Anything you can do to make it clear that you are not an easy target increases your odds of being left alone. The best we can hope for is that the gun we carry never has to be drawn.
 

Jim675

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
1,023
Location
Bellevue, Washington, USA
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Welcome Caption Jack. As you may have noticed, we have some practice answering the why OC question. bobernet did a fine job here and there are MANY more excellant, well thought out posts else where on OCDO. Sit back and peruse a while.
We're for CC as well as OC (just like picking out what shoes to wear that day, none of my business what you decide). It's just that OC's better! :D

You may get read some frustration in a few responses. Try not to attack personally and *most* folks will respect your choices.
 

VAopencarry

Regular Member
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
2,151
Location
Berryville-ish, VA
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Element of Surpise? Does that mean when a bad guy has a gun pointed at your head you will be surpised your concealed firearm will do nothing for you?

If you do not wish to OC fine, that is your choice. If you want to come here and tell us how CC is a superior form of carry and OC is blah,blah,blah...please take it to another forum.
 

Theseus

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
964
Location
Lamma Island, HK
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Caption Jack wrote:
Howdo LEOidentifyOC citizens ?Do bad guys onlycarrry concealed? How do you identify yourself? I prefer to carry concealed as open carryan invitation for some-one to make a grab for exposed fire-arm. If concealed, fire-armcan be your secret until you need it. OC not suitable at the mall in heavypopulated cities. Element of suprise is the key. I prefer OC during hunting season. JMOP , Captain Jack

Captain Jack. . . I also welcome you to the forum, but have to suggest. . . DUE TO CCW BEING WHAT IT IS HERE IN CALIFORNIA EVEN IF YOU WANT ONE YOU ARE VERY UNLIKELY TO GET ONE. That is why I OC. I would rather save my time and money practicing to be quicker with my OC'd weapon.

But I have considered. . Maybe I won't mind having to bribe the LA County Sheriff by donating to his re-election campaign and then spending several hundreds of dollars and a few months of time to execise something that should be according to the US Constitution my right! That sounds like a great idea. . . and while I am at it I will just shut up and let the government have my 1st amendment rights to. . .
 

Dustin

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
1,723
Location
Lake Charles Area, Louisiana, USA
imported post

bobernet wrote:
How do LEO identify citizens in the bank for lawful purposes versus those there to rob? How do LEO identify guys walking through a park, versus guys looking to kidnap or rape? How do LEO identify people picking up their kids from school versus people looking to abuse children?

Obviously, there is no reason for a citizen engaging in lawful activities to somehow prove that to LEOs. Cops are primarily about investigating crimes and arresting offenders. Preemptive tactics are great when they don't trample the rights of citizens. This is not a police state.

Gun grabs are certainly a possibility, but given criminals' propensity to avoid conflict with armed citizens (and police) it's hardly much of a real concern.

Your "hidden" gun lets criminals know that you are statistically as likely to be armed as any other joe walking the street. Judging by the CCW statistics, that chance is less than 1%.

A concealed weapon is certainly better than not being armed at all, but there are many situations (I'd argue *most* situations on the street) where the bad guy is most definitely going to have the drop on you. Do you have the confidence in your skills to be able to draw from concealment and fire to stop a bad guy who has his finger on the trigger and his gun already pointed at you? Or his knife already at your throat? Deterrence seems a much better "tactic" to me.

The "element of surprise" is an offensive tactic. Unless your mission is that of an assassin, the defensive value of "surprise" is nearly zero. Remember, your goal as a citizen (hopefully) is to avoid being a victim, not to kill criminals. Anything you can do to make it clear that you are not an easy target increases your odds of being left alone. The best we can hope for is that the gun we carry never has to be drawn.



Wow, Bob. I'd say you just knocked that one right out of the ball park :cool:

Nice Job ;)
 

imperialism2024

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
3,047
Location
Catasauqua, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

bobernet wrote:
How do LEO identify citizens in the bank for lawful purposes versus those there to rob? How do LEO identify guys walking through a park, versus guys looking to kidnap or rape? How do LEO identify people picking up their kids from school versus people looking to abuse children?

Obviously, there is no reason for a citizen engaging in lawful activities to somehow prove that to LEOs. Cops are primarily about investigating crimes and arresting offenders. Preemptive tactics are great when they don't trample the rights of citizens. This is not a police state.

Gun grabs are certainly a possibility, but given criminals' propensity to avoid conflict with armed citizens (and police) it's hardly much of a real concern.

Your "hidden" gun lets criminals know that you are statistically as likely to be armed as any other joe walking the street. Judging by the CCW statistics, that chance is less than 1%.

A concealed weapon is certainly better than not being armed at all, but there are many situations (I'd argue *most* situations on the street) where the bad guy is most definitely going to have the drop on you. Do you have the confidence in your skills to be able to draw from concealment and fire to stop a bad guy who has his finger on the trigger and his gun already pointed at you? Or his knife already at your throat? Deterrence seems a much better "tactic" to me.

The "element of surprise" is an offensive tactic. Unless your mission is that of an assassin, the defensive value of "surprise" is nearly zero. Remember, your goal as a citizen (hopefully) is to avoid being a victim, not to kill criminals. Anything you can do to make it clear that you are not an easy target increases your odds of being left alone. The best we can hope for is that the gun we carry never has to be drawn.
I think that needs to be stickied somewhere. It pretty much blows the anti-OC argument(s) out of the water in a brilliantly complete yet succinct manner.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
imported post

VAopencarry wrote:
Element of Surpise? Does that mean when a bad guy has a gun pointed at your head you will be surpised your concealed firearm will do nothing for you?

If you do not wish to OC fine, that is your choice. If you want to come here and tell us how CC is a superior form of carry and OC is blah,blah,blah...please take it to another forum.
Yeah, you make a point, but a BG could still pull his piece before you can get yours out even if OC'd. I can see scenarios where the BG, CCing, of course, is behind you or lateral to you and considers youthe most potent threat so pulls his weapon. I think this is often missed in the CC v OC debate.And there is the fact that if he does so, he gets your gun as well as your wallet.
 

zoom6zoom

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2006
Messages
1,694
Location
Dale City, VA, Virginia, USA
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I prefer to carry concealed as open carry an invitation for some-one to make a grab for exposed fire-arm.
Oh, geez - not this old chestnut again. I don't think we've ever had anyone able to cite a verifiable incidence of this happening.
 

Aran

Banned
Joined
Jan 29, 2008
Messages
674
Location
Indiana, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Gunslinger wrote:
VAopencarry wrote:
Element of Surpise? Does that mean when a bad guy has a gun pointed at your head you will be surpised your concealed firearm will do nothing for you?

If you do not wish to OC fine, that is your choice. If you want to come here and tell us how CC is a superior form of carry and OC is blah,blah,blah...please take it to another forum.
Yeah, you make a point, but a BG could still pull his piece before you can get yours out even if OC'd. I can see scenarios where the BG, CCing, of course, is behind you or lateral to you and considers youthe most potent threat so pulls his weapon. I think this is often missed in the CC v OC debate.And there is the fact that if he does so, he gets your gun as well as your wallet.
If he was going to go after you either way, and you fail, he gets both regardless.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
imported post

VAopencarry wrote:
Element of Surpise? Does that mean when a bad guy has a gun pointed at your head you will be surpised your concealed firearm will do nothing for you?

I've never heard it said better on these forums! Can I use this? :D

Edit: the post by bobernet was clear, succinct, and right on the money. It should be placed somewhere where those new to the forum will see it, and hopefully decide not to perpetuate the popular fallacies any longer.
 

TheMrMitch

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
1,260
Location
Hodgenville, Kentucky, USA
imported post

Right to the point, I am.

Even as a noob myself, I find it strange another noob comes into a forum as this oneand commences to explain he"prefers conceal carry".:uhoh:
 

lukeshort

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
100
Location
, Oregon, USA
imported post

zoom6zoom wrote:
I prefer to carry concealed as open carry an invitation for some-one to make a grab for exposed fire-arm.
Oh, geez - not this old chestnut again. I don't think we've ever had anyone able to cite a verifiable incidence of this happening.

Now I've seen it on those reality cop shows on T.V. were officers have had their weapons wrestled away or the bad guy grabbed the weapon and held the officer at gun point, but not in the main stream media though.I believe these occasions to be rare and the fact that these police officers were dealing with a desperate individual to be some contributing factors. I can honestly say, I've never heard a story were someone snatched a weapon from an OCer and used it against them. I'm sure it has happened though, and with some supposedly well trained professionals it happens without a doubt.

OC vs. CC is justan argument in comfort in my opinion. If one wishes to carry a gun they better be sure, mature and wise in its use no matter how they wish to carry. That is a judgment call for the individual to work out with himself and environment. I really find no use for the argument one way or the other. Trying to understand either side of the argument is futile and non productive for anyone already opinionated. But I do know anti- gun individuals love the chance to beat down a right exposed.



 
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