Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Is an exposed grip open carry?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    Has anyone had any greater experience to say whether or not an exposed grip constitutes open carry? Any opinions? I prefer to carry in my Crossbreed IWB with the grip exposed.

    Another three bits of info:
    1) I'm visiting from GA with no non-resident VA carry/cw permit (I'll be OC only)
    2) I'm really happy to visit a state with unrestricted open carry.
    3) Original thread here when this trip was put into planning.


  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    Has anyone had any greater experience to say whether or not an exposed grip constitutes open carry? Any opinions? I prefer to carry in my Crossbreed IWB with the grip exposed.

    Another three bits of info:
    1) I'm visiting from GA with no non-resident VA carry/cw permit (I'll be OC only)
    2) I'm really happy to visit a state with unrestricted open carry.
    3) Original thread here when this trip was put into planning.


  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    smn wrote:
    Has anyone had any greater experience to say whether or not an exposed grip constitutes open carry? Any opinions? I prefer to carry in my Crossbreed IWB with the grip exposed.

    Another three bits of info:
    1) I'm visiting from GA with no non-resident VA carry/cw permit (I'll be OC only)
    2) I'm really happy to visit a state with unrestricted open carry.
    3) Original thread here when this trip was put into planning.
    As was posted in your original thread about visiting Virginia, a gun that is visible and recognizable as a gun is considered openly carried. Do not mind ProShooter - he had to go find a Michigan court case to support his assertion that "when he was a LEO" he "considered someting that was 60-70 % hidden" to be concealed, and you could be arrested and convicted here in Virginia. To my knowledge the only Virginia court case that you should be aware of is Slayton v. Commonwealth, 41, Va, App. 101, 582 S.E.2d 448 ( 2003), (found here http://www.virginia1774.org/Page1.html ). In that case the issue was that the defendant 1) had covered up his handgun with the dufflebag he had slung over his shoulder, and 2) he was breaking a number of laws not related to CC at the time.

    The trick, if there is one, it to make sure your shirt does not droop over the stocks, causing you to become CC instead of OC. Folks who normally IWB CC employ the "Virginia Tuck" - sticking the cover garment behind the stocks to make sure the stocks are not covered up - when entering a restaurant or club that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption.

    Now that you are here in Richmond/Midlothian, you need to pick a day for your OC dinner and then announce it. If you need help regarding location we can provide that, based on our own dining experiences.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  4. #4
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671

    Post imported post

    skidmark wrote:
    smn wrote:
    Has anyone had any greater experience to say whether or not an exposed grip constitutes open carry? Any opinions? I prefer to carry in my Crossbreed IWB with the grip exposed.

    Another three bits of info:
    1) I'm visiting from GA with no non-resident VA carry/cw permit (I'll be OC only)
    2) I'm really happy to visit a state with unrestricted open carry.
    3) Original thread here when this trip was put into planning.

    Do not mind ProShooter - he had to go find a Michigan court case to support his assertion that "when he was a LEO" he "considered someting that was 60-70 % hidden" to be concealed, and you could be arrested and convicted here in Virginia.
    skidmark

    ahh, and dont mind skidmark either, sometimes he actslike a bitter, disgruntled state employee with some kind of chip on his shoulder against law enforcement....

    What you need to know smn, is that in Virginia, "concealed" is defined in 2 different ways:

    - something that is "hidden from common observation"

    - somethingthat it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.


    Now, if you feel that your gun tucked into an IWB with the grips exposed does not meet either of those conditions, then dont worry about it. The "Virginia tuck" that ol' skiddy mentioned is merely a term coined by those who tuck their shirts in, in that manner to be in compliance with the law mandating open carry in places that serve alcohol on premises for consumption. It is not a recognized legal term in Virginia, much the way that doing a "rolling stop" at a stop sign does not excuse you from bringing your vehicle to a complete stop. LEO's generally dont make a big deal about the "Virginia tuck", but who's to say that someonewon't test the waters one day?

    Short answer is, just get yourself an inexpensive, true open carry holster for the times that you want to/need toOC and dont worry anymore.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Virginia USA, ,
    Posts
    1,688

    Post imported post

    If you OC with my IWB holster, what is visible is what is not covered by the holster. As in, you can see part of the action as well as the full grip. Where the action and frame start to be hidden by the holster is where my pants begin (the start of my holster is even with the start of my pants).

    If that is "concealed" then that means any holster covering any portion of your firearrm is concealing.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    My apologies for the dupes... my browser winow didn't show it submitted when I hit the submit button again.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Super Secret Squirrel Bunker, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    485

    Post imported post

    A correction to previous notes:

    Slayton is not the duffel bag case, that was Main vs. Commonwealth. Slayton is a different and more relevant set of facts:

    "Except for a "couple of inches" of the butt of the handgun protruding from Slayton's pocket, the rest of the weapon was completely hidden. And even those "couple of inches" were observed by Deputy Spencer only during the close-quarters encounter of a weapons frisk, not beforehand....Slayton disagrees, arguing that the firearm was not hidden from common observation because Deputy Spencer observed a portion of the butt protruding from Slayton's pocket and immediately knew it to be a handgun. Anyone else observing Slayton from that vantage point, he contends, might likewise have seen it.... Unlike a factfinder at trial, "reasonable law officers need not 'resolve every doubt about a suspect's guilt before probable cause is established.'" Id. (quoting Torchinsky v. Siwinski, 942 F.2d 257, 260 (4th Cir. 1991)). We reject, therefore, Slayton's assertion that the alleged insufficiency of the evidence for a conviction necessarily precludes a finding of probable cause. Because Deputy Spencer had probable cause to believe Slayton illegally possessed a concealed weapon, Spencer had authority both to arrest Slayton and to search him incident to that arrest. "

    This is relevant to "exposed butt(of the handgun folks, not droopy drawers) carry. Further, if you read it along with Fountain (from virginia1774) the violation of law *can* occur if someoneinadvertently or through the course of normal acts conceals.

    "Under this standard, Deputy Spencer had probable cause to believe Slayton was carrying a concealed weapon in violation of Code § 18.2-308. Except for a "couple of inches" of the butt of the handgun protruding from Slayton's pocket, the rest of the weapon was completely hidden. And even those "couple of inches" were observed by Deputy Spencer only during the close-quarters encounter of a weapons frisk, not beforehand. A reasonable probability exists, therefore, that Slayton's firearm —— both at the time of the pat-down and during the few moments immediately preceding it —— was "hidden from all except those with an unusual or exceptional opportunity" to observe it."

    You are free to carry a handgun in an IWB holster with the butt exposed, however, I would point out that you could be in violation of Virginia's Concealed handgun prohibition, just as the above referenced case shows. YMMV. You may not be hassled. Some police would certainly be immediately aware of the butt of a handgun, some may not, however. Remember that you can't just assume your handgun is not hidden from common observation...

    IMO, Slayton precludes "exposed butt(of the weapon) IWB" as open carry but as I said, YMMV.



  8. #8
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671

    Post imported post

    Mr. Y wrote:
    A correction to previous notes:

    Slayton is not the duffel bag case, that was Main vs. Commonwealth. Slayton is a different and more relevant set of facts:

    "Except for a "couple of inches" of the butt of the handgun protruding from Slayton's pocket, the rest of the weapon was completely hidden. And even those "couple of inches" were observed by Deputy Spencer only during the close-quarters encounter of a weapons frisk, not beforehand....Slayton disagrees, arguing that the firearm was not hidden from common observation because Deputy Spencer observed a portion of the butt protruding from Slayton's pocket and immediately knew it to be a handgun. Anyone else observing Slayton from that vantage point, he contends, might likewise have seen it.... Unlike a factfinder at trial, "reasonable law officers need not 'resolve every doubt about a suspect's guilt before probable cause is established.'" Id. (quoting Torchinsky v. Siwinski, 942 F.2d 257, 260 (4th Cir. 1991)). We reject, therefore, Slayton's assertion that the alleged insufficiency of the evidence for a conviction necessarily precludes a finding of probable cause. Because Deputy Spencer had probable cause to believe Slayton illegally possessed a concealed weapon, Spencer had authority both to arrest Slayton and to search him incident to that arrest. "

    This is relevant to "exposed butt(of the handgun folks, not droopy drawers) carry. Further, if you read it along with Fountain (from virginia1774) the violation of law *can* occur if someoneinadvertently or through the course of normal acts conceals.

    "Under this standard, Deputy Spencer had probable cause to believe Slayton was carrying a concealed weapon in violation of Code § 18.2-308. Except for a "couple of inches" of the butt of the handgun protruding from Slayton's pocket, the rest of the weapon was completely hidden. And even those "couple of inches" were observed by Deputy Spencer only during the close-quarters encounter of a weapons frisk, not beforehand. A reasonable probability exists, therefore, that Slayton's firearm —— both at the time of the pat-down and during the few moments immediately preceding it —— was "hidden from all except those with an unusual or exceptional opportunity" to observe it."

    You are free to carry a handgun in an IWB holster with the butt exposed, however, I would point out that you could be in violation of Virginia's Concealed handgun prohibition, just as the above referenced case shows. YMMV. You may not be hassled. Some police would certainly be immediately aware of the butt of a handgun, some may not, however. Remember that you can't just assume your handgun is not hidden from common observation...

    IMO, Slayton precludes "exposed butt(of the weapon) IWB" as open carry but as I said, YMMV.


    Very well stated, Mr. Y

    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Dallas, TX, ,
    Posts
    496

    Post imported post

    That's totally legal as long as the grip stays plainly visible. Exposed IWB carry is in fact nicknamed "Virginia carry" by many on this board.

  10. #10
    Regular Member ThunderRanch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Chesterfield, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    109

    Post imported post

    Just be sure the shirt doesn't come untucked and cover the grip and you're well within the OC realm!
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Near Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    392

    Post imported post

    My personal understanding of the law regarding OC is so long as it can be identifiable as a firearm.

    I've OC'd with an IWB before, and with some of the looks I got, I don't think anybody had any doubt what it was.

  12. #12
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671

    Post imported post

    Mods need to combine these threads if possible...
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    145

    Post imported post

    Well said and well put. Perhaps VCDL can find a sponsor introducing a bill specifically stating IWB carry is considered open carry. In GA there is state supreme court law which determined in a case that IWB carry was not concealed.

    On the Open Carry dinner, I'm still trying to persuade my wife and hosts on the event. My hosts' wife has a fear of guns. It is mostly irrational fear and she's not done much to think otherwise. I am in the mood for okra, tho.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Posts
    839

    Post imported post

    One thing to consider is that depending on how you wear your IWB holster, you may not be able to see much of the holster if any and it may look like you just stuck the gun in your pants. That's not technically illegal, but I know I would be nervous seeing someone openly carrying Mexican style since almost all LACs use holsters and most criminals do not.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Posts
    839

    Post imported post

    Triple tap thread post.

    Quick duck for cover!

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/13892.html

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Southeast, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    5,974

    Post imported post

    This still boggles my mind. As I have commented before:

    Judge: And how did you know he had a concealed firearm?

    LEO: I saw it.

    Judge: You saw the object and immediately recognized it as a firearm?

    LEO: Yes.

    Judge: How did you recognize it so easily?

    LEO: Well, the grip and back of the slide were sticking up out of his waistband and from the amount of the object that was open to common observation it was obviously a firearm.

    Judge: So then you proceeded to Terry stop him and arrest him for carrying a the concealed weapon that you plainly saw on his person that was was easily and quickly identified as a firearm?

    LEO: You betcha your honor. Keeping the peace and all that.


    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Super Secret Squirrel Bunker, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    485

    Post imported post

    You're missing the IDEAL point of the law. The LEO might recognize it, but a shop owner, mechanic, tax assessor, your wife, daughter, etc. may not recognize it.

    That's why the prohibition is against concealment from common observation. Not that I agree with it, but that's where we are.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    Mr. Y wrote:
    You're missing the IDEAL point of the law. The LEO might recognize it, but a shop owner, mechanic, tax assessor, your wife, daughter, etc. may not recognize it.

    That's why the prohibition is against concealment from common observation. Not that I agree with it, but that's where we are.
    Oh god, here comes the can of worms....

    "Is that a REAL gun?"

    "Oh, I didn't even notice you had that!"

    "Is that a taser?"

    "Is that a stun gun?" (well, it'd be sure to stun 'em! )

    "Common observation" misses a lot of things. I like sitting in restaurants and pointing things out to my friends about other people. The response I get most of the time? "Oh, you're right! I didn't even notice!"
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    Double tap! May as well put it to use....

    It should be noted that one of my friends is getting better at that game, and gets details sometimes before I do now.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •