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Thread: I need help with some questions

  1. #1
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    hi i was an armed guard for a little over a year. i also was a police science student for 2.5 years. now my problem is i dont feel safe with out my fire arm on me. i know about open carry and i do carry when i feel uneasy. but when i was an armed guard i did know that carrying in your car was considered concealed. so i called my supervisor and asked should i load up when i got to work he said no its ok to carry. so now today i called Milwaukee police department and asked that question to an officer he said um no know 1 can carry in there car or on foot except law enforcement concealed or open. i said are you sure? he replayed yes im a cop i know you cant. i said ok thanks for you help. lol so is it that big of a deal to carry when driving? i did when working and was pulled over a number of times the police never said anything. i was in uniform but that shouldn't matter i would really like it if someone could call me and i can tap there brain a little with other questions

    steve


  2. #2
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    Well, he's certainly wrong about open carry on foot.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Well, he's certainly wrong about open carry on foot.
    lol well i wish we could just educate the public and law enforcement

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    Call him back and educate him. Ask him to cite which law prohibits non-law enforcement people from carrying a gun. He'll come up empty-handed.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Wisconsin law allows open carry of a weapon, except in buildings leased or owned by the State or one of its agencies, and in establishments with a Class B liquor license or permit (basically any store authorized for end-user sale of alcohol, whether by-the-drink or packaged). Concealed in Wisconsin means "not in plain sight"; if you're carrying at 4:00 in your car with a center console,and the officer does not notice the gun until halfway through a minor traffic stop, congratulations, you've just concealed your weapon. Similarly, keeping it in the glove compartment or in a holster under your front seat is also "concealing" it. But, as long as an officer cannot miss the fact you are wearing a gun or have one nearby, you're openly carrying, and as long as he cannot articulateprobable cause to believe you are causing public alarm that is not excepted by Florida v J.L. or Terry v. Ohio, it's totally legal.

    Now, that being said, Wisconsin's police are not famous for their knowledge of and/or tolerance of . Their interest as policement is to reduce crime; if they feel that lying about open carry so you don't do it will lower their call rate, you better believe they'll do it. And if an officer thinks you're going to jail, he's usually right. The possibility of being (falsely) arrested in Milwaukee or GreenBayis very real; they might make up ssomething to haul you in and then find there's nothing to sustain habeas corpus, or they might try to charge you with "negligent handling" under 941.20 or twist 941.235 to say thatbus shelter you walked through was a "public building".

    To summarize, it is legal, with two exceptions,to OC in Wisconsin. The police are not well-educated of this fact, and most that do know don't like it, so if you carry be prepared for a less-than-friendly encounter.

    If you get someone who "knows the law" just because they're a cop, as you encountered, ask them to cite the applicable statute. It's a trick question; there is none.When asked, officersgenerally either backpedal or assert that they don't need to be able to quote chapter and verse to haul you in. If theychoose the second optionwithout being able to back it up in print, the conversation's over; "AmI being detained?" and "Am I free to go?" should be your only statements from that point. You are not going to be able to change the mind ofan officer who thinks proof by assertion is a valid argument. It's difficult even when the officer will listen to reason; when he's convinced he's right because he's right you can't get anywhere. You might be arrested, or the officer, having had his bluff called, might concede at that point.

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    While working as an armed guard you most certainly can carry a handgun in a vehicle:

    (from Wisconsin Department of Regulations and Licensing, Security Guard Section)


    Q. Can a loaded firearm be transported in a vehicle?
    A. Under certain circumstances. The firearm must be in plain view. “In plain view" means it is visible from ordinary observation to a person outside the vehicle. A firearm located in a glove compartment, in a briefcase, under a seat of a vehicle, or covered by the clothing of an occupant, is not "in plain view."

    I can't find the section at this time, but you must also be in your uniform while carrying in a vehicle.


    http://drl.wi.gov/prof/fire/pfaq.htm



  7. #7
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    pkbites wrote:
    While working as an armed guard you most certainly can carry a handgun in a vehicle:

    (from Wisconsin Department of Regulations and Licensing, Security Guard Section)


    Q. Can a loaded firearm be transported in a vehicle?
    A. Under certain circumstances. The firearm must be in plain view. “In plain view" means it is visible from ordinary observation to a person outside the vehicle. A firearm located in a glove compartment, in a briefcase, under a seat of a vehicle, or covered by the clothing of an occupant, is not "in plain view."

    I can't find the section at this time, but you must also be in your uniform while carrying in a vehicle.


    http://drl.wi.gov/prof/fire/pfaq.htm

    The exception for private security is in 167.31(4).
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Quoting a portion of 167.31(4):

    "EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to
    any of the following who, in the line of duty, place, possess, transport,
    load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat
    or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or
    within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:
    2. A member of the U.S. armed forces.
    3. A member of the national guard.
    4. A private security person who meets all of the following
    requirements:
    a. He or she holds either a private detective license issued
    under s. 440.26 (2) (a) 2. or a private security permit issued under
    s. 440.26 (5).
    b. He or she holds a certificate of proficiency to carry a firearm
    issued by the department of regulation and licensing.
    c. He or she is performing his or her assigned duties or responsibilities.
    d. He or she is wearing a uniform that clearly identifies him
    or her as a private security person.
    e. His or her firearm is in plain view, as defined by rule by the
    department of regulation and licensing."
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    And the relevant portion of the Department of Regulation and Licensing Administrative Code:

    RL 34.011 Conditions relating to transporting a
    loaded firearm in a vehicle. No owner or employee of an
    agency may transport a loaded firearm in a vehicle, unless all of
    the following apply:
    (1) The firearm is in plain view. In this section “in plain view”
    means it is visible from ordinary observation to a person outside
    the vehicle.
    Note: A firearm located in a glove compartment, in a briefcase, under a seat of a
    vehicle, or covered by the clothing of an occupant, is not “in plain view.”
    (2) If the firearm is a handgun, the owner or employee transports
    the firearm in a holster which is in plain view.
    (3) If the firearm is other than a handgun, the owner or
    employee transports the firearm in a device inside the vehicle
    which locks the firearm in position and prevents an unauthorized
    person from removing the firearm from the locking device and
    which is in plain view.
    (4) The owner or employee complies with the requirements in
    s. RL 34.01.

    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    do you think if would be better or safer (arrest) wise to renew my firearm permit? its expired now.

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    Of note...

    If you have a handgun "open carried" in a vehicle - ie in a holster secured to the dashboard...the only thing you're potentially "guilty" of violating is the DNR regulation - 167.31.

    Unless I've missed something, the max for this is a fine of "up to" $100 and this should not be grounds for arrest / seizure. This is considered an unlawful hunting citation...

    If I am wrong...please do correct me.
    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

  12. #12
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    steve7890 wrote:
    do you think if would be better or safer (arrest) wise to renew my firearm permit? its expired now.
    You're no longer employed as a private security guard?
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

  13. #13
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    no im not any more my private security person and firearms permits are expired and i dont work security any more do you think i should renew everything to avoid arrest if im pulled over?

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    You need to be licensed and working as a guard or private detective to get a firearm permit. And the permit is only good if you're carrying the gun while working. The best way to avoid getting arrested is to break no law. Chapter 167.31 is in serious need of revamping. I'm not sure how interested anyone could get the legislature in making changes, so undoubtedly it will take a court case. And we know how they can just muddle things up too.

    If you do call that police person back, I'd be very interested in knowing what they say when you push them to cite a law.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    now we got people saying you can carry in a car as long as the officer can see that your carrying and its ok. then we have its ok but you have to be in a uniform. so can i carry in a holster driving with out a uniform. if not can i carry in a car with no mag in the gun. i have a pick up truck could i get out of my truck open the back gate take a mag and slide it in with out chambering? i feel if i get out and pull a gun out load it chamber it in public people would freak out. but to break it down i just want to know how to carry in a car

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    It has to be unloaded and in a case. Period. Unloaded means no rounds in the cylinders of a revolver, and no loaded magazine inserted in a semi-auto. A loaded magazine that isn't attached (inserted) to the gun is okay. Muzzle loaders can have a ball and powder charge, but no cap on the nipple. If you're carrying a flintlock (and who isn't nowadays?) no powder in the flash pan. I guess they overlooked a matchlock!

    Some people advise that you'll "at most" get a 100 dollar fine if you keep the gun visible on the dashboard. Maybe, but good luck with that. If you happened to be stopped by a DNR warden, that might be all you'll get!
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Allow me to clarify....



    As you are no longer employed in security, there is no way you can legally carry a loaded weapon in a car at this time.

    The penalty is theoreticallypretty minimal if the gun is clearly visible (ie on the dash).

    The penalty is much more harsh if it could be considered "concealed". From what I've read in the past it's considered concealed if the cop can't see it while they're _approaching_ your car (ie "on the seat" is still concealed since they can't see it until they're right up to the window)

    The only way to really be "legal" is to keep the gun in the trunk and not holster/load it until you get where you're going. If you load and holster it while you're sitting in the car after arriving somewhere, you are at least briefly violating the CCW statute.


    - What da hay?

    Keep Calm and Carry On

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    ok let me throw this out there. what if the cop is walking up to your car and u already have both hands out your window and announce that i am armed. i mean your not hiding a weapon you told the officer that you have a gun.

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    steve7890 wrote:
    ok let me throught this out there. what if the cop is walking up to your car and u already have both hands out your window and announce that i am armed. i mean your not hiding a weapon you told the officer that you have a gun.
    If only it was that easy! Then we'd just all walk around with guns beneath T-shirts that say "I have a gun under this shirt!" The police, and probably the prosecutor, would say that if the weapon is concealed, it's concealed, even if everyone present knows it's there.

    I don't agree with "in the trunk" because I know of no legal basis in Wisconsin to require that a firearm be in the trunk and challenge anyone to substantiate that it's a requirement. Illinois, is another matter.
    A. Gold

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    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Then we'd just all walk around with guns beneath T-shirts that say "I have a gun under this shirt!"
    good point

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    steve7890 wrote:
    so can i carry in a holster driving with out a uniform.
    No.

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    ok so i have to get out of my truck walk to the back in public open tail gate and drop gun in holster out side of the truck. is this what every one on here is doing? if thats what i have to do i will.

  23. #23
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    Why open the tail gate? The gun can be in the cab with you. But, yes technically you should be outside of a vehicle when loading.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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    well i just want to say thank you to all that helped me today i greatly appreciate it. and you are all crushel to the survival of open carry

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