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Community Turns Out to Observe Open Carry Rally in Hastings, Michigan Thursday, July 24

SkipCoryell

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John,

If you read Skip's article,he stated that he believes OC has no tactical advantage. That response raises a red flag to me and some of the posters were questioning that statement which was fair to do. If you post on a forum, that post is subject to reviews and comments, that's what a forum is.

My best,

Brian
Brian,

Questions, skepticism and even criticism don't bother me. They are all merited in their place and time, even helpful tools in helping us to understand each other. But the message can be tainted if it's not delivered in a positive way. The person hearing the message has to believe that you have his best interest at heart or he will misconstrue what you're saying almost everytime. And that's not good communication, in fact is counterproductive to communication.

Some of you say you distrust me because I'm not totally sold on the tactical advantages of open carry so I may as well address that now.

For example, instead of saying "If you don't believe in the tactical advantages of open carry then why are you even here at this forum!"

You could try to understand my views by asking: "Please explain to me your views on open carry and tactics."

This is better because it doesn't make any judgements or assumptions. It makes me think that you value my thoughts and encourages an open and free discussion.

If you had asked me that question, I would have answered like this:

I suspect that open carry will deter most ordinary, common, garden-variety type criminals, (i.e., those without a death wish). I'm not convinced it will deter the lunatics, the crazies, the ones whacked out on drugs and alcohol. But nothing will prevent the whackos short of a bullet in the head.

That alone isn't a sufficient reason not to open carry. I'm a personal protection instructor, so I know that 90% of personal defense has nothing to do with your firearm. Your brain is your best defense. Like Colonel Hackworth said "Stay alert - Stay alive!" When I open carry I'm going to be extra alert just to make sure no one sneaks up behind me with a ball bat. That's not a problem since I'm usually quite alert anyways.

I think if all of us are going to get along and advance the cause, we need to be civil to each other and sensitive about how our comments affect the reader. Before you offer constructive criticism, stop to think: how will this be received?

Always offer a bit of praise first, and then the criticism. (Spoonful of sugar, Mary Poppins, etc) That way the one being questioned, distrusted, or corrected, will suspect that you have his best interest at heart instead of the other way around. Once you've achieved that, your criticism will be seen in a whole new light, a better light.

If open carry is to grow, it has to convert other gun owners who are not yet convinced. Make it easy for someone to change. Encourage them along. It's a process. If you give them a hard time, well, that's bad public relations. If you try to harshly pull a fence sitter onto your side, he'll pull back and end up as your enemy instead of your ally. People usually accept criticism if they believe you mean well.

Thanks for working so hard to defend the RKBA.

Skip
 

SkipCoryell

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I've just been told that my last posting was condescending and preaching down. Please understand that I didn't mean it that way. I have the best of intentions.

God bless.

Skip
 

warlockmatized

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I personal feel that EVERYONE involved took each others posts in the wrong way. It happens all the time on the internet. people type words with a smile on their face but yet the reader feels the words were typed while the writer was gritting his teeth and cursing. I for one use caps to emphasize words, where others believe that the capped word is meant as yelling.

I hold true to what i posted before. Skip please attend the Warren meet IF you can. I would still very much like to shake your hand and converse with.
 

SkipCoryell

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warlockmatized wrote:
I personal feel that EVERYONE involved took each others posts in the wrong way. It happens all the time on the internet. people type words with a smile on their face but yet the reader feels the words were typed while the writer was gritting his teeth and cursing. I for one use caps to emphasize words, where others believe that the capped word is meant as yelling.

I hold true to what i posted before. Skip please attend the Warren meet IF you can. I would still very much like to shake your hand and converse with.
Yes, you are right. Brian and I cleared it up after a few PMs back and forth. Next time I'll just call him right away. Brian, Doug and I will be working to organize another event soon. It will be a joint event sponsored by Open Carry and Ted Nugent United Sportsmen of America.

Skip
 

SkipCoryell

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Oh, I forgot to tell you that I can't make it to Warren. My company is sponsoring a Lethal Force Institute Class in Middleville that weekend. I'll be pleasantly swamped.

All the best to you!

Skip
 

BB62

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Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
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SkipCoryell wrote:
BB62 wrote:
SkipCoryell wrote:
... Problem is, now I have to rewrite the chapter titled "Concealed Carry Vs Open Carry" based on recent experiences...
I'm sorry if I missed it, but what changed your mind about OC?
Thank you for asking. In the past, my whole argument against open carry was that I believed MI wasn't ready for it...
Were there specific things that causedyour "conversion"?

I understand that you thought MI wasn't ready for it, but I'm very interested in knowing the specific things that made you "see the light".

I always chuckle when I use that phrase - it reminds me of the line in "The Blues Brothers". LOL

Thanks!
 

SkipCoryell

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Hamilton, Michigan, USA
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BB62 wrote:
SkipCoryell wrote:
BB62 wrote:
SkipCoryell wrote:
... Problem is, now I have to rewrite the chapter titled "Concealed Carry Vs Open Carry" based on recent experiences...
I'm sorry if I missed it, but what changed your mind about OC?
Thank you for asking. In the past, my whole argument against open carry was that I believed MI wasn't ready for it...
Were there specific things that causedyour "conversion"?

I understand that you thought MI wasn't ready for it, but I'm very interested in knowing the specific things that made you "see the light".

I always chuckle when I use that phrase - it reminds me of the line in "The Blues Brothers". LOL

Thanks!
Jake and Elmo! I love those guys.

Jake: The band... the band...
Reverend Cleophus James: DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT?
Jake: THE BAND!
Reverend Cleophus James: DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT?
Elwood: What light?
Reverend Cleophus James: HAVE YOU SEEEEN THE LIGHT?
Jake: YES! YES! JESUS H. TAP-DANCING CHRIST... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

Nothing more specific than what I already said. My experience goes a long way in what I believe.

Skip
 

BSAFR

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It's not a matter of open carry vs. concealed, it's a matter that it is your second amendment right to carry any way YOU CHOOSE to carry. I have known Skip since I started B-SAFR, he got onboard and Barry County hasn't been the same since. When I asked Skip to open carry with me in Hastings to send a message to the police chief Skip didn't hesitate and said yes. I knew by asking Skip that this would make it a whole new ball game as Skip does not do anything in a small way. Skip jumped in and the press release flew, Skip is an organizer and a doer, not just a talker. From there it is all history as everyone knows and that goes for the whole state of Michigan. Skip gets things done so in the end we all benefit, not many people can say that for themsleves.
 

Bronson

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Here's an article from the other side.

Bronson

http://www.statenews.com/index.php/article/2008/07/protest_by_gun_activists_sends_wrong_message

August 3, 2008 News

You’re sitting at Espresso Royale, enjoying a cappuccino and studying for a big exam. In walk 40 men with guns holstered to their sides. Do you fear for your safety and consider running out the door or ducking for cover? Or do you thank your lucky stars someone is exercising their Second Amendment right to bear arms?

A situation like this sounds unlikely — like a scene out of a movie — but it’s become reality for residents of Hastings. Groups of armed men have shown up at places like picnics in the park and Richie’s Koffee Shop, where they made a pit stop last Thursday before attending a pro-Second Amendment speech given by gun-toting organizer Skip Coryell. Coryell gave his speech with a .40-caliber semiautomatic handgun at his side.

The speech and public demonstration were promoted on the Web site OpenCarry.org, whose motto is, “A right unexercised is a right lost.”

The men, who belong to no particular group, say they are flexing their Second Amendment rights in a very public way to defy Hastings Police Department Chief Jerry Sarver, who they say wants to stifle their right to bear arms. Sarver denies such implications, saying he believes the men are looking for a reaction, some kind of interference, from law enforcement. That much is obvious.

It appears the men are more concerned with sparking a controversy and provoking a reaction from people than they are about their rights. They don’t give specific reasons for being so devoted to carrying their weapons openly in public places. They justify their actions by citing their constitutional rights alone, instead of providing information, like an increase in crime in the area, that would make them feel carrying a gun is necessary.

The presence of a man with a gun strapped to his side in a coffee shop isn’t only unusual — it’s frightening. Seeing anyone besides a police officer carrying a gun in public is a jarring experience and conjures up images of criminals and otherwise dangerous people.

Had a similar group shown up on MSU’s campus, there would have been cause for alarm and concern for the safety of the student body. That same outrage should resonate in a coffee shop, where patrons and staff are left feeling nervous and scared, unsure of what may happen next.

The group’s actions are childish and inappropriate in today’s world of school shootings and the heightened security that followed the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. It sends the wrong message to show up at random places with a gun. In the eyes of a child, it trivializes the responsibility of carrying a gun by making it look like a toy. Adults could surely assume these men are exactly the people who should not be allowed to own and carry guns.

While Michigan law allows people to carry guns in holsters, a concealed weapons permit is more practical if you’re actually looking to carry a gun for protection and not intimidation.

The group’s desire to protect their constitutional rights is hard to condemn but their method of bringing their cause to the forefront is shameful. Their right to bear arms shouldn’t come at the cost of others’ right to feel safe.

Published on Wednesday, July 30, 2008
 

SkipCoryell

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Thanks Bronson. I saw this several days ago and entered the below comment:

Skip
----------------
First, to answer Benjy Compson’s question on the legal use of deadly force. “The person must reasonably believe that he/she is in immediate danger of loss of life or serious bodily injury.”
You may not use deadly force to protect property, only to protect an innocent life.
Second, in answer to your question “Why carry a gun either openly or concealed?”
There are many answers to that question since people carry for many different reasons, and all legal carrying of a firearm is certainly okay and not something to be feared or ridiculed.
Last Thursday I carried openly to make a point. In that regard it was as much an expression of First Amendment rights as it was Second Amendment. I wanted to educate people in their civil rights and in their legal rights. Truth is, because we marched last Thursday, thousands more are aware of their civil rights. And that’s a good thing.
As far as scaring people, I’m certainly not willing to surrender the bill of rights because some people are afraid of its use. I don’t make decisions based solely on emotions. I blend my intellect with my feelings, but I always trust my intellect first.
Rather than surrender my civil rights, I think it’s best that we educate people, because ignorance will just continue to breed more irrational fear. Over 40 of us marched and no one died. No one was hurt. There were zero altercations. One of the waitresses at the Coffee Shop told the press she felt uneasy to see all of us with guns. But yet, at the end of the night, no one harmed her. That’s the message here. Honest, law-abiding citizens who carry guns for personal and family defense are not to be feared.
Thanks for allowing me to exercise my First Amendment rights.
God bless you all.
Skip Coryell
www.skipcoryell.com
 

BSAFR

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Let me rewrite that scare mongering letter. You’re sitting in a coffee shop with your 40 friends that are legally openly carrying their handguns. You’re unarmed though because you’re afraid of guns. In walks a man hell bent on getting his 15 minutes of fame by shooting up the place. He first draws down on you and your life flashes before you and you realize that the only way you have to defend yourself and hoping that the 40 armed men & women sitting nearby will save your life. Because these are men & women that care about the sanctity of life they pull their firearms and before the man has a chance to snuff out your life he is dropped in his tracks.
 

dougwg

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You know, I've been thinking.... the anti's want to threaten my well being by taking my means of defense.

I don't think MY means of defense will ever be used in defense of an anti.

If I were one of the 40, I would wait till I was sure the madman meant business first, like after he shot the anti. I wouldn't want to make any mistakes, you need to be sure you know.
 

Sailorwatson

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SkipCoryell wrote:
I've just been told that my last posting was condescending and preaching down. Please understand that I didn't mean it that way. I have the best of intentions.

God bless.

Skip
I thought they were well said. i enjoyed reading it. Thanks for your input.
 

dougwg

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Sailorwatson wrote:
SkipCoryell wrote:
I've just been told that my last posting was condescending and preaching down. Please understand that I didn't mean it that way. I have the best of intentions.

God bless.

Skip
I thought they were well said. i enjoyed reading it. Thanks for your input.
They had a bit of a misunderstanding, all is well and we need not givethat matter any more thought.
 

Pointman

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BSAFR wrote:
Let me rewrite that scare mongering letter.
You’re sitting in a coffee shop in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, nervously watching three well-dressed but scary menthat are legally openly carrying their handguns, plus their wives, enjoying coffee and pastries. Like the rest of the patrons, you’re unarmed because you’re afraid of guns. You hear the gentleman one table over is on the phone with 9-1-1, and was able to make the call without being shot. You decide you'll carefully call 9-1-1 also, because that's the proper way to defend yourself according to Sara Brady.

In walks a man hell bent on getting his 15 minutes of fame by shooting up the place. He first draws down on you and your life flashes before you. Thankfully, you've called 9-1-1 andthey're keeping youonthephone until the police arrive, like they're supposed to, so you tell them of the new development. The gunman opens fire, and you drop like a sack of potatoes before you get half the story out.

The three other men with guns are now legally allowed to unholster, since there is a known threat to their lives, and they point their guns at the guy who walked through the door, as their wives flip the table over and take cover behind it. The three men join their wives behind the table, watching other patrons who are frozen with fear get gunned down. The gunman doesn't see the six hiding behind the table, and therefore doesn't aim at them.

As the police arrive, the single gunman shoots himself in the head, and after looking around the three men re-holster. As police form a line outside the door the six people start helping the other patrons, telling them to stick their fingers in the bullet holes so they don't bleed to death. One of the six slowly opens the door with holster facing inside, staring at a line of police pointing their guns at the door, waiting to start a barrage of officer gunfire. The person tells the police the shooter is dead, about twelve ambulances are needed, and three citizens are legally armed with holstered weapons, but were not part of the conflict, including him. The officers tell him to get on the ground, now, and he states he's needed inside to help the survivors, and ignores the order.

The police call for ambulances and backup, waiting until backup arrives before going in, which is proper police procedure. The news crews arrive, covering the carnage. The three men are questioned by the police, who ask why they didn't shoot the gunman. They each reply that Wisconsin has no castle doctrine, lawsuits are abundant, and they didn't want to have to plead guilty to killing the gunman and rely on the self-defense justification in Milwaukee, because it's an anti-gun, anti-law-abiding-citizen city.

The news crews focus on "gun violence" and police power, and Governor Jim Doyle who is calling for tighter controls on all handguns "for the sake of public safety." The police department issues metals of valor to the responding officers and tightens their enforcement on citizens who legally own guns.
 
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