Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Your Gun Likely To Be Used Against You?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Virginiaplanter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    402

    Post imported post

    This week's court of appeals decisions has a case about an armed security guard who was attacked by two men for the purpose of getting his gun. He withstood three strikes from a baseball bat and still managed to use his gun to shoot one of the attackers.


    "While on duty at a government building, sixty-four-year-old James Crouch, an armed security guard for Henrico County, was attacked by an individual armed with a baseball bat. At trial, Crouch recalled being on the ground after the initial strike, looking up and seeing someone attacking him, but not seeing his attacker’s face. Crouch remembered being struck three times with the bat, at which time he managed to retrieve his revolver from his weapon belt and fire three rounds at the attacker, who fled. As a result of the attack, Crouch sustained a crushed right index finger, a facial fracture, severe neck pain, and head trauma, which caused vertigo, chronic instability, and balance disorder....

    Henrico Police Investigator Thomas Holsinger testified that, after responding to the scene of the attack, he received information that a patient was being treated for a gunshot wound at a nearby hospital. Holsinger interviewed the patient, Jacquan Cotman (Goode’s codefendant), at the hospital. Cotman admitted his involvement in the attack on Crouch, explaining that he wanted Crouch’s gun, but denied hitting Crouch with a baseball bat. Cotman claimed Goode struck Crouch with Cotman’s bat while Cotman “went for the gun.” Failing in his attempt to take the gun from Crouch, Cotman ran. Cotman then realized about fifteen minutes later that he had been shot in the arm. He also indicated to Holsinger that it was Goode’s plan for the two of them to attack the security guard.

    Holsinger subsequently questioned Goode. According to Goode, it was Cotman who planned the attack for the purpose of taking Crouch’s gun. The plan was for Cotman to hit Crouch while Goode grabbed the gun. As agreed the previous day, the two met at a gas station near the government building and hid behind bushes located beside of the building while waiting on Crouch to appear. They both wore bandanas across their faces; Cotman was armed with the baseball bat, and Goode possessed a steel bar, which he was supposed to use in the attack. Holsinger described Goode’s weapon, which was recovered during the investigation, as a “dumb bell” bar used to attach weights for lifting."

    Myth Busted


    Goode v. Commonwealth, __ Va. App. __ S.E.2d__ (2008)

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    Bringa bat to a gunfight: epic fail.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    Bringa bat to a gunfight: epic fail.
    sixty-four-year-old

    recalled being on the ground after the initial strike

    remembered being struck three times with the bat

    at which time he managed to retrieve his revolver from his weapon belt and fire three rounds at the attacker, who fled

    How's that old saying go? Never mess with an old man with a gun; he may just shoot you. Least I thinks that's how it goes.

    Prayers and good wishes for a full and complete recovery by Mr. Crouch. I'll buy him a beer if I ever run into him.

    As for Messrs. Cotman and Goode, well, let's just say my momma was wrong when she told me to never say bad things about people. I'm pretty sure that the word has gotten around in population that these two maroons could not take down a sixty-four year old. That should open them up for fun times - imagine being punked by the punks.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    199

    Post imported post

    Good going Mr Crouch!

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Marysville, Washington, USA
    Posts
    204

    Post imported post

    Too bad the process of natural selection didint work a little better in the sucurity guards favor.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Marysville, Washington, USA
    Posts
    204

    Post imported post

    Too bad the process of natural selection didint work a little better in the sucurity guards favor.

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580

    Post imported post

    I remember when that happened.
    That was a very determined attack....and stupid. Henrico Security are not just any security guards. The county started using their own Security to free up Sworn Officers. The insurance is cheaper and the equipment isn't quite as extensive as the PD....but they are very well trained.

    Really stupid!

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lorton, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    77

    Post imported post

    skidmark wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Bringa bat to a gunfight: epic fail.
    sixty-four-year-old

    recalled being on the ground after the initial strike

    remembered being struck three times with the bat

    at which time he managed to retrieve his revolver from his weapon belt and fire three rounds at the attacker, who fled

    How's that old saying go? Never mess with an old man with a gun; he may just shoot you. Least I thinks that's how it goes.

    Prayers and good wishes for a full and complete recovery by Mr. Crouch. I'll buy him a beer if I ever run into him.

    As for Messrs. Cotman and Goode, well, let's just say my momma was wrong when she told me to never say bad things about people. I'm pretty sure that the word has gotten around in population that these two maroons could not take down a sixty-four year old. That should open them up for fun times - imagine being punked by the punks.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    I think you are mixing to sayings. Never mess with a man with a gun, he might shoot you. The other one goes; Never fight an old man, if he is too old to fight he will just kill you.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,623

    Post imported post

    Lesson to be learned here!

    The adult deficient delinquents violated the 1st rule of a gun fight.

    The security officer did not.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    Never bring a !gun to a gunfight?

    (!{something} = "not {something}")
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    I'm not sure of the myth that was busted?

    Perhaps that it is likely your gun will be used against you?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,623

    Post imported post

    AbNo wrote:
    Never bring a !gun to a gunfight?

    (!{something} = "not {something}")
    Rule #1 for gun fights: Have a gun!

    The bad guys stupidly (that's a good thing) were under prepared for a gun fight.

    The security officer was behind the curve but had a handgun and was able to recover enough to deploy it effectively. (that's a good thing)

    BTW - My rule #2 for gun fights: Never stand in front of the other guy's gun!

    Hope that the officer recovers quickly and completely.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    Grapeshot wrote:
    The bad guys stupidly (that's a good thing) were under prepared for a gun fight.
    True, but knowing how to get a gun when you don't have one but need it is a useful skill, ask the French Resistance.

    Which brings us to another rule: a gun is not a magic talisman that will protect you. Anyone who successfully sneaks up behind you with a baseball bat gets to keep your gun. Pay attention. And bring friends if you can.




  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,623

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    Anyone who successfully sneaks up behind you with a baseball bat gets to keep your gun.
    Except in this case it did not work out that way - fate/luck while not dependable can be a great ally.

    That said, I do understand you.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,964

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    The bad guys stupidly (that's a good thing) were under prepared for a gun fight.
    True, but knowing how to get a gun when you don't have one but need it is a useful skill, ask the French Resistance.

    Which brings us to another rule: a gun is not a magic talisman that will protect you. Anyone who successfully sneaks up behind you with a baseball bat gets to keep your gun. Pay attention. And bring friends if you can.


    Tomahawk,

    This is a good point. When debating the merits of OC v. CC on other gun websites, this incident will be used in the OC makes you a target argument.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,623

    Post imported post

    Thundar wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    True, but knowing how to get a gun when you don't have one but need it is a useful skill, ask the French Resistance.

    Which brings us to another rule: a gun is not a magic talisman that will protect you. Anyone who successfully sneaks up behind you with a baseball bat gets to keep your gun. Pay attention. And bring friends if you can.
    Tomahawk,

    This is a good point. When debating the merits of OC v. CC on other gun websites, this incident will be used in the OC makes you a target argument.
    Not applicable any more than every attempt by a BG to acquire a LEO's weapon is a valid point against OC by private citizens.

    Let us not forget that one of the admonitions is not that OCing will cause/allow your weapon to be taken/used against you. This did not occur here.

    Insofar as being a target, are we not all potential targets? The value of advertised "DON'T TREAD ON ME" still stand tall IMHO.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Washington County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    26

    Post imported post

    Thundar wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    The bad guys stupidly (that's a good thing) were under prepared for a gun fight.
    True, but knowing how to get a gun when you don't have one but need it is a useful skill, ask the French Resistance.

    Which brings us to another rule: a gun is not a magic talisman that will protect you. Anyone who successfully sneaks up behind you with a baseball bat gets to keep your gun. Pay attention. And bring friends if you can.


    Tomahawk,

    This is a good point. When debating the merits of OC v. CC on other gun websites, this incident will be used in the OC makes you a target argument.
    I'm sure this will be used by those against OC but what needs to be remembered here is that this guy was targeted because of his job. He was at the same place day in day out. How many of us keep such a routine that we could be targeted in this manner?

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    Thundar wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    The bad guys stupidly (that's a good thing) were under prepared for a gun fight.
    True, but knowing how to get a gun when you don't have one but need it is a useful skill, ask the French Resistance.

    Which brings us to another rule: a gun is not a magic talisman that will protect you. Anyone who successfully sneaks up behind you with a baseball bat gets to keep your gun. Pay attention. And bring friends if you can.


    Tomahawk,

    This is a good point. When debating the merits of OC v. CC on other gun websites, this incident will be used in the OC makes you a target argument.
    Possibly, but uniformed policemen are subject to the same danger, and they don't stop OC'ing.

    In any case, we do ourselves no favor by soft-padding the realities of carrying, whether concealed or open. Liberty is always accompanied with risk, and risk requires rational thinking and responsible action to counter. Failure o be completely honest with ourselves will result in being caught off-guard in arguments with antis and others.

    It has always irritated me when someone says something like "CC'ers do not commit crimes", or "OC'rs do not get their guns stolen". It's pretty much a mathemetical certainty that as more people carry, someday, somewhere, a CC'r will commit murder, and some OC'r will have his gun stolen. It won't happen often, but to say these things can never happen is an argument that won't hold.

    The security guard in the OP was fortunate his attackers did not get the best of him. Let's analyze it. They bad guys patterned him and were counting on his routine, and this routine made him a target. They were unable to sneak up and hit him over the head without him fighting back. Was this because he was alert or was he just lucky to spot them out the corner of his eye? We don't know. We do know that he was tough enough to fight back, and that in this case OC'ing was a positive thing.

    For those of us who do not follow a night watchman-style routine, I think it's less likely we would be targeted. In order to target me, you would have to decide on the spot that you will walk over to me and attack me this instant before I walk away. I think most people would want to think about it for a few minutes, and go home to get a baseball bat first. But there are always a few brave bad guys out there who are stupid enough to try anything, and you got to look out for those. Maybe I'm wrong?

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,623

    Post imported post

    Tomahawk wrote:
    Maybe I'm wrong?
    You may be right!

    Actually well enough thought out and reasonable.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •