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Thread: Masked man shot

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    This was posted on concealedcarryforum.com

    What really caught my attention is that the BG ran 400 yards away before he collapsed. They found a gunthe BG had. WHAT if he did not run, but continued theattacked?.... We do need the right gun for SD. Just because someone is shot does not mean the fight is over. Shot placement is important, but onecan't choose what they want to hit when they fire in SD.


    Manheim early today.

    One suspect, a 19-year-old Lancaster city man, was shot in the chest and died hours later at a local hospital.

    The other fled on foot — without any loot — and is still at large.

    Police did not identify any of the men.

    The botched holdup occurred just after 5 this morning when two masked men dressed in black followed the operations manager of Power Pro Battery Company into his office at 210 S. Penn St., police said.


    Knowing he was about to be robbed, the manager pulled out his own handgun, turned and fired twice, hitting one of the suspects in the wrist and chest just inside the front door of the building, police said.

    The worker, whose name has not yet been released by police, then called his boss, John Roads. Related Topics
    shooting (388) crime (2) attempted robbery (2)


    "John, they tried to rob me," he said. "I shot somebody."

    Both suspects fled east on foot, but the wounded robber collapsed about 400 yards away on West Stiegel Street, bleeding profusely from his chest.

    Manheim Borough Police received word at 10:30 a.m. that the wounded robbery suspect had died. They did not release his name.

    Police found a loaded TEC-9 semi-automatic handgun — a weapon that is rare yet increasing in popularity among criminals — nearby.

    They also found baseball caps and a bandana, apparently worn by the two suspects.

    Police were questioning the Power Pro Battery employee, whom they labeled a victim, this morning. They were also interviewing several other workers there.

    "The victim has indicated to us that he acted in self-defense," Manheim Borough Police Chief Barry Weidman said.

    "At this point it appears to be a robbery gone bad. We have no indication that it is any more than an attempted robbery."

    Police marked off numerous pieces of evidence along the street early this morning. The southern end of Manheim is home to several businesses and several homes, as well as an elementary school, H.C. Burgard.

    Bill Butler, 41, a resident of the 200 block of West Stiegel Street near the battery firm, said he was getting ready for work when he heard two gunshots. He looked out his guest-room window and saw two darkly dressed men running.

    "I saw these two guys running about 20 feet apart," said Butler. "They were both dressed in black. One guy was behind the other, and he was going slower, and he was saying, 'Help me, he shot me.'"

    Butler dialed 911.

    Medical crews were dispatched to West Stiegel and Cherry streets at 5:25 a.m. Butler, a former Army medic who worked on an ambulance crew in West Virginia for 12 years, walked outside to help the wounded man.

    "He had a sucking chest wound," said Butler.

    Butler rode along with the Manheim Ambulance crew to Lancaster General Hospital. He said he held the wounded man's gloves over his wounds.

    "He was conscious but fading. He said, 'I can't breathe,' and at one point he asked for his mother," said Butler. "It's something I've never seen before around here. I felt like I was back in the ambulance service."

    Butler said the second robber fled north, through a brushy area between a building and parked trailers along the north side of West Stiegel Street.

    Police launched a canine search but had not found the second suspect as of late this morning.

    Roads said his worker, who was being questioned by borough police, had a license to carry the weapon. Police confirmed that.

    Roads said the suspects were likely looking for cash and lying in wait for the operations manager to show up for work.

    The company employs 14 people, including a team of drivers who carry cash to local junkyards to buy batteries. The firm reconditions the batteries for resale. Roads said employees for the firm have been robbed at least five times in its 10 years of existence.

    The operations manager arrived for work shortly after 5 a.m. and parked his navy blue Chevrolet Avalanche along West Stiegel Street about 50 yards from Power Pro Battery.

    Roads said the worker, sensing he was about to be robbed, intentionally left the business security system on so that it would trigger an alarm when the robbers entered. It did, and police were dispatched.

    Roads added that there are surveillance cameras inside and outside the business, and that authorities are reviewing tapes.



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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    About time the true victims in these cases gets labeled as such......it would be interesting to know what caliber the handgun was......whether it was FMJ or HP ammo, etc......

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    There's another news article with more information:

    http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/224858

    It just says it was a small-caliber handgun he had in his pocket.

    There's a couple of great quotes from the business owner, Roads:


    "(The manager) had an angel in his pocket," Roads said, "and I can only hope that I would have been as lucky and as fortunate had it been me."
    and


    Roads said he has learned important lessons from the latest incident.

    "A: You can never be too careful," Roads said. "And B: How would you like to live somewhere where you have no rights? The system works, we believe in the system, and thank God for our system."
    Yes. Yes the system can work.

    ...But only where allowed by law ...
    ...Orygunner...

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    Butler rode along with the Manheim Ambulance crew to Lancaster General Hospital. He said he held the wounded man's gloves over his wounds.

    "He was conscious but fading. He said, 'I can't breathe,' and at one point he asked for his mother," said Butler. "It's something I've never seen before around here. I felt like I was back in the ambulance service."
    I know most of us here like to act all macho and stuff, but what if you shot someone, stopped thethreat,and had to deal with something like this. I think it'd have a huge impact on anyone listening to the dyingthug you just shot asking for their mother.

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    MetalChris wrote:
    Alwayspacking wrote:
    "He was conscious but fading. He said, 'I can't breathe,' and at one point he asked for his mother,"
    think it'd have a huge impact on anyone listening to the dyingthug you just shot asking for their mother.
    Yes it does reminds me of what whiney little pukes these wanna be tough guys are. Why did he not think of his mom BEFORE he started sticking guns in peoples faces. Even in death the maggot wants his momma to get him out of the hole he dug for himself, not one moments thought of the pain and suffering he has caused her. At least now he will not be able to continue to hurt her by his actions. Yes, watching any one die has a huge impact on you. It will never leave you ever but you do come to terms with what you need to do and learn to place responcibility where it belongs. Makes me sick that even in death these maggots caused others to suffer because of their selfish self centered actions. Why can't they just shoot themselves and not make someone else do the dirty work

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    MetalChris wrote:
    Alwayspacking wrote:
    Butler rode along with the Manheim Ambulance crew to Lancaster General Hospital. He said he held the wounded man's gloves over his wounds.

    "He was conscious but fading. He said, 'I can't breathe,' and at one point he asked for his mother," said Butler. "It's something I've never seen before around here. I felt like I was back in the ambulance service."
    I know most of us here like to act all macho and stuff, but what if you shot someone, stopped thethreat,and had to deal with something like this. I think it'd have a huge impact on anyone listening to the dyingthug you just shot asking for their mother.
    I'd say it would depend on the circumstances in the shooting. If you felt fully justified, then I doubt you'd have a problem with it. If you had second thoughts ("Maybe the case of beer wasn't that important..."), I can see a good deal of guilt after the shoot while watching the BG die. But if you see the BG laying there with a gun nearby that he was holding, and you can observe the lack of holes in your body, it would probably take a good deal of self-control to not take another shot or two to stop the whining.

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    MetalChris wrote:
    Alwayspacking wrote:
    Butler rode along with the Manheim Ambulance crew to Lancaster General Hospital. He said he held the wounded man's gloves over his wounds.

    "He was conscious but fading. He said, 'I can't breathe,' and at one point he asked for his mother," said Butler. "It's something I've never seen before around here. I felt like I was back in the ambulance service."
    I know most of us here like to act all macho and stuff, but what if you shot someone, stopped thethreat,and had to deal with something like this. I think it'd have a huge impact on anyone listening to the dyingthug you just shot asking for their mother.
    "It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have. " Will Munny, "Unforgiven"

    It certainly would have an impact. I agree with Imperialism that how great the impact is would depend on the specifics of the situation. If I did not believe that it was moral to kill another human being under certain circumstances, I wouldn't carry a gun. If I didn't think I could deal with having justifiably killed another human being, I wouldn't carry a gun. It took me quite a while to make the decision to carry a firearm during which time I examined these issues within myself and only when I was sure within my own heart and mind did I start to carry.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    LongRider wrote:
    MetalChris wrote:
    Alwayspacking wrote:
    "He was conscious but fading. He said, 'I can't breathe,' and at one point he asked for his mother,"
    think it'd have a huge impact on anyone listening to the dyingthug you just shot asking for their mother.
    Yes it does reminds me of what whiney little pukes these wanna be tough guys are. Why did he not think of his mom BEFORE he started sticking guns in peoples faces. Even in death the maggot wants his momma to get him out of the hole he dug for himself, not one moments thought of the pain and suffering he has caused her. At least now he will not be able to continue to hurt her by his actions. Yes, watching any one die has a huge impact on you. It will never leave you ever but you do come to terms with what you need to do and learn to place responcibility where it belongs. Makes me sick that even in death these maggots caused others to suffer because of their selfish self centered actions. Why can't they just shoot themselves and not make someone else do the dirty work
    Mmmhmm, lets see you talk all tough like that after you've inflicted a mortal sucking chest wound on another human being. You're tough!

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    Pointman wrote:
    I certainly don't want to sound overly harsh, but if two thugs in black masks try to rob me at gunpoint, most likely in the dark, with a mean looking gun that might go full-auto, I'm not feeling sorry for them when they cry like a baby.
    There's no mutual exclusion between feeling pity for the dying man and understanding that it was a fate he made for himself. Pity is not forgiveness -- I feel very sorry for the guy in this story, but I also know that he only got what he deserved and should have expected.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    "He had a sucking chest wound,"
    God bless Tension Pneumothorax being given to the bad guy.

    As far as what a determined criminal can do after being hit multiple times check out this link - http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf(pics may be graphic for some folks)
    Quote Originally Posted by Open Carry.org Member View Post
    I really disgree with this one! That means that we can have any yahoo running around with a gun with out the proper training. This really scares the hell out of me. Just my two-cents!
    Quote Originally Posted by KansasMustang View Post
    Joe Schmedlap out there with a loaded weapon thinking he's going to deter crime and he's not even trained to fire his weapon safely just kinda makes my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    This was posted on concealedcarryforum.com

    What really caught my attention is that the BG ran 400 yards away before he collapsed. They found a gunthe BG had. WHAT if he did not run, but continued theattacked?.... We do need the right gun for SD. Just because someone is shot does not mean the fight is over. Shot placement is important, but onecan't choose what they want to hit when they fire in SD.
    There is a great story of a LEO doing a bust on a drug house. The suspect ran out shooting, he was than hit with a 1oz slug from a 12ga. in historso. In the front, out the back.He than kept running to his car, and managed to escape.

    His lawyer arranged for the man to turn himself in a week later. Never went to a hospital.

    Shot placement will always trump caliber. And if he is still fighting with you after 2, add 2 more, so forth and so on.

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    the victum of the hold up shot the bg with a small cal. hand gun(mouse gun). the bg runs for the hills, probaly thinking this was a real bad idea and darn this hurts and then dies i wonder what kind of drugs this bg was on.

    a mouse gun my not be the best to carry but at lest it is better than nothing, this mouse had a meen bite

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    David.Car wrote:
    Alwayspacking wrote:
    This was posted on concealedcarryforum.com

    What really caught my attention is that the BG ran 400 yards away before he collapsed. They found a gunthe BG had. WHAT if he did not run, but continued theattacked?.... We do need the right gun for SD. Just because someone is shot does not mean the fight is over. Shot placement is important, but onecan't choose what they want to hit when they fire in SD.
    There is a great story of a LEO doing a bust on a drug house. The suspect ran out shooting, he was than hit with a 1oz slug from a 12ga. in historso. In the front, out the back.He than kept running to his car, and managed to escape.

    His lawyer arranged for the man to turn himself in a week later. Never went to a hospital.

    Shot placement will always trump caliber. And if he is still fighting with you after 2, add 2 more, so forth and so on.
    That's what happens when you use an inferior caliber. If the LEO had used his .40 like he was supposed to that could not have happened. :what: Might as well have been using a .25.

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    Stealth Potato wrote:
    Pointman wrote:
    I certainly don't want to sound overly harsh, but if two thugs in black masks try to rob me at gunpoint, most likely in the dark, with a mean looking gun that might go full-auto, I'm not feeling sorry for them when they cry like a baby.
    There's no mutual exclusion between feeling pity for the dying man and understanding that it was a fate he made for himself. Pity is not forgiveness -- I feel very sorry for the guy in this story, but I also know that he only got what he deserved and should have expected.
    And that's exactly where I'm coming from. It's a pity that someone raised this guy to be the scum that he is. It's a pity that somebody didn't whop the tar out of him the first time he stole something, or hurt someone just for fun. If he had had a father that would have made him toe the line, he may not have turned out this way.

    But, he did turn out to be a dangerous human being with no respect for anyone but himself. I would have no remorse for shooting down a BG like that.

    And yes, I've seen and treated sucking chest wounds from GS's in the E.R. That wouldn'tgive me much cause for remorse or concern.

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    PT111 wrote:
    That's what happens when you use an inferior caliber. If the LEO had used his .40 like he was supposed to that could not have happened. :what: Might as well have been using a .25.
    you might want to look at some terminal ballistics and relate them to that statement. My observation and experience varies with it dramaticly.

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    Stopping a threat I believe is a combination between the type of gun and caliber you use as well as shot placement. A lot of people here seem to believe in a one-size-fits-all approach and I disagree and I am sure reputable members of the military also disagree. If an enemy is attacking you, you must defeat him using the appropriate tactics whatever those may be. For instance, suppose someone is breaking into my house and by the time I realize it, they are already inside. While 3" magnum 00 buckshot shells from my shotgun would be superior in terms of damage to the opponent, it may be advisable to instead grab the 9mm handgun because it is smaller and semi-automatic making it easier to maneuver around corners and allows for faster firing. Let's say that instead the criminal is already within 5 feet of me. It may make more sense not to use a gun period but instead grab my 5.5" fixed blade knife because at such close range, the knife is less likely to be grabbed away and less actions are required to inflict a wound and the wound or wounds are highly likely to be far more disabling and deadly. Sometimes bigger is not always better. It really just depends on the nature of the situation to determine what tactics you need to use. Regardless of what caliber, most attackers will actually stop before a shot is even fired and the few who don't are likely to stop once they have one or more holes in them. It is the exception and not the rule that criminals will just keep on coming toward you even after you have fired multiple rounds into them. It is good to be prepared for the unusual type of dangerous encounter but also important to understand what is most likely to take place.



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    I actually wish they wouldn't label people like this guy a "victim". It seems to me that he won the gunfight, potentially saving his life. Doesn't sound like a victim to me...

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    Stealth Potato wrote:
    Pointman wrote:
    I certainly don't want to sound overly harsh, but if two thugs in black masks try to rob me at gunpoint, most likely in the dark, with a mean looking gun that might go full-auto, I'm not feeling sorry for them when they cry like a baby.
    There's no mutual exclusion between feeling pity for the dying man and understanding that it was a fate he made for himself. Pity is not forgiveness -- I feel very sorry for the guy in this story, but I also know that he only got what he deserved and should have expected.
    And that's exactly where I'm coming from. It's a pity that someone raised this guy to be the scum that he is. It's a pity that somebody didn't whop the tar out of him the first time he stole something, or hurt someone just for fun. If he had had a father that would have made him toe the line, he may not have turned out this way.

    But, he did turn out to be a dangerous human being with no respect for anyone but himself. I would have no remorse for shooting down a BG like that.

    And yes, I've seen and treated sucking chest wounds from GS's in the E.R. That wouldn'tgive me much cause for remorse or concern.
    These thoughts are exactly how I feel about a BG being shot. I am a deep thinker, and I am a people watcher. Sometimes when I observe people going about their daily business let’s say a guy working in landscaping, a woman walking her dog, a teenager walking from school, I think about how in this world there are people that will harm these people for no reason what-so-ever, when realizing how true this is, and how people don’t see the need for protection really hurts me inside because these people who may be very kind people, and someone would do them harm and not care about them or their love ones in the least bit.

    People like this guy who got shot would, kill, maim, or hurt anyone for a dollar bill, or a leather coat, or anything simple like that. Why would I feel sorry for these BG’s if they are having a slow death from being shot my me or a person that did what they had to do to stay alive. They would kill you, me OR ANYONE in a worst way if they could. They (BG) chose this lifestyle along with all the dangers that comes with it. WE don’t choose to live this thug life, or a life of crime because we know it does not pay. He knew the risk and it was a gamble with his life and was willing to take this risk on his life, and I don’t feel sorry for him at all. Now going back to the innocent people I mentioned earlier. If they are killed by one of these BG. I hate to see that, and it hurts my heart to see it. I could go on and on about this, but it just bothers me so much, how this world is so evil.

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    protector84 wrote:
    Stopping a threat I believe is a combination between the type of gun and caliber you use as well as shot placement. A lot of people here seem to believe in a one-size-fits-all approach and I disagree and I am sure reputable members of the military also disagree. If an enemy is attacking you, you must defeat him using the appropriate tactics whatever those may be. For instance, suppose someone is breaking into my house and by the time I realize it, they are already inside. While 3" magnum 00 buckshot shells from my shotgun would be superior in terms of damage to the opponent, it may be advisable to instead grab the 9mm handgun because it is smaller and semi-automatic making it easier to maneuver around corners and allows for faster firing. Let's say that instead the criminal is already within 5 feet of me. It may make more sense not to use a gun period but instead grab my 5.5" fixed blade knife because at such close range, the knife is less likely to be grabbed away and less actions are required to inflict a wound and the wound or wounds are highly likely to be far more disabling and deadly. Sometimes bigger is not always better. It really just depends on the nature of the situation to determine what tactics you need to use. Regardless of what caliber, most attackers will actually stop before a shot is even fired and the few who don't are likely to stop once they have one or more holes in them. It is the exception and not the rule that criminals will just keep on coming toward you even after you have fired multiple rounds into them. It is good to be prepared for the unusual type of dangerous encounter but also important to understand what is most likely to take place.

    Yes shot placement is key to effectively ending a attack quickly. A 12 gage slug and keeps on running (WOW) is prime example. I use to shot these slug from my shotgun, and I was like these “things are deadly.”

    The reason why most people go for the bigger gun is that. A bigger round, and a faster round is more apt to hit that vital area that is key to ending the attack. The bigger round could at the least snip the heart, or spine. The faster round is more apt to doing the same, other then the smaller and slower round that may not reach the vitals. But yet if a smaller round was quicker to he in my hand in a L/D situation I will use it with no hesitation.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    Stealth Potato wrote:
    Pointman wrote:
    I certainly don't want to sound overly harsh, but if two thugs in black masks try to rob me at gunpoint, most likely in the dark, with a mean looking gun that might go full-auto, I'm not feeling sorry for them when they cry like a baby.
    There's no mutual exclusion between feeling pity for the dying man and understanding that it was a fate he made for himself. Pity is not forgiveness -- I feel very sorry for the guy in this story, but I also know that he only got what he deserved and should have expected.
    And that's exactly where I'm coming from. It's a pity that someone raised this guy to be the scum that he is. It's a pity that somebody didn't whop the tar out of him the first time he stole something, or hurt someone just for fun. If he had had a father that would have made him toe the line, he may not have turned out this way.

    But, he did turn out to be a dangerous human being with no respect for anyone but himself. I would have no remorse for shooting down a BG like that.

    And yes, I've seen and treated sucking chest wounds from GS's in the E.R. That wouldn'tgive me much cause for remorse or concern.
    These thoughts are exactly how I feel about a BG being shot. I am a deep thinker, and I am a people watcher. Sometimes when I observe people going about their daily business let’s say a guy working in landscaping, a woman walking her dog, a teenager walking from school, I think about how in this world there are people that will harm these people for no reason what-so-ever, when realizing how true this is, and how people don’t see the need for protection really hurts me inside because these people who may be very kind people, and someone would do them harm and not care about them or their love ones in the least bit.

    People like this guy who got shot would, kill, maim, or hurt anyone for a dollar bill, or a leather coat, or anything simple like that. Why would I feel sorry for these BG’s if they are having a slow death from being shot my me or a person that did what they had to do to stay alive. They would kill you, me OR ANYONE in a worst way if they could. They (BG) chose this lifestyle along with all the dangers that comes with it. WE don’t choose to live this thug life, or a life of crime because we know it does not pay. He knew the risk and it was a gamble with his life and was willing to take this risk on his life, and I don’t feel sorry for him at all. Now going back to the innocent people I mentioned earlier. If they are killed by one of these BG. I hate to see that, and it hurts my heart to see it. I could go on and on about this, but it just bothers me so much, how this world is so evil.
    I'm the same way. Living in a college town I see young ladies out walking and jogging alone, night and day. Here where I live there is a jogging/riding path that has numerous areas where a BG could easily hide. If I happen to be driving by and see a person being attacked I would not hesitate to stop and end the attack. If the BG happens to get shot during that confrontation, whether he dies immediately because of good shot placement and right caliber, or dies later begging for his mother with a sucking chest wound because of poor shot placement and wrong choice of caliber the end result is the same, I'll have no sympathy for the BG but thank GOD the person being attacked lived through the experience, andI should get a paycheck from Waste Management for taking out the trash.

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    IndianaBoy79 wrote:
    I actually wish they wouldn't label people like this guy a "victim". It seems to me that he won the gunfight, potentially saving his life. Doesn't sound like a victim to me...
    You are wrong !!

    Just because he went to work aware of his surroundings, to make a living for a possible wife and children, doesn't mean he had this scenario planned out, he was infact prepared for the worst, but it wasn't a part of his daily plan i'm sure. He was forced into a scenario not of his ownchoosing by what I will tell youwas most certainly a burden to society = 1 down many more to go and the numbers are growing as we speak..

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    At this point it appears to be a robbery gone bad.
    To me this sounds like a robbery gone right.

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    I pray i never have to use my firearm and as most on here i'm sure at some point or another we have thought about the ramifications of having to use deadly force. Naturaly God has given us the desire to survive yet he instills emotions of remorse in us as well. I know it can't be easy to live with that decission and i know that I now im talking about me here. It would be hard on me. I just hope the guy knew Jesus but more than likely he did not.

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    My last confrontational shooting with a perp was 31 years ago. I (since) have not experienced one day of regret, remorse or sympathy for the perp. To err is human... to forgive is not in my job description. Given the same circumstance or similar... I'd do it again w/o hesitation.

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