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Thread: Do some of you think....

  1. #1
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    ....that the only reason you OC is to try and get a negative reaction?



    Now before any of you get all defensive let me state my case. I'm a military veteran and currently work in law enforcement, I have been around weapons my entire life and completely support the rights we are entitled to. I was introduced to this forums several weeks ago and have been reading posts almost daily since then. In my opinion, the majority of people on here are level headed and don't OC just to get a negative reaction but I've read posts that either subtly or overtly talk about going somewhere looking for someone to "step all over my rights".



    Do you think those people give OC a bad name....and really is it something to brag about? I'm sure us CCW folks will be getting an earload of crap after the latest Grey Poupon incident. I'm sure you've all heard the argument of OC and being the initial target if something were to happen....what is your argument aside from OC being a deterrent? How many of you that OC also have your CCW?

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    Your logic, while understandable, is flawed. Go read the Open Carry Argument: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=371028

    And for the OP, asking this type of question on an "Open Carry" board makes you look like a troll.

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    Instead of folks getting all e-hurt and throwing the insults, how about just answering some questions or asking some back in a civilized manner?

    Where better to ask questions about OC than an OC board? I'm not against OC in the least....just making a casual observation about some of the proponents of OC. Call names, cite others work all you want....I would rather have someone have an adult discussion about what THEY think and not others thoughts on OC as a deterrent.

    I agree with it being a deterrent...I can also see it being a bullseye painted on your hip.

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    sfemti33 wrote:
    Instead of citing someone elses work why dont YOU tell me why my logic is flawed, in a less condescending, talking down to kind of way. Remember, Im an adult.
    I wasn't being condescending... and why reinvent the wheel? Read it if you want, if not, don't.

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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    Instead of folks getting all e-hurt and throwing the insults, how about just answering some questions or asking some back in a civilized manner?

    Where better to ask questions about OC than an OC board? I'm not against OC in the least....just making a casual observation about some of the proponents of OC. Call names, cite others work all you want....I would rather have someone have an adult discussion about what THEY think and not others thoughts on OC as a deterrent.

    I agree with it being a deterrent...I can also see it being a bullseye painted on your hip.
    The question you asked was, "Do some of you think that the only reason you OC is to try and get a negative reaction?" It was YOUR question that made you look like a troll, not my response. And calling someone a troll is not name calling, it's a standard internet forum term:

    An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    sfemti33 wrote:
    Instead of citing someone elses work why dont YOU tell me why my logic is flawed, in a less condescending, talking down to kind of way. Remember, Im an adult.
    I wasn't being condescending... and why reinvent the wheel? Read it if you want, if not, don't.
    I read it and it has several valid points, but there's also a counter point that is just as valid to nearly every point he makes.

    But back to my original questions. Open carry....why do you personally do it? Because you can, because it's a deterrent, because you are looking for someone to step on your rights? Do you think that those people who do OC just to look for someone to violate their rights are a help or a hindrance? Do you have your CC?



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    And it also looks like you focused on that one sentence then wrote your reply. Look at the next paragraph where I said that during my brief time browsing the forum, the majority of posts I've read come from level headed folks who aren't being antagonistic about their OC, but I have come across posts where I get the felling people are doing it just to get a negative reaction out of others.

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    Well, I carry for protection. I like OC more for comfort and the outward deterent to crime - the ability to educate those who ask questions is nice as well. I don't know anyone who open carries for attention.

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    GeneticsDave wrote:
    Well, I carry for protection. I like OC more for comfort and the outward deterent to crime - the ability to educate those who ask questions is nice as well. I don't know anyone who open carries for attention.
    Thank you much....do you also have a CC?

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    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones, that is the most important thing. It doesn't matter HOW you carry as long as you do it and refuse to be a victim. OC vs. CC is simply a matter of personal preference -- I do both every single day.

    As far as the deterrence argument goes, there is no hard data (like surveys of violent offenders) either way to back up either side, though everything I have read seems to point to deterrence rather than "shoot me first."

    I find the tactical argument a bit silly, primarily because, as mainsail has pointed out very effectively, surprise is NOT a defensive strategy. CCers are just as likely to be targeted as a non-carrier of the same awareness level, OCers would only be targeted by the crazy, mass-murder types of criminals that are far more rare than everyday thugs looking for an easy score.

    I do not go looking for negative encounters when I OC, in fact in the almost 5 months that I have been OCing I have yet to have a negative encounter with anyone, citizen or LEO. I do think that more people should carry in areas where they are more likely to have a negative encounter. For example, the police in Logan have made it clear that they will be enforcing their opinions instead of the law (see "Logan" thread). In cases like that, we should get as many people as we can OCing in Logan, as the LE agency being paid by us that are supposed to serve us really need to learn a lesson -- if that lesson takes a false arrest lawsuit, so be it.

    A common argument I hear (online, as I never meet any resistance actually OCing) is that "this isn't the Wild Wild West anymore." Maybe it should be. Crime was lower, people were more polite, and I know I would love to see some "Wanted: Dead or Alive" posters up for some of the scumbags out there.

    I carry for protection, I carry openly to educate and protect my rights -- and those education opportunities come far more often than non-OCers like to believe.

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    sfemti33 wrote:
    Wow, thank you for a level headed and fair analysis. Well done, do you personally know of people on here that do it just to antagonize though? Im honestly very curious about that.
    All of the people on here that I have met (because I don't "know" anyone I haven't met) are very polite and fun to be around. I don't think any of them are the type to go looking for trouble -- except maybe that TJ guy... :P (I am kidding, in case the emoticion wasn't enough)

    I think that the reason it might seem like some are just out for trouble is because negative experiences are posted far more often than "nothing happened." Nothing happens 99% of the time, people aren't interested in that, they want to hear about the times when stuff goes down.

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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    ....that the only reason you OC is to try and get a negative reaction?



    Now before any of you get all defensive let me state my case. I'm a military veteran and currently work in law enforcement, I have been around weapons my entire life and completely support the rights we are entitled to. I was introduced to this forums several weeks ago and have been reading posts almost daily since then. In my opinion, the majority of people on here are level headed and don't OC just to get a negative reaction but I've read posts that either subtly or overtly talk about going somewhere looking for someone to "step all over my rights".



    Do you think those people give OC a bad name....and really is it something to brag about? I'm sure us CCW folks will be getting an earload of crap after the latest Grey Poupon incident. I'm sure you've all heard the argument of OC and being the initial target if something were to happen....what is your argument aside from OC being a deterrent? How many of you that OC also have your CCW?
    I do believe SOME OCers DO give OCing a bad name and appearently yesterday CCWers are to .

    We will see ALL kinds of people no matter where we are and what we do or how we do it. I firmly believe in the 2nd Amendment Right as well as the 9 other ones.

    To OC servesa fewpurposes for myself.

    1 ) The derrent factor.

    2) HOT/ Warm weather. It's nice to walk outside WITHOUT any extra layers.

    3) And the Obvious one. To make people aware of the Right they have in this Beautiful Country.

    Remember, a person between 18-21 CANNOT have a CCW. So the ONLY option they have IS to OC. I do believe that some of those folks wish sometimes that they HAD a CCW. Would make it easier sometimes. I just wish Utah Adopted the same tinking as Vermont and Alasksa where a "Privilege" is NOT needed to CCW.

    To be honest, I OC more than I CC but I still have the option to do either one. I don;t have to hide it "under a bushel" so to speak.

    It's easier to seperate a Lawful/Law-abiding Citizen/Resident from a Criminal when a person OC. Why? you may ask.

    A Criminal DOES NOT want a be confronted by a LEO. As a Law-abiding Citizen/Resident I have NOTHING to hide.

    A Criminal CCW's NO MATTER WHAT. The Criminal LOVES Gun-control. Just makes their Job SOOO much easier. They will still have Guns while the Law-abiding WILL NOT.

    I have deterred crimes by OCing. I know so and many others here on the Forum have expressed that they have done so to.

    Just my .40



    TJ

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    sfemti33 wrote:
    I am interested in coming to one of your meets, and I know of some of my friends are as well, how well would we be received even if we dont OC? Is it uncommon to have individuals show up who dont OC?
    Everyone is welcome at our get-togethers, OCers, CCers, non-carriers, whatever -- The more the merrier!

    Not sure if the August meet is planned yet, if it has been mentioned over on UCC I am sure someone will link it.

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    Thanks for the responses....this is what I was looking for, well written and honest.

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    sfemti33 wrote:
    I am interested in coming to one of your meets, and I know of some of my friends are as well, how well would we be received even if we dont OC? Is it uncommon to have individuals show up who dont OC?

    ANYBODY is welcome. Doesn't matter if they a carrying at all. We are a happy bunch of people and want to make sure that ANYBODY that comes is welcomed into "the fold". They will be coverted soon enough.

    TJ

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    My wife and I carry, and carried for years. I grew up with OC, being on a ranch and protecting livestock. We carried rifles most of the time as well.

    My wife and I then moved to the city, back east, and promptly got CC permits. What changed was our personal protection factor went up (way up). Once we had kids, it was kicked a notch upwards even more, and we have had some close calls that were prevented by being aware of our surroundings.

    We have since relocated back to Montana, and have a ranch with livestock again. We primarily OC around the ranch here. I usually OC during the summer (going to town) as you just want to wear less clothing, and I carry OWB. During the fall/winter I am CC since you have more clothing. While our view of needing it for personal protection is less than when we were in the city, Montana is not the place it used to be, or at least the way that I perceived it.

    -CZ

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    MontanaCZ wrote:
    My wife and I carry, and carried for years. I grew up with OC, being on a ranch and protecting livestock. We carried rifles most of the time as well.

    My wife and I then moved to the city, back east, and promptly got CC permits. What changed was our personal protection factor went up (way up). Once we had kids, it was kicked a notch upwards even more, and we have had some close calls that were prevented by being aware of our surroundings.

    We have since relocated back to Montana, and have a ranch with livestock again. We primarily OC around the ranch here. I usually OC during the summer (going to town) as you just want to wear less clothing, and I carry OWB. During the fall/winter I am CC since you have more clothing. While our view of needing it for personal protection is less than when we were in the city, Montana is not the place it used to be, or at least the way that I perceived it.

    -CZ



    Montana is not the place it used to be, or at least the way that I perceived it.

    You got that right for certain,Sir.

    I mean NO place is what it USE to be. The world is filled with more violence.

    Montana IS a Beautiful State. If I was single I would be there yesterday.

    TJ


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    My background includes over 23 years in the Army Special Forces. All this time I have studied the art of insurgency which is virtually criminal in nature; I understand the criminal mindset. When planning for an attack I always look for the softest target that will acchieve my goals. I OC for tactical and strategic reasons. When I OC, I am not the first target, my vicinity becomes the last target.

    Dispite what others have already said on the subject, there are MANY examples to support this tactic. All our mass murder attemps are in "gun free zones" and nobody has ever attempted one at a gun show. If anyone can submit even one example where an armed citizen was targeted first rather than being a deterent I may sway my opinion some. Until then, I will continue to think that CC is the the tactical superiority that many claim it to be.

    I have also, on a couple of occations, suggested that we conduct OC events in areas that have reputations or policies against OC. This is not in an attempt to find trouble but rather the opposite. I want to make OC a common and accepted practice so the touble that some here have had will cease.

    The "not the wild west" argument is one that is so mentally shortsighted that it backfires when any data is provided. We are in far greater need of weapons for self defense today than the common citizen needed in the "wild west."

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    GenkiSudo wrote:
    ....that the only reason you OC is to try and get a negative reaction?



    Now before any of you get all defensive let me state my case. I'm a military veteran and currently work in law enforcement, I have been around weapons my entire life and completely support the rights we are entitled to. I was introduced to this forums several weeks ago and have been reading posts almost daily since then. In my opinion, the majority of people on here are level headed and don't OC just to get a negative reaction but I've read posts that either subtly or overtly talk about going somewhere looking for someone to "step all over my rights".



    Do you think those people give OC a bad name....and really is it something to brag about? I'm sure us CCW folks will be getting an earload of crap after the latest Grey Poupon incident. I'm sure you've all heard the argument of OC and being the initial target if something were to happen....what is your argument aside from OC being a deterrent? How many of you that OC also have your CCW?
    One of the reasons to OC is that it helps you as a person to behave much better. It adjust your attitude and behavior.

    We don't have any "BRANDISHING" laws in Utah BUT your behavior that counts.

    UTAH STATE LEGISLATURE
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    76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.
    Every person, except those persons described in Section 76-10-503, who, not in necessary self defense in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits any dangerous weapon in an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses the same in any fight or quarrel is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

    Amended by Chapter 101, 1992 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WordPerfect 76_10_050600.ZIP 1,720 Bytes


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    Last revised: Wednesday, July 23, 2008

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