Why Open Carry? -- What Would You Include?

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Here was my post -- more appropriately posted here onthis thread:

"Thanks for your reply about Alderwood Mall. I'm new to concealed carry and have obtained my CPL and have been reading like crazy all the laws pertaining to it, but lately have become very interested in open carry.

"The whole concept of openly carrying a firearm on one's hip, in urban society and in the 21st Century, was intriguing to me. Three-and-a-half years ago my home was broken into andshortly thereafter I boughta weapon and excercised my right to bear arms by obtaining a permit to carry concealed. I read a lot about it and saw the logic in the idea that, if a person can have one's home broken into there is also a random chance one can be violently assaulted (with no provocation!) in or away from one's home.

"But, it had never occurred to me that a person could open carry, like I said before, in an urban environment and in this day and age. Pardon my candidness and my prior ignorance, but I had assumed that that sort of thing had been regulated away as a possibility long ago. I figured the idea of open carry had gone the way of the Old Western Gunfighter.

"And that is exactly why, when I tripped upon some links that led me to this site and others where I had the chance to read about real live people exercising their rights to bear arms in an open and visible manner, I became very interested in the whole idea.Questions began to enter my mindafter realizing that it wasn't just a possibility, but was being done by a growing number of people around the country -- questions like,

"WHY would someone want to:

-risk being looked at like a deviant by friends, family, co-workers, acquaintances of any kind. (Beingcast as a "deviant" by people in these categories never helps to bring one's character into a favorable light in court when a prosecutor is trying to build a case, or when one is inthe middle of adivorce or child custody proceeding);

- risk being set-upon, questioned, harrassed, even assaulted and arrested by a majority (as it seems to me) of misunderstood law enforcement officers;

- risk the possibility of putting one's family finances in jeopardy if one happens to step out of line (evenina very infinitesimally small manner) while carrying a weapon openly and is prosecuted for this small error with the full force of the law -- simply because a liberal-minded prosecutor happens to get a hair up his wazzu about YOU, the new standard-bearer of the gun-toting, right wing militant population heperceives you represent.

- risk all the attention, all the double takes, the possibility of some busy-body "calling you in" onhis cell phone, the store managers coming up to you to ask you to leave his store, the looks of disdain, the pointing children,and so on... (It seems to me many of you, me included, are not types to go around seeking attention. I'm sure I only need to mention the term "Grey Man" to this readership and the concept is fully understood if not fully embraced.)

- and most importantly, riskthe possibility that a violent, disturbed, hell-bent person who now has the jump on you because heKNOWS you have a gun andKNOWS you have no clue he's even there, grabs your gun from behind and renders you a non-threat in one manner or another (The readership here likes to be prepared and that is why we carry, so should we be any less prepared for this eventuality?...)

"So these are some of the bigger questions for which I've been seeking answers, and which I've been asking myself as I consider the idea of OC'ing. One thing I can say is that I have tried it and it was a thrill. I wore my FNP-40 in a holster on my belt on my right hip and my magazines in a carrier on my left and went out my front door, got into my car and drove to Sam's for some plinking. After target shooting there, with a whole team of ATF watching, I walked around the store and bought some Hydra Shock rounds and then left, got into my car and drove home -- all without so much as a raised eyebrow (though I did notice some furtive glances from the ATF guys while I walked around the store).

"... and WHY did I decide to do that on that day a couple of weeks ago? Because I had the RIGHT to, and because I owned a firearm and could carry it openly, I decided to do it simply to EXERCISE that right. Is Alderwood Mall the next place where I will choose to take my rights out for a walk? Maybe. It's nice to know there's no signage and that others have OC'd there. Talk about a great place to desensitize a few thousand people toward the idea of legally and openly carrying a firearm!

"But still, the questions remain, so I thought I'd post them up here to see if any of you have the same questions, and if any of you have come to any conclusions."

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I would carry openly because I'm sort of an "open" sort of man. I wear symbols on my outer garments showing my Christian beliefs, my patriotic stance and my political affiliations. I do the best I can to be open and forthright as to who I am and what I believe.

Did I mention I'm armed?


On a practical level, non-concealed holsters are more comfortable and easier to fit and wear. Nor does one have to be concerned about 'printing' or 'showing'.

On another practical level, it's easier to carry a full sized handgun in a suitable caliber in an open carry holster. No need to compromise on a marginal or minimal caliber just so one can hide it. Mom always said, "Anyone worth shooting is worth shooting well."

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VonKonig wrote:

Here was my post -- more appropriately posted here onthis thread:

"Thanks for your reply about Alderwood Mall. I'm new to concealed carry and have obtained my CPL and have been reading like crazy all the laws pertaining to it, but lately have become very interested in open carry.

"The whole concept of openly carrying a firearm on one's hip, in urban society and in the 21st Century, was intriguing to me. Three-and-a-half years ago my home was broken into andshortly thereafter I boughta weapon and excercised my right to bear arms by obtaining a permit to carry concealed. I read a lot about it and saw the logic in the idea that, if a person can have one's home broken into there is also a random chance one can be violently assaulted (with no provocation!) in or away from one's home.

"But, it had never occurred to me that a person could open carry, like I said before, in an urban environment and in this day and age. Pardon my candidness and my prior ignorance, but I had assumed that that sort of thing had been regulated away as a possibility long ago. I figured the idea of open carry had gone the way of the Old Western Gunfighter.

"And that is exactly why, when I tripped upon some links that led me to this site and others where I had the chance to read about real live people exercising their rights to bear arms in an open and visible manner, I became very interested in the whole idea.Questions began to enter my mindafter realizing that it wasn't just a possibility, but was being done by a growing number of people around the country -- questions like,

"WHY would someone want to:

-risk being looked at like a deviant by friends, family, co-workers, acquaintances of any kind. (Beingcast as a "deviant" by people in these categories never helps to bring one's character into a favorable light in court when a prosecutor is trying to build a case, or when one is inthe middle of adivorce or child custody proceeding);

- risk being set-upon, questioned, harrassed, even assaulted and arrested by a majority (as it seems to me) of misunderstood law enforcement officers;

- risk the possibility of putting one's family finances in jeopardy if one happens to step out of line (evenina very infinitesimally small manner) while carrying a weapon openly and is prosecuted for this small error with the full force of the law -- simply because a liberal-minded prosecutor happens to get a hair up his wazzu about YOU, the new standard-bearer of the gun-toting, right wing militant population heperceives you represent.

- risk all the attention, all the double takes, the possibility of some busy-body "calling you in" onhis cell phone, the store managers coming up to you to ask you to leave his store, the looks of disdain, the pointing children,and so on... (It seems to me many of you, me included, are not types to go around seeking attention. I'm sure I only need to mention the term "Grey Man" to this readership and the concept is fully understood if not fully embraced.)

- and most importantly, riskthe possibility that a violent, disturbed, hell-bent person who now has the jump on you because heKNOWS you have a gun andKNOWS you have no clue he's even there, grabs your gun from behind and renders you a non-threat in one manner or another (The readership here likes to be prepared and that is why we carry, so should we be any less prepared for this eventuality?...)

"So these are some of the bigger questions for which I've been seeking answers, and which I've been asking myself as I consider the idea of OC'ing. One thing I can say is that I have tried it and it was a thrill. I wore my FNP-40 in a holster on my belt on my right hip and my magazines in a carrier on my left and went out my front door, got into my car and drove to Sam's for some plinking. After target shooting there, with a whole team of ATF watching, I walked around the store and bought some Hydra Shock rounds and then left, got into my car and drove home -- all without so much as a raised eyebrow (though I did notice some furtive glances from the ATF guys while I walked around the store).

"... and WHY did I decide to do that on that day a couple of weeks ago? Because I had the RIGHT to, and because I owned a firearm and could carry it openly, I decided to do it simply to EXERCISE that right. Is Alderwood Mall the next place where I will choose to take my rights out for a walk? Maybe. It's nice to know there's no signage and that others have OC'd there. Talk about a great place to desensitize a few thousand people toward the idea of legally and openly carrying a firearm!

"But still, the questions remain, so I thought I'd post them up here to see if any of you have the same questions, and if any of you have come to any conclusions."

Click to expand...

Well... You have a large number of concerns, so I will try to address them individually...

1. I really don't care if people consider me the "deviant". I like to do things that make people think. Openly carrying allows me an opportunity to challenge others to think. "Why are you carrying a gun?" "What do you want to do with that?" I am able to answer their questions, and challenge the "anti-gun" mentality. As far as court, the prosecutor is going to have a hard time building a case not because of my "deviant lifestyle", but because he will not be able to find a crime to charge me with.

2. It is also an opportunity to inform, educate, and de-stigmatize the ownership and carrying of sidearms. Law Enforcement and the general community both.

3. Some things are worth the risk, financial or otherwise. Secondly, the MORE PEOPLE who openly carry, the more COMMON it becomes, and the RISK will lessen. Plus, any unlawful arrest defense expenses will be more than compensated for in the soon-to-follow civil lawsuit. Consider it an investment.

4. Contrary to what one may expect, it is RARE when you get any more attention than the occasional puzzled or inquisitive look. Most people are happy to mind their own business, and many seem to not even notice. The most important thing? When you begin to open carry, act as if you have done it every day for the past 30 years.
If you are nervous and fidgety, then people will tend to focus on you. If you basically ignore everyone (or at least appear to) and present yourself as though the gun has been there since birth, then people will just glance, and most will justify it in their own minds: "Police", "Armed Guard", etc.

5. First, most criminals are not bold, dashing, James-Bond types. They are scared and cowardly. Their boldness arises from the vast majority of people responding fearfully when they make threats, or intimidating actions. The concept of a truly "badass" criminal is mostly Hollywood make-believe, just like the idea of gunfights in the streets everyday in the Old West.
Open Carry is a deterrent. Instead of robbing the soft fellow who will hand over the cash without a fight, the criminal has to now face the risk of the armed citizen. Most likely, the confrontation will be one that never happens. You may never know, exactly how close you came to being robbed, because your sidearm was plainly visible.


As far as the pros to open carry? Easier access to your weapon. Educational oppurtunities. Making people aware of the concept that you have another choice other than police, criminal, or disarmed. It looks cool as hell. Helps prevent general arguments and rudeness; people tend to be more polite, although some are a bit uncertian at first. A big smile always helps to take the apprehension away.

A most important for me? It is a CONSTANT reminder of not only the BENEFITS I enjoy of living in a free society, but of the RESPONSIBLITIES I have as a Citizen of that society. When you put that sidearm on, you can't help but KNOW that eyes are on you. Frankly, it makes me calmer, more collected, and more considerate.

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The Constitution does not 'GIVE you or anyone' Rights. The Constitution recognizes the pre-existance of such Rights... declares that they exist and are to be protected/defended by the Government. The Right to self defense is a pre-existing Right.

Arms are the recognized means to self defense. Cicero argued this point in the Roman Senate 2083 years ago (and won). The 2A does not specify 'firearms'... only 'Arms'.


In the Heller case, Justice Scalia wrote:

“Nowhere else in the Constitution does a ”right“ attributed to ”the people“ refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention ”the people,“ the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset...

(That would be the militia argument...)

The Second Amendment extends prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms... The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it shall not be infringed.

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Thanks so much for taking the time to go through my questions point by point with such excellent reason, logic and perspective, Phoenixphire. It makes me truly grateful to have a resource such as this forum when I seek to learn more about the lawful and peaceable exercise of my "inherent right" to bear arms as affirmed by the 2nd Ammendment (a tip of my hat to you Sonora...)

As a result of your reply to my questions, I will now carry with much more confidence and hopefully win over some converts in the process.

- Von

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The main point is to carry.

If you want to conceal carry, and that is what makes you most comfortable, then by all means, carry concealed.

The purpose of this site isn't to say that open carry is the only "right" way to do it. The idea is to let people know, and to promote the concept, that there is a more than just one way to carry, and that doing so is legal, moral, and ethical.


And welcome to the forum, by the way.

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On the issue of Rights....


Many people (in society as a general) think of Rights as something given. The concept that our country was founded on took that idea and throw it out the window.

From the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


The very cause of the American Revolution was that the old idea of men being subject to the "Divine Right of Kings", of there being a natural hierarchy of class, was fundamentally flawed.

Instead, all men are brought into this world as equals, none having right over another by merit of birth or status. Each person brought into this world has natural human Rights. No government or authority should be permitted to arbitrarily remove these inherent Rights.

The Bill of Rights was implemented in order to guarantee the people the tools necessary to preserve their Natural Rights. Independent thought and free expression of that thought. The means to defend ones self against those who would do you harm. The right to not be compelled into a forced confession, or to be held without recourse. These are all essential tools to preserve ones Natural Rights to Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness, among others.


It is important that we all understand this key thing: Our Natural Rights are our human birthright. They are the fundamental makeup of Freedom. And to what purpose is life, without Freedom?

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I have seen the statement of "God Given Right" a lot around these forums, and I too have an issue with this statement for a number of reasons and feel that it would be better replaced by the term "Unalienable Right"!
1.) You and I along with most of the population of this country may be 'God Fearing' individuals, but this is first and foremost a political fight, not a religious one! More wars have been fought over religion than politics so why would you want to open the door to a battle that does not have to be fought?
2.) God did not 'give' us 'rights'. He gave us life. Our 'rights' were determined by man to be 'Unalienable' meaning preexisting and timeless. They were never 'given' and thus cannot be taken away!
3.)By stating that the right was 'God Given' you imply that only those whom are in God's grace have the right to bear arms! This will alienate many who are with us in our fight, but not with us in our Spiritual beliefs!
4.)By bringing 'God' into the argument at all we could easily be branded by the media as a 'Radical Spiritual Group' where in actuality a discussion on religion will likely cause many arguments among the members of this forum and dissidence within the ranks of what needs to be a joined force!
I would STRONGLY suggest that anyone tempted to use the term 'God Given' that they replace it with 'Unalienable' from now on. I feel that that can only help the cause!
Just my $0.02
Gator >|--|~

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Gator5713 wrote:

I have seen the statement of "God Given Right" a lot around these forums, and I too have an issue with this statement for a number of reasons and feel that it would be better replaced by the term "Unalienable Right"!
1.) You and I along with most of the population of this country may be 'God Fearing' individuals, but this is first and foremost a political fight, not a religious one! More wars have been fought over religion than politics so why would you want to open the door to a battle that does not have to be fought?
2.) God did not 'give' us 'rights'. He gave us life. Our 'rights' were determined by man to be 'Unalienable' meaning preexisting and timeless. They were never 'given' and thus cannot be taken away!
3.)By stating that the right was 'God Given' you imply that only those whom are in God's grace have the right to bear arms! This will alienate many who are with us in our fight, but not with us in our Spiritual beliefs!
4.)By bringing 'God' into the argument at all we could easily be branded by the media as a 'Radical Spiritual Group' where in actuality a discussion on religion will likely cause many arguments among the members of this forum and dissidence within the ranks of what needs to be a joined force!
I would STRONGLY suggest that anyone tempted to use the term 'God Given' that they replace it with 'Unalienable' from now on. I feel that that can only help the cause!
Just my $0.02
Gator >|--|~

Click to expand...

I agree in spirit but I respectfully submit the term "natural" i.e. endowed by nature.

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Back to the topic at hand....
I actually requested in another thread a 'brochure' of sorts outlining the petition and educating people of the current laws vs what our rights 'should' be... I don't feel that the current 'flyer' is adequate to inform or inspire deeper research in anyone that is not already a 'choir member'. And people in general are lazy which means that simply handing out the petition isn't going to help too much because most people wont ever actually read it! But, if there was a colorful, informative, easy to read brochure with bullet points etc that could be handed out along with a copy of the petition I feel that some massive strides could be made in amassing more popular support. I am new to this forum, and although I have read the petition, I am unfamiliar with many of the finer points and surrounding laws thus making me ineffective in designing said brochure, however, If one were available I would gladly print a good handful out (needs to be something that we can each print easily on our home printer) to carry around with me and pass out to whoever I can! If anyone has something like this (or even just the bullet point list) please post it! I am fairly decent with publisher so I could possibly design the publication, but I need the points and some pointers! I could also make the 'final version' a PDF document so that it is easily opened and printed by anyone.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Any 'rough drafts' out there?
Laterz,
Gator
>|--|~

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Why open carry? Because that's what works! It is simply the most practical way to carry a firearm. That's why the police and military carry openly.

If concealed carry was more practical, that's what the police and military would be doing.

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Alabama Supreme Court 1840 this is old but i still like it

"Under the provision of our constitution, we incline to the opinion that the Legislature cannot inhibit the citzen from bearing arms openly

because it authorizes him to bear them for defending himself or his state, and



it is only when carried openly, that they can be efficiently used for defense"

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I open carry whenever I can (very , very limited in New York State).

Iliterally left my very secure well paid job of 20 years, took my kids out of their school, sold my house and moved way upstate NY to get away from oppressive Downstate urban living conditions of all types. Not the least of these were the restrictive (to and from range, etc) carry laws.

Now that I am up here, I am living amongst like minded people (we don't even have a Democrat Party in local elections) and find it rare to worry about someone catching a glimpse of my sidearm under my jacket.

I OC under limited circumstances, such as on my own land, in a hunting area, but I do. Why?

I believe that the main reason is my own family. I have three teenagers, and I want them to have some idea of the concept of being a true, take-care-of your-own American before they go out into a world dominated by the opposite mind-set.

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I the Person wrote:

Why open carry? Because that's what works! It is simply the most practical way to carry a firearm. That's why the police and military carry openly.

If concealed carry was more practical, that's what the police and military would be doing.

Click to expand...

Actually the military must carry openly, that's one of the provisions of the Geneva Convention. Hiding a gun would be one step toward being a spy. (They could be legally executed for that)

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WheelGun wrote:

I open carry whenever I can (very , very limited in New York State).

Iliterally left my very secure well paid job of 20 years, took my kids out of their school, sold my house and moved way upstate NY to get away from oppressive Downstate urban living conditions of all types. Not the least of these were the restrictive (to and from range, etc) carry laws.

Now that I am up here, I am living amongst like minded people (we don't even have a Democrat Party in local elections) and find it rare to worry about someone catching a glimpse of my sidearm under my jacket.

I OC under limited circumstances, such as on my own land, in a hunting area, but I do. Why?

I believe that the main reason is my own family. I have three teenagers, and I want them to have some idea of the concept of being a true, take-care-of your-own American before they go out into a world dominated by the opposite mind-set.

Click to expand...

Kudos to you for trying to educate your young'uns in the true concepts of America:dude:

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It's wierd how many of my downstate NY colleagues and family memberssaid to me as I was packing up to leave: "You and your family must be so brave" as if I had a pioneer wagon and a horse team parked outside. What's so brave about moving to an area of the country (or even the same state) that still has real people living there?

I have noticed that at the end of a long discussion, many of the members of OC.org distill everything down to: 'the only real hope is to move to a place where the laws and culture are on your side.' That's all I did. My children will benefit from that for years to come.

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Sorry, off topic but I had to say it.