Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
"BATF? Hi. I might have transferred a gun with a shady FFL. What should I do?"
"BATF? Hi. I might have transferred a gun with a shady FFL. What should I do?"
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Got an email from an FFL used to xfer a rifle over 2 years ago
- Thread starter ChronoSphere
- Start date
hsmith
Regular Member
imported post
Doug Huffman wrote:
Doug Huffman wrote:
Watch out, they might kick down your door and shoot your dog.
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
Yeah? Well then *I* won't be callin' the BATFEMADHS.gov
I don't have a dog so they'd have to plant one. While I don't particularly like dogs neither do I want one to be shot while breaking down the door.
Yeah? Well then *I* won't be callin' the BATFEMADHS.gov
I don't have a dog so they'd have to plant one. While I don't particularly like dogs neither do I want one to be shot while breaking down the door.
imported post
As has already been said, there is quite a bit that just does not sound right.
Contact the FFL who is asking for information, and ask him to confirm the exact firearm he is concerned about (name, rank, serial number (of firearm), date received in his shop, mother's maiden name,name ofFFL it was received from, etc.).
Or since you have already taked with him, it may be time to stop by and discuss this in person. Ask to see the paperwork he screwed up, and after reviewing it provide only that which is needed.
Bring a prepared written statement with you - one that details your being contacted and your efforts to cooperate with the FFL on a voluntary basis. Be sure to include that you provided the information to the FFL at the time of transfer and that all errors of ommission regarding any records are entirely his fault. Have him sign the statement under an affirmation that all the above is true and correct to the best of his knowledge and recollection.
This may not CYA, but it will not hurt. Might be worth the few bucks spent to run this past a lawyer who specializes in criminal defense (harder to find one specializing in firearms law).
Good luck to you.
stay safe.
skidmark
As has already been said, there is quite a bit that just does not sound right.
Contact the FFL who is asking for information, and ask him to confirm the exact firearm he is concerned about (name, rank, serial number (of firearm), date received in his shop, mother's maiden name,name ofFFL it was received from, etc.).
Or since you have already taked with him, it may be time to stop by and discuss this in person. Ask to see the paperwork he screwed up, and after reviewing it provide only that which is needed.
Bring a prepared written statement with you - one that details your being contacted and your efforts to cooperate with the FFL on a voluntary basis. Be sure to include that you provided the information to the FFL at the time of transfer and that all errors of ommission regarding any records are entirely his fault. Have him sign the statement under an affirmation that all the above is true and correct to the best of his knowledge and recollection.
This may not CYA, but it will not hurt. Might be worth the few bucks spent to run this past a lawyer who specializes in criminal defense (harder to find one specializing in firearms law).
Good luck to you.
stay safe.
skidmark
Thundar
Regular Member
imported post
Do you still have the firearm? If you do not then this might be a law enforcement gun trace for a firearm used in a crime. If you stillhave the firearm than this is an FFL with paperwork problems or a scam.
Do you still have the firearm? If you do not then this might be a law enforcement gun trace for a firearm used in a crime. If you stillhave the firearm than this is an FFL with paperwork problems or a scam.
ChronoSphere
Regular Member
imported post
I still have the firearm. I just spoke with him over the phone, and he clarified that he doesn't need my information, he needs the name/FFL of the person I bought it from, or if it was private, name and address. Apparently ATF had a meeting with him last week and were requesting the origination of all weapons transferred through him. All I fill out when I transfer a gun is a 4473 form, which doesn't list the origination - that would be his responsibility I would imagine, and nothing to do with me.
In any case I don't have those records any more, so I'm just going to tell the guy that.
I still have the firearm. I just spoke with him over the phone, and he clarified that he doesn't need my information, he needs the name/FFL of the person I bought it from, or if it was private, name and address. Apparently ATF had a meeting with him last week and were requesting the origination of all weapons transferred through him. All I fill out when I transfer a gun is a 4473 form, which doesn't list the origination - that would be his responsibility I would imagine, and nothing to do with me.
In any case I don't have those records any more, so I'm just going to tell the guy that.
Gunslinger
Regular Member
imported post
VAopencarry wrote:
VAopencarry wrote:
Agree, but do nothing until you get a reasonable answer. Something is strange here. You may want to call the BATF and ask if an inquiry like this requires your supplying the info.
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
ChronoSphere wrote:
ChronoSphere wrote:
Sorry, I am totally confused as to the facts. If the transfer went thru a dealer, it was not a private sale.
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
ChronoSphere wrote:
ChronoSphere wrote:
Private sale transferred across state lines by the friendly FFL.
ChronoSphere
Regular Member
imported post
Doug Huffman wrote:
Doug Huffman wrote:
Bingo. In any case, he's outta luck. You FFLs, are you required to track who sent you a weapon when you're doing an out of state transfer on some document? In any case, I'm in the clear, I fulfilled all my obligations when I got it originally.
jaredbelch
Founder's Club Member
imported post
So to clarify...
You bought a gun online from someone out of state (they could have been an FFL, they might have been private party).
You arranged with an FFL in your state to make the transfer.
The FFL in your state still has all of your info, but is trying to track down the info of the person you bought the gun from.
I'd let him know that unfortunately you don't have record of that info any more... End of story.
Edit: Sorry I was too slow, sounds like it's taken care of.
So to clarify...
You bought a gun online from someone out of state (they could have been an FFL, they might have been private party).
You arranged with an FFL in your state to make the transfer.
The FFL in your state still has all of your info, but is trying to track down the info of the person you bought the gun from.
I'd let him know that unfortunately you don't have record of that info any more... End of story.
Edit: Sorry I was too slow, sounds like it's taken care of.
imported post
This sounds awkward. The ATF has all the information they need when the transaction is approved. If, as might be the case, a transfer is made after the 3 day wait (assuming a delayed transaction), and the ATF calls back later and says that a person is denied after the transfer, they just get the contact information from the dealer. I have had to call a buyer before because I recorded a serial number wrong on a form, but it was not at the behest of the ATF.
How the hell did anyone involved get your e-mail address anyway? Sounds odd. I'd call the shop and/or the FFL that brokered the deal for clarification if this is a legit inquiry. I suspect not.
If this broker is accepting weapons in interstate commerce from another FFL, then he should at least have a faxed signed copy of the other FFL. Further, he's supposed to confirm (by phone or on-line) that it is in fact a valid/current license before completing the transaction. Sounds like he cut a few corners and will have to answer to The Man. Not your fault in any case.
-ljp
This sounds awkward. The ATF has all the information they need when the transaction is approved. If, as might be the case, a transfer is made after the 3 day wait (assuming a delayed transaction), and the ATF calls back later and says that a person is denied after the transfer, they just get the contact information from the dealer. I have had to call a buyer before because I recorded a serial number wrong on a form, but it was not at the behest of the ATF.
How the hell did anyone involved get your e-mail address anyway? Sounds odd. I'd call the shop and/or the FFL that brokered the deal for clarification if this is a legit inquiry. I suspect not.
If this broker is accepting weapons in interstate commerce from another FFL, then he should at least have a faxed signed copy of the other FFL. Further, he's supposed to confirm (by phone or on-line) that it is in fact a valid/current license before completing the transaction. Sounds like he cut a few corners and will have to answer to The Man. Not your fault in any case.
-ljp
ChronoSphere
Regular Member
imported post
He got my email address because back when I was looking at purchasing the rifle, I contacted his business via email to ask if they indeed did out-of-state transfers. In any case, I already told him I have nothing for him so its his problem now.
He got my email address because back when I was looking at purchasing the rifle, I contacted his business via email to ask if they indeed did out-of-state transfers. In any case, I already told him I have nothing for him so its his problem now.
41 Magnum
Regular Member
imported post
I lean towards helping the guy out if you are sure this is legitimate.
Unfortunately I've seen what the ATF can/will pull, more than once. It isn't pretty. They could flat out ruin the guys life. All because he made a mistake?
Put the shoe on the other foot for a second.
Do you HAVE TO help him out? No.
Are you in a position to do so very easily? Sounds like it.
Sure it's inconvenient, sure you shouldn't have to, and yes it GALLS the hell out of you giving the .gov personal info. But you just might be able to keep a fellow gun enthusiast out of prison with a simple phone call.
One other thing to think on regarding the .gov:
How many guns have you bought since then? How many do you own currently? How many have you bought while at your current address? If you're anything like me, if you think about it, they already know who and where you are if they're really interested anyway.
I lean towards helping the guy out if you are sure this is legitimate.
Unfortunately I've seen what the ATF can/will pull, more than once. It isn't pretty. They could flat out ruin the guys life. All because he made a mistake?
Put the shoe on the other foot for a second.
Do you HAVE TO help him out? No.
Are you in a position to do so very easily? Sounds like it.
Sure it's inconvenient, sure you shouldn't have to, and yes it GALLS the hell out of you giving the .gov personal info. But you just might be able to keep a fellow gun enthusiast out of prison with a simple phone call.
One other thing to think on regarding the .gov:
How many guns have you bought since then? How many do you own currently? How many have you bought while at your current address? If you're anything like me, if you think about it, they already know who and where you are if they're really interested anyway.
imported post
If the ATF is making this guy backtrack and identify the source of guns that he's transferred, then he's probably already afoul of them in an audit, and there's no helping him. Sure, it's better to rectify the situation than have "mystery guns" going through your shop, but this would be regarded as a willful violation of procedure and a basis for review and/or revocation of his license. Really. They are quite humorless about these things.
-ljp
If the ATF is making this guy backtrack and identify the source of guns that he's transferred, then he's probably already afoul of them in an audit, and there's no helping him. Sure, it's better to rectify the situation than have "mystery guns" going through your shop, but this would be regarded as a willful violation of procedure and a basis for review and/or revocation of his license. Really. They are quite humorless about these things.
-ljp
ChronoSphere
Regular Member
imported post
I don't have the sale information he was wanting (originally I thought he wanted MY information, I could have given him that) but I don't have the info of the guy I bought the rifle from anymore, so I couldn't help him if I wanted to.
I don't have the sale information he was wanting (originally I thought he wanted MY information, I could have given him that) but I don't have the info of the guy I bought the rifle from anymore, so I couldn't help him if I wanted to.
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
I would not classify any dealer brokered background check fortified decentrally registered transfer as "private."
But, amstill confused.
If the transfer in effect was from A to B, but A first transferred the gun to FFL1, who transferred to FFL2, who transferred to B, I see no reason why FFL2 has any business knowing who A was at all - FFL2 should be able to tell the ATF who FFL1 was, that's it.
Right? Any dealers out there?
I would not classify any dealer brokered background check fortified decentrally registered transfer as "private."
But, amstill confused.
If the transfer in effect was from A to B, but A first transferred the gun to FFL1, who transferred to FFL2, who transferred to B, I see no reason why FFL2 has any business knowing who A was at all - FFL2 should be able to tell the ATF who FFL1 was, that's it.
Right? Any dealers out there?
imperialism2024
Regular Member
imported post
I'd just like to point out that, as much as I'd like to help out anyone who's dealing with the BATFE, working with someone the JBT's are investigating may open yourself up to criminal charges as well. So... know that you might be getting into it for the long haul if you want to help an FFL or other party fight the BATFE.
I'd just like to point out that, as much as I'd like to help out anyone who's dealing with the BATFE, working with someone the JBT's are investigating may open yourself up to criminal charges as well. So... know that you might be getting into it for the long haul if you want to help an FFL or other party fight the BATFE.