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Thread: 'More gun laws would mean civil war' Mike Vanderboegh LtE Madison, WI Capital Times

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    http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/letters/297313


    Dear Editor:

    Joe Bialek from Cleveland proposes the licensing and registration of all weapons currently in civilian hands. My question is, how exactly do you propose to do that, Joe?

    There are some of us "cold dead hands" types, perhaps 3 percent of gun owners, who would kill anyone who tried to further restrict our God-given liberty. Don't extrapolate from your own cowardice and assume that just because you would do anything the government told you to do that we would.

    Are you proposing to come yourself, or do you want someone else's son or daughter in federal service to take the risk? Are you truly prepared to stack up the bodies necessary to accomplish your plan? Seems a strange way to make a "safer society." More to the point, are you willing to risk your sorry hide to do it? No? I thought not.

    Then quit proposing the next American civil war. We're done being pushed back from our natural rights without a fight. Be careful what you wish for.

    Mike Vanderboegh

    Pinson, Ala.
    http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/0...not-apply.html

    [Excerpt]But Mike did not share goals with me in this instance, and that's fine, too. He wanted to introduce a concept most had never thought about: What happens if "they" keep pushing and "we" say "No"? What rule says all letters to the editor must be geared to "win hearts and minds"? By what authority does anyone presume that public warnings of dire consequences have no place? How about letters that inspire some of us, and let us know we're not alone, or letters that give those doing the pushing pause to consider there may be an "or else" with personal consequences attached to the "Stop it now"?
    http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2008...uld-we-please/

    Could we please…not make gun owners look like lunatics in the media for all to see?

    http://www.thebitchgirls.us/?p=8495

    Don’t be an *******. Sorry, thought that was covered in the last instruction to be polite.




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    Thanks for the edit. I thought about it and left it as a "quote".

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    This is a really good debate amongst various RKBA bloggers about the "don't say inflamatory things" issue, for "fear" that it will make us "look bad"in the eyes of our enemies.

    It's a difficult read because you have to follow various links and threads, sometimes skipping from one link to another and then back again. (Or you could print it all out and do a literal cut & paste to get it in order.)

    The bottom line seems to be that there is no bottom line that everyone can or will agree on regarding the issue. That appears to be something that needs to be decided on a personal and individual basis.

    That Being SaidTM there is the "culture" of the place where you post to be considered. Those who go against that "culture" risk censure and unnecessarily wasted bandwidth debating if they have the "right" to go against te "culture" of the particulasr board.

    Hope this has made everything as clear as mud.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Who is the lunatic?

    Is Mike the lunatic for expressing an opinion about natural rights and resistance to government tyranny? The ability to resist government tyranny was what the Second Amendment was written for.

    The Shot Heard Round the World, the battle of Lexington and Concord was about gun confiscation. I have no doubt that many will passively resist further gun control and some will actively resist any more gun control.

    Is Mike the lunatic because he pushed the envelope about resistance to a civil war level, or are the ones that ask us to quietly accept the erosion of our rights the lunatics?

    Great post Doug.

    Live Free or Die,

    Thundar
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    How I would respond to the knock on my door to this regard, is between me and my God for now. Would you like to meet my God?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    SNIP Would you like to meet my God?


    Was one of his prophets named John?



    As translated from the original ancient manuscripts by Fr. Frog.
    © copyright 2002 by John C. Schaefer

    1 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, "Thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain."

    ----

    There is a good bit more to the "Gospel" of John. Its rather humorous. You can see the rest here: http://www.frfrogspad.com/jmb.htm
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    SNIP Would you like to meet my God?


    Was one of his prophets named John?
    Was called the Rt. Rev. John before his elevation to sainthood.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I think of myself and a relatively educated and reasonable person. Some, in fact many would argue, but I think I am. I believe that diplomacy is the first and best option. Use diplomacy until there comes a point when diplomacy has not, or shows no signs of working.

    At some point you need to fight for what you believe in. I hope that when that day comes I have the fortitude to do what is right, but even better I hope the person that is sent to take my guns has the fortitude to do the same.

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    Well said.

    I would add; 'what is right' is for that person to step into his own backyard, lay out a large white plastic sheet, bathe, shrive and put us all out of his misery.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Theseus wrote:
    I think of myself and a relatively educated and reasonable person. Some, in fact many would argue, but I think I am. I believe that diplomacy is the first and best option. Use diplomacy until there comes a point when diplomacy has not, or shows no signs of working.

    At some point you need to fight for what you believe in. I hope that when that day comes I have the fortitude to do what is right, but even better I hope the person that is sent to take my guns has the fortitude to do the same.
    "War is diplomacy carried out by other means." von Clausewitz
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Every subculture has their 1%'rs; I admire their commitment to a cause and admire their unrelenting position to fight what they see as an attempt to violate 'their' lifestyle. They are the hardcore believers and we would be sorely adrift without them.

    The truth of the matter is that 99% of us won't know what we'll do if confiscation became a reality. We have not had to face that situation and I pray we don't ever have to. I do know that folks who ID themselves as the 1%'s will be the first rounded up and declared 'domestic terrorists' and used as examples for others. It is then that we will all seek to find ourselves the means to resist or the desire to get along and capitulate.

    Optimists point to Heller vs DC and say it will never happen and we can hope that the laws will continue to change in our favor but we still have a VERY long row to hoe before we can collect the full fruits of those labors. We can hope and pray that some demagogue doesn't come to power and decide that gun owners are a threat to stability. (The last person you want to see assassinated with a firearm is Barry Choomgang because that will, more than anything else, become the cause for a sweeping reversal of Heller, total confiscation in this country, and a police state the likes of which only Orwell could hint at.)

    We need the 1%'rs, we need their passion, their fire and their desire to remind the rest of us that real danger is still out there.

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    I can agree with the sentiment, but I think we need to give the legal system a chance to work right now, because it is. Not just with Heller, but look at where we've come from 30-40 years ago. I wasn't there, but from what I can tell, sentiment was sorely against gun owners, even in conservative areas. Now there's no one in their right mind who would think of trying to push for a nation wide handgun ban, but I hear that was a hot topic in the 60s and 70s.

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    You are correct and that was a result of a chain of highly publicized assassinations of MLK, JFK, and RFK. The sentiment was strongly against their ownership because they were tools of evil people and a generation that had hope saw that hope snuffed out one by one.

    Tin Hat Time: If you start seeing a chain of prominent US political and social leaders getting whacked over the next 5 years, it's time to start caching folks! :shock:

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    docwatson wrote:
    Every subculture has their 1%'rs; I admire their commitment to a cause and admire their unrelenting position to fight what they see as an attempt to violate 'their' lifestyle. They are the hardcore believers and we would be sorely adrift without them.
    Having once come very close to choking to death, I no longer fear dying. I detest and fear the idea of being living and unfree much more than the idea of being dead. I've frequently asked myself since I was rather young if I thought guns were worth dying for, and the answer I've always come up with is yes, but it's better to kill those who try to take them before running for it. I honestly consider that mindset a constitutional and moral obligation.

    That said, I have high hopes for the future, and frankly, even with Obama threatening to get elected, the future is brighter than it's been in a while. Between how well organised we are through the web, the proliferation and acceptance of carry permits, the recent Heller ruling, and the dismal political failure of the Clinton ban, we have a lot on our side. We here are even changing peoples minds on guns directly by visibly demonstrating they are harmless! Certainly I have higher hopes for the future than I did as a gunless kid in his early teens watching Clinton rape our freedoms. We are well organized, well prepared, and ready for political challenges, probably without having to result to suicidal last stands, which is more than I would have expected 15 years ago.
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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Gunslinger wrote:
    "War is diplomacy carried out by other means." von Clausewitz
    +1

    asforme wrote:
    Now there's no one in their right mind who would think of trying to push for a nation wide handgun ban, but I hear that was a hot topic in the 60s and 70s.
    Obama, Pelosi, Boxer and others have within the last few years proposed exactly that - a national handgun ban. Wonder if Pelosi would turn in her concealed handgun she carries?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    deepdiver wrote:
    Obama, Pelosi, Boxer and others
    I said no one in their right mind. They don't meet the qualifications. But my point was that we're winning both in the arena of public opinion and in the legal system. No need to resort to war when we're winning without it.

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    asforme wrote:
    deepdiver wrote:
    Obama, Pelosi, Boxer and others
    I said no one in their right mind. They don't meet the qualifications. But my point was that we're winning both in the arena of public opinion and in the legal system. No need to resort to war when we're winning without it.
    I knew exactly what you meant and was making my own point with your words without spelling it out.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    docwatson wrote:
    Every subculture has their 1%'rs; I admire their commitment to a cause and admire their unrelenting position to fight what they see as an attempt to violate 'their' lifestyle. They are the hardcore believers and we would be sorely adrift without them.

    The truth of the matter is that 99% of us won't know what we'll do if confiscation became a reality. We have not had to face that situation and I pray we don't ever have to. I do know that folks who ID themselves as the 1%'s will be the first rounded up and declared 'domestic terrorists' and used as examples for others. It is then that we will all seek to find ourselves the means to resist or the desire to get along and capitulate.

    Optimists point to Heller vs DC and say it will never happen and we can hope that the laws will continue to change in our favor but we still have a VERY long row to hoe before we can collect the full fruits of those labors. We can hope and pray that some demagogue doesn't come to power and decide that gun owners are a threat to stability. (The last person you want to see assassinated with a firearm is Barry Choomgang because that will, more than anything else, become the cause for a sweeping reversal of Heller, total confiscation in this country, and a police state the likes of which only Orwell could hint at.)

    We need the 1%'rs, we need their passion, their fire and their desire to remind the rest of us that real danger is still out there.
    +1 Excellent post.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    asforme wrote:
    I can agree with the sentiment, but I think we need to give the legal system a chance to work right now, because it is. Not just with Heller, but look at where we've come from 30-40 years ago. I wasn't there, but from what I can tell, sentiment was sorely against gun owners, even in conservative areas. Now there's no one in their right mind who would think of trying to push for a nation wide handgun ban, but I hear that was a hot topic in the 60s and 70s.
    I was there, but the climate was far different. CCWs were very rare, and if the cops outside of urban areas saw you OCing, they didn't give it a second glance. And I'm talking about Illinois! (DuPage County) Even in the urban areas, if you had a good reason for carrying a gun, charges were rarely, if ever, filed. But then, gang violence was nothing compared to today and it was the Mafia that did the drug trade. No drug wars because of a monopoly. After Kennedy, Marty King and Bobby were killed, things did change--overtly. Still, the suburbs and rural areas really didn't by that much. Just much more publicity about guns that never existed in the past. The backlash to the gun "laws," of course, was the push to CCW capability in many more states. When I was a kid, only PIs/cops carried concealed. When I went to shoot my .22 Woodsman, it was on my hip. The only encounter I ever had was from a State Cop who told me not to shoot at bottles, but buy some paper plates. You did have to get a FID, but that was no big deal and they were 100% issued. Times have changed, in IL for the worse seeing as how they gave us Butthead Obooba, but so have the states that recognize the RTKB--by a lot. The only real talk on handgun bans that I recall from the mid-late 60s was Saturday Night Specials. Never a general ban. But that was growing up in IL, like I said. Even in the early '70s when I was stationed in CA, the attitude wasn't anti-gun by any means. And that includes living in Sacramento for a year--now the People's Democratic Republik of Sacramento...
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Mike is absolutely wrong in the fact that perhaps 3% of firearms owners would "resist" firearms confiscation...

    ...the actual government study number is around 30%.

    So if there are 80 million firearms owners in the US, with over 300 million firearms... well you do the math. At best LEO's, National Guards, Marines and Army units would be out-numbered by at least 100 to 1.

    This is why, during the 90's under the Klintonista regime, there were questionares circulated to military units regarding their thoughts on confronting (fighting) American Citizens who would resist martial law, gun confiscation, etc.

    The results obtained in the questionares were disturbing to the cockroaches in charge. A substantial number of military would not obey orders--with a frightening percentage actually indicating that they would switch sides.

    What you all here have to do is sober up and fast! Confiscation is a real prospect.

    There are too manyrealistic scenarios that may unfold in the near future (months) that could cause a national crisis: An attack on Iran would cause a major war, sever oil shortages, panic and an economic crisis (a in the derivities market imploding).

    Imagine all this with Hussain (the gun hater) Obama in charge--or even that donkey McCain calling the shots.

    Forget what SCOTUS just said--these clowns will ignore the law and do what they want.

    But what will you do?



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    Takezo wrote:
    Mike is absolutely wrong in the fact that perhaps 3% of firearms owners would "resist" firearms confiscation...

    ...the actual government study number is around 30%.

    So if there are 80 million firearms owners in the US, with over 300 million firearms... well you do the math. At best LEO's, National Guards, Marines and Army units would be out-numbered by at least 100 to 1.

    This is why, during the 90's under the Klintonista regime, there were questionares circulated to military units regarding their thoughts on confronting (fighting) American Citizens who would resist martial law, gun confiscation, etc.

    The results obtained in the questionares were disturbing to the cockroaches in charge. A substantial number of military would not obey orders--with a frightening percentage actually indicating that they would switch sides.
    Cite?

    It's not that I find those stats unbelievable, but I'm interested from where they came.

    Nonetheless, you'll find that most gun control in this country includes grandfathering provisions, specifically to avoid confiscation. Not to mention that it would be nigh impossible to identify the bulk of gun owners, due to private sales. At this point I'd like to note that McCain's desire to eliminate private sales would help boost the number of gun owners the government knows about... But I digress.

    The real threat is ammo restriction. They can't take your guns, but they can make it harder for you to get ammo. And they can take advantage of the fact that in many states, the 4th amendment protections do not apply to motor vehicles. I think Big Brother has learned that invading your property and shooting your wife, children, and pets isn't the best strategy.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    What someone says on paper is often entirely different than what the truth might be. This is why studies of statistics don't always implicate the truth of the real world.

    That 30% is a comfy, cozy, heart warming figure, but the proverbial smelly crap hitting the air changer is the only wau that it could be verified or disproved.
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    No Tea Party is called for tonight. I find such conversation overboard for our circumstances. Contrary to how some people might choose to paint us, we are not extremists. Hope that it never comes to that.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I'm an optimist. I think we're winning, and winning big. Not universally and nothing is permanant, but I think the trends are going our way.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Jim675 wrote:
    I'm an optimist. I think we're winning, and winning big. Not universally and nothing is permanant, but I think the trends are going our way.
    +1 Wish I had said it first.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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