'More gun laws would mean civil war' Mike Vanderboegh LtE Madison, WI Capital Times

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Takezo wrote:

Mike is absolutely wrong in the fact that perhaps 3% of firearms owners would "resist" firearms confiscation...

...the actual government study number is around 30%.

So if there are 80 million firearms owners in the US, with over 300 million firearms... well you do the math. At best LEO's, National Guards, Marines and Army units would be out-numbered by at least 100 to 1.

This is why, during the 90's under the Klintonista regime, there were questionares circulated to military units regarding their thoughts on confronting (fighting) American Citizens who would resist martial law, gun confiscation, etc.

The results obtained in the questionares were disturbing to the cockroaches in charge. A substantial number of military would not obey orders--with a frightening percentage actually indicating that they would switch sides.

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Cite?

It's not that I find those stats unbelievable, but I'm interested from where they came.

Nonetheless, you'll find that most gun control in this country includes grandfathering provisions, specifically to avoid confiscation. Not to mention that it would be nigh impossible to identify the bulk of gun owners, due to private sales. At this point I'd like to note that McCain's desire to eliminate private sales would help boost the number of gun owners the government knows about... But I digress.

The real threat is ammo restriction. They can't take your guns, but they can make it harder for you to get ammo. And they can take advantage of the fact that in many states, the 4th amendment protections do not apply to motor vehicles. I think Big Brother has learned that invading your property and shooting your wife, children, and pets isn't the best strategy.

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What someone says on paper is often entirely different than what the truth might be. This is why studies of statistics don't always implicate the truth of the real world.

That 30% is a comfy, cozy, heart warming figure, but the proverbial smelly crap hitting the air changer is the only wau that it could be verified or disproved.

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No Tea Party is called for tonight. I find such conversation overboard for our circumstances. Contrary to how some people might choose to paint us, we are not extremists. Hope that it never comes to that.

Yata hey

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I'm an optimist. I think we're winning, and winning big. Not universally and nothing is permanant, but I think the trends are going our way.

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Jim675 wrote:

I'm an optimist. I think we're winning, and winning big. Not universally and nothing is permanant, but I think the trends are going our way.

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+1 Wish I had said it first.

Yata hey

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Takezo wrote:

The results obtained in the questionares were disturbing to the cockroaches in charge. A substantial number of military would not obey orders--with a frightening percentage actually indicating that they would switch sides.

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That surprising and heartening at the same time. I would have thought that military people were brainwashed into following orders above anything else. Do you have any links to this stuff?

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AWDstylez wrote:

Takezo wrote:

The results obtained in the questionares were disturbing to the cockroaches in charge. A substantial number of military would not obey orders--with a frightening percentage actually indicating that they would switch sides.

Click to expand...

That surprising and heartening at the same time. I would have thought that military people were brainwashed into following orders above anything else. Do you have any links to this stuff?

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Interesting. Did you reach that conclusion because members of the US military on average have a higher IQ than the general population? Or because on average they have a higher educational level than the general population? Or perhaps because they are on average better traveled (as in world traveled) than the majority of the population. No wait, maybe because they on average have a far higher level of technical proficiency and expertise than the general population. No, that doesn't make any sense either.

Actually, I can think of no reason anyone would think that US "military people" of today were brainwashed into following orders above anything else except for elitist stereotypes propagated primarily by the liberal media, leftist activists and democrat congressmen and women.

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To further DeepDiver's point, the US military has always been succesful because, at its best, it encourages and rewards independant thought. Soviet-style militaries were hamstrung when a leader was removed. Doesn't much phase us, the Pvt becomes the SGT who becomes the SFC who becomes the LT who becomes the CPT etc.

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deepdiver wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

Takezo wrote:

The results obtained in the questionares were disturbing to the cockroaches in charge. A substantial number of military would not obey orders--with a frightening percentage actually indicating that they would switch sides.

Click to expand...

That surprising and heartening at the same time. I would have thought that military people were brainwashed into following orders above anything else. Do you have any links to this stuff?

Click to expand...

Interesting. Did you reach that conclusion because members of the US military on average have a higher IQ than the general population? Or because on average they have a higher educational level than the general population? Or perhaps because they are on average better traveled (as in world traveled) than the majority of the population. No wait, maybe because they on average have a far higher level of technical proficiency and expertise than the general population. No, that doesn't make any sense either.

Actually, I can think of no reason anyone would think that US "military people" of today were brainwashed into following orders above anything else except for elitist stereotypes propagated primarily by the liberal media, leftist activists and democrat congressmen and women.

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Hahaha! Prove any of that (A US military/government survey doesn't prove anything, I want to see an unbiased third party)and just maybe I'll take it seriously.

As for them being brainwashed... they actually think the "war on tareUH" is about defendingthe US (based on the fact thatthey volunteered for it and not many people would knowingly put their lives on the line for a corporate money war). Case closed. If you can get them to believe that Saddam is a threat to the US or that they're actually looking for Bin Laden, you can get them to believe anything. The military is trained to do what their superiors tell them. If you think for one second they wouldn't string you up because the government proclaimed you a terrorist and said it was for the safety of the childrenthen you have a rude awakening coming. This isn't WWII with everyone and their mother enlisting for honorable reasons in a just war. The majority of the current military force is made up of drop outs, poor kids, people with nothing better to due with their lives, and a handful of those normal peoplethat actually believe they're actually doing something goodover in that sandbox. Any one of those groups would turn on you in a second if told to.

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You drastically underestimate the military's contempt of government and appreciation for honor and country.

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Jim675 wrote:

You drastically underestimate the military's contempt of government and appreciation for honor and country.

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Or maybe I just don't follow the logic. Certainly they didn't have that contempt beforehand or they would not have enlisted. Why would someone that dislikes corrupt government and is all about honor and country sign their lives over tothe government to go due its bidding in a war that is clearly illegal and illegitimate?


Oh and btw, "free thinking" is deceptive. You don't actually have free thought when you're given the confines within which you must think or when certain things are already presupposed into the spectrum of debate.

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AWDstylez wrote:

Jim675 wrote:SNIP ... Certainly they didn't have that contempt beforehand or they would not have enlisted.

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I assure you that I did just that.

Why would someone that dislikes corrupt government and is all about honor and country sign their lives over tothe government to go due its bidding...

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Youthful idealism? A sense of duty? Employment? Travel? $25K? Cool toys? Medical for a new baby? Becuase the government isn't the same as the founders' ideals and one of them deserves patriotism?

in a war that is clearly illegal and illegitimate?

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I suspect that no matter what any of us believe on these matters they would deserve their own threads on a more appropriate forum.

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AWDstylez wrote:
SNIP:
"The majority of the current military force is made up of drop outs, poor kids, people with nothing better to due with their lives, and a handful of those normal peoplethat actually believe they're actually doing something goodover in that sandbox."

I think John Kerry had a similiar quote once. Remeber the picture from Iraq saying "Halp us JOn Carry. We r stuk here n Irack"? It didn't help him much.

I'm just suggesting that you do a little better research and separate the directives from the civilian leaders and the actions of the military. Regardless of whether it should have been authorized, it was and keeps getting re-authorized. The troops are not as blind or foolish as you believe.

Just out of curiosity, do I sound utterly illiterate to you? I was an enlisted man for 12 years. I already had my computer science degree when I enlisted.

Its no way to get rich, but I remember that time and my fellow soldiers with pride.

I also had many of the most intelligent, thought-provoking conversations I've ever had sitting in a fighting position at 3 AM in the middle of nowhere. Good people.

Edit: Spelling, too funny.

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AWDstylez wrote:

This isn't WWII with everyone and their mother enlisting for honorable reasons in a just war. The majority of the current military force is made up of drop outs, poor kids, people with nothing better to due with their lives, and a handful of those normal peoplethat actually believe they're actually doing something goodover in that sandbox. Any one of those groups would turn on you in a second if told to.

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AWD, I served in Iraq all of 2005 and can say that your perception of the military is antiquated by about 30 years. There are no 'mindless drones' and many of them believe that the fight is good. Some don't but they fight for their friends and their unit and thier own pride and that's fine, too.

Overall, the troops I worked with were intelligent, driven, dedicated, and committed to the mission. Frankly, I saw more officers that were utter douche bags than anything else. Your average grunt and airman were kicking ass and taking names and were helping rebuild an infrastructure that the Baathist Party has ignored for 30+ years. Many were there to get their GI Bill and better life more than anything else and you know what? Military service is an honorable means to a better life that many on this board have used for themselves.

Truly, I haven't met a single soldier who would turn on their own country if asked and many would refuse an unlawful order and more than a few I know would turn active guerrilla if pushed too hard. Many folks fail to recognize that we're pretty damn good at insurgency ourselves and we keep getting better at it every time we fight a COIN we learn newer and better methods of doing it; the idea of a bunch of old Vietnam vets and a bunch of their Iraq-vet grand kids getting together and starting an insurgency should give *any* gun grabbing totalitarian a significant reason to reconsider their position.

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AWDstylez wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

Takezo wrote:

The results obtained in the questionares were disturbing to the cockroaches in charge. A substantial number of military would not obey orders--with a frightening percentage actually indicating that they would switch sides.

Click to expand...

That surprising and heartening at the same time. I would have thought that military people were brainwashed into following orders above anything else. Do you have any links to this stuff?

Click to expand...

Interesting. Did you reach that conclusion because members of the US military on average have a higher IQ than the general population? Or because on average they have a higher educational level than the general population? Or perhaps because they are on average better traveled (as in world traveled) than the majority of the population. No wait, maybe because they on average have a far higher level of technical proficiency and expertise than the general population. No, that doesn't make any sense either.

Actually, I can think of no reason anyone would think that US "military people" of today were brainwashed into following orders above anything else except for elitist stereotypes propagated primarily by the liberal media, leftist activists and democrat congressmen and women.

Click to expand...

Hahaha! Prove any of that (A US military/government survey doesn't prove anything, I want to see an unbiased third party)and just maybe I'll take it seriously.

As for them being brainwashed... they actually think the "war on tareUH" is about defendingthe US (based on the fact thatthey volunteered for it and not many people would knowingly put their lives on the line for a corporate money war). Case closed. If you can get them to believe that Saddam is a threat to the US or that they're actually looking for Bin Laden, you can get them to believe anything. The military is trained to do what their superiors tell them. If you think for one second they wouldn't string you up because the government proclaimed you a terrorist and said it was for the safety of the childrenthen you have a rude awakening coming. This isn't WWII with everyone and their mother enlisting for honorable reasons in a just war. The majority of the current military force is made up of drop outs, poor kids, people with nothing better to due with their lives, and a handful of those normal peoplethat actually believe they're actually doing something goodover in that sandbox. Any one of those groups would turn on you in a second if told to.

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Ah, Grasshopp-ah, I see you studied at the "Nu-uh School" of Argument-Fu. You have used the "Don't Confuse Me With the Facts" defense and countered with the "Go Waste Time Getting More Facts I Will Also Ignore" counter attack. I bow to your superior illogic, irrationality and fallacy. I will resign before you pull out the "That's Not What Jon Stewart Said" can of whoop-a$$.

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:lol:, Deep.

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AbNo wrote:

:lol:, Deep.

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And sticky

Yata hey

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deepdiver wrote:

Ah, Grasshopp-ah, I see you studied at the "Nu-uh School" of Argument-Fu. You have used the "Don't Confuse Me With the Facts" defense and countered with the "Go Waste Time Getting More Facts I Will Also Ignore" counter attack. I bow to your superior illogic, irrationality and fallacy. I will resign before you pull out the "That's Not What Jon Stewart Said" can of whoop-a$$.

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Or perhaps you simply are unable to support any of what you said. People claim a lot of things on the internet, just because you said it doesn't make it fact. You just through out a bunch of statistics and if you can't show where you got them from, no one is going to take that as "fact." So in actuality, I'm ignoring your opinion, not the facts.



docwatson wrote:

Truly, I haven't met a single soldier who would turn on their own country if asked and many would refuse an unlawful order and more than a few I know would turn active guerrilla if pushed too hard. Many folks fail to recognize that we're pretty damn good at insurgency ourselves and we keep getting better at it every time we fight a COIN we learn newer and better methods of doing it; the idea of a bunch of old Vietnam vets and a bunch of their Iraq-vet grand kids getting together and starting an insurgency should give *any* gun grabbing totalitarian a significant reason to reconsider their position.

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As already stated, I find that pretty surprising, but since you have the first-hand experience I'll take your word for it. I hope you're right, but I suppose we'll find out when the time comes. At this point it isn't really a matter of "if," but "when."

As for why they fight and the honor of it all, I still disagree. There is such a thing as doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. People in Vietnam didn't have a choice because it was it was a draft force. Everyone has a choice now. If you choose to better your life at the expense of others I find that less than honorable. Obviously no one looks at it that way ormost of them wouldn't be doing it because as yousaid, they are good people. They've just been duped into believe they are doing the right thing, hencemy original brainwashing comment. However, as Jim675 said, that debate is its own separate topic.

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AWDstylez wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

Ah, Grasshopp-ah, I see you studied at the "Nu-uh School" of Argument-Fu. You have used the "Don't Confuse Me With the Facts" defense and countered with the "Go Waste Time Getting More Facts I Will Also Ignore" counter attack. I bow to your superior illogic, irrationality and fallacy. I will resign before you pull out the "That's Not What Jon Stewart Said" can of whoop-a$$.

Click to expand...

Or perhaps you simply are unable to support any of what you said. People claim a lot of things on the internet, just because you said it doesn't make it fact. You just through out a bunch of statistics and if you can't show where you got them from, no one is going to take that as "fact." So in actuality, I'm ignoring your opinion, not the facts.



docwatson wrote:

Truly, I haven't met a single soldier who would turn on their own country if asked and many would refuse an unlawful order and more than a few I know would turn active guerrilla if pushed too hard. Many folks fail to recognize that we're pretty damn good at insurgency ourselves and we keep getting better at it every time we fight a COIN we learn newer and better methods of doing it; the idea of a bunch of old Vietnam vets and a bunch of their Iraq-vet grand kids getting together and starting an insurgency should give *any* gun grabbing totalitarian a significant reason to reconsider their position.

Click to expand...

As already stated, I find that pretty surprising, but since you have the first-hand experience I'll take your word for it. I hope you're right, but I suppose we'll find out when the time comes. At this point it isn't really a matter of "if," but "when."

As for why they fight and the honor of it all, I still disagree. There is such a thing as doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. People in Vietnam didn't have a choice because it was it was a draft force. Everyone has a choice now. If you choose to better your life at the expense of others I find that less than honorable. Obviously no one looks at it that way ormost of them wouldn't be doing it because as yousaid, they are good people. They've just been duped into believe they are doing the right thing, hencemy original brainwashing comment. However, as Jim675 said, that debate is its own separate topic.

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You're dead wrong. We had a choice in Vietnam. The Air Force, Navy and 99+% of the Marines who served were volunteers. Those who really wanted to get out of serving had many ways to do so--especially the college educated. I had quite a few friends who did. Getting a 1Y was not difficult. There are some exceptions, of course, but those I knew who were there, were there with the best intentions. We didn't lose the war on the rice paddies or in the skies; the politicians lost it when they lost their balls.

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Gunslinger wrote:

You're dead wrong. We had a choice in Vietnam. The Air Force, Navy and 99+% of the Marines who served were volunteers. Those who really wanted to get out of serving had many ways to do so--especially the college educated. I had quite a few friends who did. Getting a 1Y was not difficult. There are some exceptions, of course, but those I knew who were there, were there with the best intentions. We didn't lose the war on the rice paddies or in the skies; the politicians lost it when they lost their balls.

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That war was lost from the day we entered it. Remind meagain how waging war in Vietnam was necessary forour national security or was in any way defending thiscountry.

Of course the people on the grounds have the best intentions; they wouldn't be putting their lives on the line otherwise. That's why I mean no disrespect to the intentions of the people on the ground. I just wish they'd think because risking their lives todefend our countrywhen that's actually the last they are doing is a waste. "Serve your country" is supposed to mean protect it from immanent threat, not do the government's bidding.

Again though, the legality, logic,or purposeof the numerous foreign wars this country has chose to involve itself in is another topic.